Semantics are all we have! Obviously i am not saying the top kds didn't trade. I'm saying you cannot prove it, just like Fates cannot prove his kingdom didn't cheat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
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Semantics are all we have! Obviously i am not saying the top kds didn't trade. I'm saying you cannot prove it, just like Fates cannot prove his kingdom didn't cheat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I believe somewhere in the 'Lower kd sizes' thread there is a comment (I believe from you Bishop) that top kds are not sustainable without trading.
The top kds were certainly being sustained, thus, you must have been trading.
Isn't that proof enough?
not really - about as much "proof" that the ghettos obviously do not trade because they are not topping the charts. TBH i don't remember making a remark like that, but i am in favour of trading so it is not impossible that i said it.
Did you trade before trading was legal Bishop?
ya, of course
and there it is. It would be silly to assume the opposite and yet proof is "required" to say that top kds traded? It's common knowledge. All the top kds know they cheated, even if it was only trading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
In fact, everyone knew top kds cheated, even if they weren't in top kds. Going into the burden of proof is so very pointless.
Often in discussion like these the top kds get targetted as the big bad cheaters but the reality is quite different, everyone cheated from the lowest kd to the biggest.
That's true, but the discussion was that there's no proof that top kds cheated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
In reality, the mid-tear kds prolly cheated more. They tried to cheat their way to the top, but they lacked the raw skill that the top kds possessed so they got stuck below them.
Yes, proof is required, otherwise you should believe people if they say they didn't trade and play in a top kd - works both ways right? I don't see how it is ok to stand on the morale high ground and claim the top cheat and you didn't, and have it accepted because you are in a ghetto/mid ranked etc. From what I've seen this age and last the majority of deletions were in mid ranked kds. Accusations of cheating, frankly, annoy me - because accusations that cannot be proved incorrect are nasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
edit: not really trying to direct that at anyone personally.
There is probably no proof that top kds cheated but its become like a universal law, top kd = must have cheated anything else is impossible.Quote:
That's true, but the discussion was that there's no proof that top kds cheated.
The likely hood of cheating went up dramatically if you were in a mid-tear/top kd. If someone from Pansies had said "Nope, I've never cheated" they could very well be telling the truth, but it's much more likely that s/he's lying. Likewise, if someone from a no-name ghetto says "Nah, never cheated", that's a little easier to swallow. People don't really trade into ghettos, ghettos don't really have any kind of advantage, so it's unlikely that the ghetto was cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
It's a matter of playing the %s.
I can't speak for Fates, but the only claim of cheating I'll ever throw around is that top kds traded, i.e. cheated as I didn't interact with the top kds draw up claims of anything else. I don't think this needs any proof considering most top kds openly admit that they traded.Quote:
From what I've seen this age and last the majority of deletions were in mid ranked kds. Accusations of cheating, frankly, annoy me - because accusations that cannot be proved incorrect are nasty.
Anything outside of that though, such as X-logging or multi'ing, I think are claims that DO need to be justified as even in a crowd that considered trading to be ok, these types of cheating were not.
If you consider trading to have been cheating like I did, then cheating was the only explaination of how the top kds existed aside from nearly super-human dedication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
However, those that were ok with trading that still claimed the top were cheating were prolly just bogus claims.
But in reality thats not much proof is it? Those are just assumptions made. Im not saying they didnt cheat but for them it was a socially acceptable thing. But its pretty tiresome that one from a underdog person is pretty much safe from anything and can throw accusations at the top without any kind of real proof cause thats the way it is.Quote:
If you consider trading to have been cheating like I did, then cheating was the only explaination of how the top kds existed aside from nearly super-human dedication.
I already gave a proof which I'm still not sure why Bishop didn't accept it.
It's a perfectly sound argument. Bringing ghettos into the argument is invalid because the argument only deals with sustainability, an issue mid-tear and ghettos didn't have to constantly fight off, at least not in the extreme that the top kds did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
I resent those implications. I have been monarch roughly 60%-75% of the time in the past and under my supervision, we never, ever traded prior to trading being legal.Quote:
In reality, the mid-tear kds prolly cheated more. They tried to cheat their way to the top, but they lacked the raw skill that the top kds possessed so they got stuck below them.
We started using irc only in the past 5 ages or so and even now, irc usage, while strongly encouraged, is not mandatory.
We always used pimp as a synchronization tool, but again, we accepted forum intel from those with restricted Pimp access (but 95% of the KD used Pimp out of their own free will, because it was convenient to do so).
We've eliminated some players, but for the longest time, we had a very lenient "one attack per day" minimum requirements (raised it to like 1.25 in the last 6 ages or so) in accordance with the recommended minimum number of logins in the guide (but the vast majority of the kingdom had the motivation to do more, again out of their own free will) and we always had an impartial system in place to forgive the occasional slip.
I like to think we've played this game pretty much by the book.
Point is, I have toiled very hard for our KD to remain competitive while being very understanding, fair and by the rules. If you chose to take a shortcut, its not my place to berate you, but don't cheapen my efforts by pretending that everyone cheats just to justify yourselves.
And btw, trading did give us a huge boost once it was legalized. I could see how KDs who traded all along would have had a definite edge when trading was illegal (not saying that was all there was to it, but the trading would have been a definite edge).
Ever since trading was legalized, I believe the amount of cheating has dropped significantly. And i don't mean the drop coming from trading, but from the general know-how and attitude change.
in the 20ies, majority of better kd players were all time up to date regarding where to look for and find best proxies, what sites and stuff was blacklisted by swirve etc..at least at some point of their career until they got a matching country or emailed Blake some BS about moving away. And little later, setting up CC proxy when needing a sitting for few days was basically top kd 101.
And since knowing that u were already technically a cheater + knowing well how to do it + being confident u are not gonna be caught meant that the line seemed a lot thinner and lowering urself to stuff like xlogging, multing, farming whatever seemed a lot more tempting to a lot wider audience than it seems now.
And when free and working proxies got too rare was when when people actually started buying proxies from matching countries, not to mention the login site..Anyways that made xlog and cheating just so easy that it was ridiculous.
Obviously there are still cheaters in this game and among top kds, but i just think the general picture looks a lot more black and white and less gray then it did b4.
Regarding ghettos and cheating, my first ever age in battlefields, my semi-ghetto improved a lot during the age, but near eoa got 8 delitions. Turned out that monarch didn't know how to trade nor xlog.
Best kd ever wise, I believe there have been quite many kds who have been scary good during their short stints of existence or had a few standout ages, but only Pansies and Brute Force had continuous enough success in the top and longevity in it to stand way above the rest. Playboys obviously deserves a mention as well for the amount of crowns and ages of playing in top (but kinda like some of the best Abs kds i have in mind, I've sensed em to actually being one the very best in only a few very rare ages, usually just a lot of good diplo and naps and mediocre top10 level playing).
Wait a minute... Assumptions? We've had players from a whole hell of a lot of TOP kingdoms that ADMIT THEY TRADED ILLEGALLY right here in these forums over the years. I remember a whole lot of them when legalizing trading was under consideration. And yes, BISHOP was also in those threads. He never admitted to trading or anything but now he asks for proof?? Assumptions my ass...Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
There were many kingdoms that prided themselves back in the day with playing by the rules. And we got stepped on by the top that traded and stacked their kingdoms.
And Trading was just the tip of the iceberg. Let's continue with account collecting & x-logging. Always loved the "yea, we collected accounts and had all the log-in info for all the kingdom yet we never stooped to x-logging". lol.
Yes assumptions, to have any real evidence you would need to experince it yourself, second hand information seldom is viable evidence. But please provide me with proof then, it cant be hard for you then if it was so obvious that the top cheated. Besides you msised the point, its people like you that think cause they have a underdog position that they are safe from any accusations "I cant cheat cause i play in a sucky Kd!!!!" Thats so bloody tiresome.Quote:
Wait a minute... Assumptions? We've had players from a whole hell of a lot of TOP kingdoms that ADMIT THEY TRADED ILLEGALLY right here in these forums over the years.
Yea, sure, "Hey we suck but at least we dont cheat!!!" .. no i dont believe you, you got stepped on cause you were worse players nothing else.Quote:
There were many kingdoms that prided themselves back in the day with playing by the rules. And we got stepped on by the top that traded and stacked their kingdoms.
That says more about your mentality than anything else, yet again you carry no proof and accusing other more active kds usually is the noobs way of excusing his own crappy playing. But hey, it cant be easy being a worthless players all this years :(Quote:
And Trading was just the tip of the iceberg. Let's continue with account collecting & x-logging. Always loved the "yea, we collected accounts and had all the log-in info for all the kingdom yet we never stooped to x-logging". lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fates Warning
Are you saying if you collected accounts you automatically X logged ?
We allways had Kingdom accounts since the very first days and never Xlogged when I was moanarch .... no need for it allways found the right person to fill the account ... only ghettos at heart Xlogged.
I've already provided proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
Some ghetto nubs find it hard to believe that a lot of top kds thought xlogging was bottom of the barrel cheating, even though they knew all login info and could easily do it. They will never believe you, so don't bother. Especially ghetto nubs like Fates Warning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaer Hurlin
correlation is not causation, it only indicates relevance.
See what I mean... we have the log-in information for all our provinces and everyone has to just 'trust' a kingdom that was already cheating to begin with. Sorry, don't buy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
Ghetto maybe, played by the rules unlike you Dharan. nub? Don't think so. I was playing Falcons Eye when you were probably still in Diapers. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
A comment made by Bishop in another thread is not proof, its just his own opinion (if you provided something else I did not see it in the thread). In reality the only real way to prove top KDs cheated would to be to take real time screen shots of conversations while it was occurring for every Top KD that existed. Otherwise there is no proof to the phrase: "All top KDs cheated"
Once you use or imply the use of "All" you must prove that every single KD in the "Top" cheated after you explain how you judge the word "Top"
So unless you had access to everyone's channels (or MSN conversations) and monitored them constantly and took screenies, then you in essence have no proof, just assumptions and inferences.
IRC transcripts are hardly proof since they can be doctored (in relation to those Hall transcripts).
The comment Bishop made was fact, not his opinion. Top kds ARE only sustainable through trading. If they had to waste time clearing out inactives/get rid of less actives, they would suffer big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coke
Also, I haven't said "All top kds cheated". I said "Top kds cheated". A perfectly provable argument.
That is a argument (hence opinion) not fact, no matter how many caps you use. In addition nowadays trading is legal and with reduced player base trading may now be required. It in no way implies that trading was required to sustain a top KD in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
If your gonna go that route then that also means that there are Top KDs that didn't cheat. But even then, where is the proof?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
You have zero proof they didn't cheat. None at all. This is exactly my argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fates Warning
Logically not, if trading were impossible you'd still have the same top kingdoms - trading made them easier to sustain but being able to trade would not make up for a fundamental lack of skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
You would not have the same top kds. You'd have the same leaders, but not the same kds. You may not even have the same leaders since some of them would have likely just gotten frustrated at having to put up with people who only give you 1 hit a day in war and just quit the game.
Either way, I'm done arguing over something that everyone already knows. You guys are asking for the impossible. Hell, none of you can definitively prove that you are actually people.
I find it quite sad that you guys can't just own up your past decisions, even with no possibility of punishment. I mean, wtf do you think it going to happen?
Considering there was a moratorium announced on past trading i don't think anyone really cares about "owning up". Its more to do with this perceived idea that top kds cheated left, right and center while mid kds are virtuously clean.Its real easy to make claims on the net, because they cant be backed up.
1. I've already said that mid-tear's cheated up and down, even worse than top kds.
2. I've already said my only beef with top kds were trading issues, which 90% of the community was ok with.
Either way, opinions are set. People are going to think what they want to think about the top, regardless of what anyone says.
yes, i agree with that
Wrong Bishop. If they didn't illegally trade back then you would not have had the same top kingdoms age after age and literally year after year . Province turnover was and still is a b*tch. They circumvented the turnover problem by illegal trades. A problem the rest of us had to deal with by either 'random' defectors or noobs while they traded in known skilled/hyperactive players. Sometimes from OUR kingdoms. Gave them a huge advantage over the kingdoms that played by the rules. If you don't understand that then you are just putting blinders on...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Fundamental lack of skill? They didn't recruit or trade in players with a fundamental lack of skill. Us ghettos had to deal with those provinces... not top kingdoms.
Sure there were many mid-tiered kingdoms or ghettos that tried to cheat as the top did... doesn't erase the fact that the top back then DID recruit, DID trade and DID collect accounts. They cheated.
Look I really don't care about whether or not Top KDs cheated w/e, I wasn't playing in the top back then so I really could care less. What does bother me is how you assume its a fact when it really is not. It is merely, at most, a consensus. There is a huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fates Warning
You guys are talking about trading? Bloody trading lol?
There was not a single top or even just good kd that i am aware of, who considered trading even remotely being as cheating or who didn't do it, so stop the BS, it's just ridiculous.
xlog, multing and farming was considered cheating, trading simply wasn't.
My first kingdom, a ghetto, traded and tried to x-log. My second kingdom, also a ghetto, did same. The third kingdom I played, ALSO a ghetto, was trading heavily. All Genesis kingdoms I played in traded. GUW and standoff, same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fates Warning
When I was not tired enough to be monarch, I was getting enough trading requests from ghettos to fill 2 kingdoms every age.
So cut the bull****, it was not about top or ghetto. EVERYBODY TRADED, if you didn't know, means you were too stupid to see the clues or too unstable to be trusted with such information. The fact that some monarchs CLAIM they didn't traded, means absolutely nothing as their pages, co-monarch, best-mates did the things for them, without their knowledge.
So your venomous spit upwards towards the top kingdoms falls back right on your head.
My first age was age 3 (or 4 cant remember was awhile ago), my first Kingdom was a mid tier warring Kingdom.
Never broke the top 50 for the first couple of ages I was there but loved to war.
The first age I was there they traded in a top dwarf player to teach all the new people how to play attackers, the second age I was there (age 4 or 5) we broke the players code of cheating and down loaded ICQ and used that to co-ordinate our wars with then we broke the cardinal rule of the utopian community at the time and did BLACK OPS in war !!!
We didn't cross log we didn't script we didn't create resource or intel farms we weren't a "famous" Kingdom and we where not members of an alliance but from the Fates Warning style of thinking we where down right durty durty cheaters ..... and he isn't original in his way of thinking there was alot of utopians with his attitude in the past alot of them left utopia due to "the alliances gang banging" and "cheaters" they left to play cheater free games like WoW ............ o.O ...... dinosaur attitude in a dead game ..... pretty weird
Trading was against the rules. That's why it had to be legalized.Quote:
Originally Posted by hint
Prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDGrey
Well, when I played in ghettos,we cheated, so ghettos must cheat.
When I played in a midtier kd, we cheateed so mid tier kd ...
That much covers everybody.
So I guess because Bishop said his kd traded that all top kds traded and thus cheated?
Well, nobody ever denied that top kds cheated but I bet you cant name a single top kd that you know for sure that cheated.