Hostile, Notices, and top kd drama

The simple solution to vulturing (whole kingdoms vulturing, anyway) - Snatch News, which most kingdoms should take before any hostile wave anyway. If there isn't any paper action, or no signs of heavy t/m damage from sot, how can someone claim they're being egregiously vultured?

I don't see it as vulturing to hit someone immediately after their eowcf expiration, as long as it's not announced 12 hours before the cf ends. Kingdoms are easily able to get war-ready in the 96 hours of cf even if they got seriously battered, with the possible exception of magic provinces. Just because some kingdoms think they deserve better than what the ghetto of utopia has to deal with, doesn't mean they're entitled to it. If they want that extra period of inviolability tacked on after the cf it's reasonable, but calling hits after cf vulturing is nowhere near vulturing someone immediately after a hostile wave.

Zauper, can i get a constructive critic rather than whatever that is you posted before..?

I'm agreeing with you Elit... truly, there is no perfect solution.. sooner or later, they will always be someone to find some new way to abuse the mechs...

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

Agreeing on a hostile definition proved to be a huge mistake and lead to most all competitive kingdoms doing lame actions left and right.

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Nothing different from this age, now, huh?

I really hoped there would at least be one person in the community interested in moving toward fair play. Damn I guess I really am that naive to believe anyone could be interested in sporting competition.

I am interested in fair play, I just think your idea of fair play isn't quite right. There's more to playing fair than everyone sitting on their hands and following some standard set of "rules". Like dharan said, I know ****ty play just like everyone else does.

Just adopt the mentality of: "Nobody is going to change their ways"

That way, when someone does something sketchy to you, you won't feel the need to complain about it; instead you'll just be shrugging and saying "That's just the way they play" and dealing with it with the mechanics that the game provides you.

Complaining gets you nowhere. Public chastising gets you nowhere. Kingdoms who practice sketchy behavior are just going to keep playing that way, no matter what, because it's all they know.

Just go with the flow, find ways to deal with it. Setting guidelines on poor behavior is like setting limits on breathing. Those who feel the need to behave poorly won't stop just because you made an unenforceable rule about it, and those who feel the need to breathe are certainly going to ignore any limits you put on their ability to breathe, because, you know... it's just how they are.

I seriously hope the majority of the community does not hold that frame of mind. But seeing as Havoc hasn't been GB'd yet this age I'd wager the community really has come to a point where no one even stands up for the belief of fair play anymore.

@Palem: So it's wrong to ask people what they consider courtesy and what their current practice is?

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

I seriously hope the majority of the community does not hold that frame of mind.

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What you have to remember is the majority of the community isn't the top 20 and don't visit these forums.

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

@Palem: So it's wrong to ask people what they consider courtesy and what their current practice is?

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Ezz, I think what you're missing here, is that... well, you kind of have a reputation... as a wordsmith, ya know what I mean? You're clever, you're quick, but most of all, you're... how to put this nicely... "that kind of player" maybe?

The kind of player who has an ulterior motive when they speak. The kind of player who, when you speak, smart people should really look at what you're saying and not take it just at face value. Like a passive/aggressive kind of thing. Don't feel bad, I'm not singling you out, there are many players like you... mostly in top kingdoms, naturally, because top kingdoms breed clever talkers... but I think the point you're missing is that players like Palem are fully aware that this is less about the community and more about you. (Please forgive, Palem, if I assume too much.)

Palem isn't saying you can't ask people what they consider courtesy... I think he's just saying that YOU can't ask people what they consider courtesy... because you actually probably don't care what they consider courtesy, you're starting the conversation with an ulterior motive that has less to do with helping the community and more to do with serving yourself or your kingdom.

Again, trying not to offend, because frankly, a self-serving player does very well in this game, which you have demonstrated with your immense success and high standing.

But let's be honest... and the Beastie Boys will agree... you're crafty.

Hostile = Hostile Meter says "Hostile"


That is all....

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

I seriously hope the majority of the community does not hold that frame of mind. But seeing as Havoc hasn't been GB'd yet this age I'd wager the community really has come to a point where no one even stands up for the belief of fair play anymore.

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Havoc is not GBed because current age Rest from Kingdoms don't have enough power to make it. If they had enough power Havoc wont make all this double hostile. Problem is lack balance this age and for this other side use his power to do what he want.

Game is not about TOP only. Yes what Havoc did was very bad but its only small part from ****s around every age. KDs in middle/low rank face ****s like it regular and deal with them how they can. Only problem about Top atm is you cant deal like in middle range because they have his ally for assist and prevent it.

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Originally Posted by Verminator

Ezz, I think what you're missing here, is that... well, you kind of have a reputation... as a wordsmith, ya know what I mean? You're clever, you're quick, but most of all, you're... how to put this nicely... "that kind of player" maybe?

The kind of player who has an ulterior motive when they speak.

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That is hysterical. One would think that if he had an ulterior motive I would know what it was. Maybe if people stopped all of the assumptions things would actually change and top kingdoms wouldn't be turning into whining pansies.

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Originally Posted by DeDLySMuRF

Hostile = Hostile Meter says "Hostile"


That is all....

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Yes with shades of gray. If you max the hostile meter and then both sides stop hitting, that kingdom page will still say hostile for many days. By your logic, no other kingdom can touch them until it decays to unfriendly. Also past what a simple snatch news will show, nobody would even know. You don't get a free pass for more than a week simply because you stop hitting and meter still says hostile.

There are many other cases in which some would bend the rules of an actual hostile. If your kingdom does 20 hits in an hour on a kingdom and then a few randoms, are they in a hostile if no CF was sent by the other kingdom? What if you do a few randoms first, then full wave the next hour? Can the kingdoms you randomed hit into your "hostile" to retal?

There are a lot of things that certain kingdoms will choose to exploit when it comes to what is an actual hostile and what isn't. It all depends on if they benefit from the exploit or not.

It's easy to claim there is an ulterior motive. It's realistically easy to prove that wrong. I dunno what reputation you've heard about me, but this is the first time I can recall ever being referred to as a self-serving player.

The kingdom I play for (Monument) is not a crown contending kingdom. They've not interest in crowning. They enjoy war, and generally having fun. They have their ups and downs, but they are a good lot of people. I actually have more to lose than gain by creating this thread, because I'm calling out the people that it does effect (My kingdom and I are not affected by this at all) to better their behavior. If they don't care to, I can't change their opinions. They'll act as retarded as they choose. The best ulterior motive I can come up with is, at least in the future I'll be able to reference this thread every time they come whining about all this lame **** that they are too lame to address.

Edit- Say what's on your mind btw. I have 0 problems being called anything by anyone. I'm not a problematic person. I don't get upset/offended very often or very easily. I'm a logical person.


@UG: IMO, retals are absolutely acceptable. In both cases. And yes, there are always shades of grey. I definitely agree with that too. But, for example, if my kingdom sends a dragon and 6 hits (not enough to make hostile) at a kingdom, baiting to wait for them to respond, do I have the right to claim that is a hostile? Personally, I'd say no. But many, even in the kingdom I play for, disagree, and say that is enough.

In my opinion, only way to clearly show that you are hostile to another kingdom is:

1. Tagging hostile helps although there are a lot of fake taggers out there.
2. Enough attacks from one side to give the other kingdom the war button. There is a time limit for this which common sense has to be applied. If the last hit of the hostile-initiating kingdom was like 24 hours ago, they aren't hostile in my opinion.
3. A dragon usually clears up your intentions nicely.
4. Leading up to your planned hostile, a solid 12 hour block of no attacks on other kingdoms helps make things pretty clear and keeps ghetto noobs from retalling into your hostile.

On the other side of the coin, there is the kingdom you are attacking. If they send a CF, that damn second the initiating kingdom is no longer hostile as the other kingdom has made it clear they don't want to fight. I don't give a **** if you accepted the CF or not. You are no longer hostile. If they don't send a CF though, keep pounding them until they do. But like I said above, you sit and not attack them for 24 hours or so, don't be surprised if another kingdom makes a move on you.

Sorry for the long post and if I went off track at all.

Forgot a few points where shades of gray might apply. At no point during an active hostile should someone do a random. Once you do, some other kingdom will exploit that saying that you randoming means you're not hostile. Also if a hostile is more than a day, which a lot are these days, you cannot just do 1 attack every 6 hours or so on the other kingdom just to still claim that your hostile is active. Minimum amount of hits every 24 hours on the kingdom you're hostile with should be the same number that initiates a hostile if that makes sense, or you may be the victim of an exploit.

I could agree with most of that except the part about an enemy sending a CF making you suddenly not hostile. They may have intent to cf but they still have a button on you. I think there may be grey areas around this also. Like if they retal waved for 3 days and then sent CF, you're not just gonna take it without some kind of deal.

Also, your post was neither long nor off track :P

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

I could agree with most of that except the part about an enemy sending a CF making you suddenly not hostile. They may have intent to cf but they still have a button on you. I think there may be grey areas around this also. Like if they retal waved for 3 days and then sent CF, you're not just gonna take it without some kind of deal.

Also, your post was neither long nor off track :P

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If they're retalling, then yeah that CF don't mean ****. I meant if they don't even send a single hit your way and send CF, then the hostile is dead. Another kingdom might move in on you. If you weren't smart enough to accept the CF and they withdraw it + declare, that's on you. Sorry, should have been more clear with my intent.

I didn't say or imply anything about ezzer having an agenda with getting courtesy rules down, but he wants to change the way people play and that's not going to happen.

If I say I think its totally fair to notice a kd while they're in eowcf and you tell me I shouldn't then I'm not going to stop because you don't think its fair. I think its fair and that's what is important when I'm playing.

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Originally Posted by Palem

If I say I think its totally fair to notice a kd while they're in eowcf and you tell me I shouldn't then I'm not going to stop because you don't think its fair. I think its fair and that's what is important when I'm playing.

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When it's part of your agreement that you do not notice during EoWcf, than you shouldn't notice during EoWcf. What's the point of having the agreement if you can't follow what's stipulated in it?

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Originally Posted by Palem

I didn't say or imply anything about ezzer having an agenda with getting courtesy rules down, but he wants to change the way people play and that's not going to happen.

If I say I think its totally fair to notice a kd while they're in eowcf and you tell me I shouldn't then I'm not going to stop because you don't think its fair. I think its fair and that's what is important when I'm playing.

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I think you misunderstand. I'm trying to get ppl to stick to their ****. Right now they're all slimy.

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

It's easy to claim there is an ulterior motive. It's realistically easy to prove that wrong. I dunno what reputation you've heard about me, but this is the first time I can recall ever being referred to as a self-serving player.

The kingdom I play for (Monument) is not a crown contending kingdom. They've not interest in crowning. They enjoy war, and generally having fun. They have their ups and downs, but they are a good lot of people. I actually have more to lose than gain by creating this thread, because I'm calling out the people that it does effect (My kingdom and I are not affected by this at all) to better their behavior. If they don't care to, I can't change their opinions. They'll act as retarded as they choose. The best ulterior motive I can come up with is, at least in the future I'll be able to reference this thread every time they come whining about all this lame **** that they are too lame to address.

Edit- Say what's on your mind btw. I have 0 problems being called anything by anyone. I'm not a problematic person. I don't get upset/offended very often or very easily. I'm a logical person.

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I wasn't actually talking about in-game motive, moreso it is a social community-based ulterior motive that I'd suggest here. By your own admission, yourself and your kingdom are not affected by the subject matter of this topic. So the question I mean to ask then, is... what are *you* doing bringing it up, as opposed to someone directly involved? What is your ulterior motive if yourself or your kingdom are not affected by the top-game?

Essentially... why do you care?

I would suggest a social motive, a sort of image-based motive. Imagine if this attempt of yours actually works, and you change the way the top game is played, wouldn't your community status be enhanced even more? It's already pretty solid, you're kind of a big deal around these parts, but taking on a topic outside of your area of influence and succeeding to create change, that would just add to your social status. It's no secret that social status seekers like to create situations where they can gain greater standing in the community. This feels like that.

I would equate you maybe to Marc Antony and his famous speech after the murder of Caesar. It's all about rhetoric, modes of persuasion, and how to persuade a crowd towards your stance with cleverly crafted wordage and all that, what with communicative skills being something you're clearly very good at. You've got a crowd of squabbling folks who have different opinions on the topic, so you get up on the podium and ask the Utopian top-game to lend you their ears. Then you go about weaving your words in an attempt to affect change in an area of the game that doesn't impact you and shouldn't really matter to you, with what one can only assume is the need for social status enhancement. (Granted, Marc Antony wanted to rule instead of Brutus, and you probably don't want to rule the top-game, so that's where the comparison obviously splits.)


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But to your original post, I would respond with this:

Let the top-game play however they want. They aren't the only section of the Utopian community that matters, and you aren't a part of their section nor does their section impact the region of the game that yourself and your kingdom prefer to play in.

Let them point fingers, lay blame, cry foul, make accusations, assume motives, deliver threats, craft excuses, issue complaints, publicize betrayals, attempt regulation, exercise leverage, insinuate misbehavior... the list goes on. Let them do it all, in their own corner of the game. It provides entertainment for the rest of us, but very little actual impact on the rest of the game. Kingdoms in the middle and bottom rarely partake in all this "noticing" crap and obsession with the definition of "hostile" and so forth.

Frankly, my own personal opinion is that it takes two parties to be in a conflict (or "hostile" as it is called), and if one party tries to back out (offers a ceasefire) then the conflict ("hostile") is over. But having been in the middle most of my Utopian career, why do I care? Why would I try to affect the top-game if it doesn't affect me?

And so then why, as well, would you?

Chivalry. The act of selflessness. Oftentimes morally inept can't grasp the tenants of civilizations desire for justice. My personal acts are for me to live with and I prefer to act in a manner of mutual respect. This is personally. My concept of the game is that all is fair and thus don't hold others to this standard other than enforcing mutual respect if possible.

How about, because I care about the game? I realistically know and accept most people wont give a ****. That's their prerogative.

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

How about, because I care about the game? I realistically know and accept most people wont give a ****. That's their prerogative.

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If you care about the game, why try to affect change in only 10% of it? If you accept most people won't give a poop, why try? If you are a logical person, would not the logical approach be silence? Your approach is then based on hope, which is based on emotion, not logic. By starting this topic, you are behaving in a contrary manner to the kind of person you say you are. So, this is why I say, there is an ulterior motive that is unrelated to caring about the game.

If you care about the game, fight for change where the other 90% of the player base plays, where you can improve the quality of experience for the most players. This topic is pointless beyond social satisfaction. You can't say you care about a game while only fighting for change among a small percentage of the player base. Aware folks just won't buy it, which all comes back to having motives beyond the surface presentation.

Are you serious? I think you should get a clue. How many people fight for the game and for the changes that need to be made? Does that mean that they're doing it for the wrong reasons? Or is it because those reasons are acceptable to you?

I don't think you have any grasp at all on the problem I'm bringing up. The 10% that doesn't care doesn't give a **** about the game, but they're the 10% that are needed most.

Honestly, if everyone could adopt dorje's "dont be a dick" and go from there we should be good. Problem is, with a game so small, everyone tends to hold grudges from the past. Take for example Proteus; Yes, he was wronged, but that was almost 10 ages ago, and he still won't let it go. Using something that long ago to justify present and future actions will always stray from "dont be a dick".

What needs to happen is for someone to be a bigger man and allow everyone to restart on a clean slate. But it's tough because the scorpion will always inevitably sting the frog, no matter how many tries we give it a go. Nevertheless, it doesnt help when the most powerful alliance is essentially promoting dickish behaviour. They can chalk it up to defensive reasons or for revenge. However, lets call a spade, a spade; everyone wants cheap and easy acres, especially in such a small diluted game.

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Originally Posted by Realest

Honestly, if everyone could adopt dorje's "dont be a dick" and go from there we should be good. Problem is, with a game so small, everyone tends to hold grudges from the past. Take for example Proteus; Yes, he was wronged, but that was almost 10 ages ago, and he still won't let it go. Using something that long ago to justify present and future actions will always stray from "dont be a dick".

What needs to happen is for someone to be a bigger man and allow everyone to restart on a clean slate. But it's tough because the scorpion will always inevitably sting the frog, no matter how many tries we give it a go. Nevertheless, it doesnt help when the most powerful alliance is essentially promoting dickish behaviour. They can chalk it up to defensive reasons or for revenge. However, lets call a spade, a spade; everyone wants cheap and easy acres, especially in such a small diluted game.

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This.

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Originally Posted by flutterby

When it's part of your agreement that you do not notice during EoWcf, than you shouldn't notice during EoWcf. What's the point of having the agreement if you can't follow what's stipulated in it?

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Dealing breaking does not fall into the realm of things I don't think are wrong.

You won't find me breaking deals.

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Originally Posted by Palem

You won't find me breaking deals.

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That's cause you're just awesome like that... and stop being so busy and come on IRC!!

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Originally Posted by Realest

Honestly, if everyone could adopt dorje's "dont be a dick" and go from there we should be good. Problem is, with a game so small, everyone tends to hold grudges from the past. Take for example Proteus; Yes, he was wronged, but that was almost 10 ages ago, and he still won't let it go. Using something that long ago to justify present and future actions will always stray from "dont be a dick".

What needs to happen is for someone to be a bigger man and allow everyone to restart on a clean slate. But it's tough because the scorpion will always inevitably sting the frog, no matter how many tries we give it a go. Nevertheless, it doesnt help when the most powerful alliance is essentially promoting dickish behaviour. They can chalk it up to defensive reasons or for revenge. However, lets call a spade, a spade; everyone wants cheap and easy acres, especially in such a small diluted game.

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Except that it's dorje so his "don't be a dick" is like Google's "don't be evil", it's all just words on a paper which no one takes seriously, and thys without any value whatsoever.
The problem with letting the old crap die and be forgotten is that new crap is continuously spawned every single age. So everyone will always have some reason to be pissed and to conveniently pull out of a dark corner when they need to justify whatever shady/foul situation they put themselves in.

The problem is that the most powerful alliance don't have an effective counterweight.And as long as that remains true they will be able to get away with almost whatever dickish moves they can come up with.
And since those dickish moves usually means that they get ahead of the competition they will no doubt keep doing them until a "Cold War terror balance" has been established.

There will never be a solid alliance to counter Absalom. Look at the top kingdoms other than Absalom. Vast majority of them didn't exist a year ago and most likely won't exist a year from now. Absalom has had a solid presence for a very long time with kingdoms like Rage and Sanctuary rich with history not to mention top notch leadership.

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

Except that it's dorje so his "don't be a dick" is like Google's "don't be evil", it's all just words on a paper which no one takes seriously, and thys without any value whatsoever.
The problem with letting the old crap die and be forgotten is that new crap is continuously spawned every single age. So everyone will always have some reason to be pissed and to conveniently pull out of a dark corner when they need to justify whatever shady/foul situation they put themselves in.

The problem is that the most powerful alliance don't have an effective counterweight.And as long as that remains true they will be able to get away with almost whatever dickish moves they can come up with.
And since those dickish moves usually means that they get ahead of the competition they will no doubt keep doing them until a "Cold War terror balance" has been established.

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People always say you need a counter alliance to beat Absalom, and that's simply not true. It's an easy cop out but the issues are deeper than that. For example, when I played, only CGG and ZZ were competent to ride up there with me. 1-7 was often the 5 Absalom and us 2. You had other neutral/friendly kds rounding out the top 10, but they were not in viable range to be a threat.

The problem is that since the retirement/disbanding of many solo kds and the assimilation of their leaders and players into Absalom kds, the skill level to combat Absalom has fallen below competitive levels. It's not about rounding out more kingdoms than Absalom; quantity of kds is only needed when you lack skill (ie, given enough monkeys, you are bound to get it right).

I agree dorje and Proteus are certainly part of the problem, but there is also no alternative for them to take. If your target decides to drop 50 bucks to reset themselves to 400 acres, what choice do you really have? There's no incentive for Absalom to promote fairplay, insofar that non-abs kd do not want to make up either.

I propose that Proteus needs to stop being a little girl and move forward. Dorje needs to get off the rag and stop complaining that everyone is abusing a bug or conspiring some great evil. ASF should develop some brevity in his posts. In return, non Absalom kingdoms should learn some humility; eat a wave when you are outplayed, and don't needlessly drag out conflicts out of spite. "Warring kds" need to respect high level play and stop stealing gold and randoming our stragglers. Ghettos can ghetto and we don't give a **** about you after the first 2 weeks. By all means, explore as hard as you can during that time though.

As far as Im concerned, a notice is not hostile. When a page says hostile, that is hostile. Some exceptions apply (eg. cow battles and nr1 kd vs nr2/3 kds EoA fights). Calling dibs is nice, but doesn't mean much. If a kingdom "dodges", well, that's the trade off of installing notice CFs. However, when that "dodge conflict ends", I am going to hit you immediately. Ghetto kds/cows can approach me at anytime for EoA CFs provided you dont random me or steal my **** before you ask. That is how I expect to play in this upcoming age and I believe my approach is more than fair.

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Originally Posted by flutterby

You know what I'm sick and tired of...... notices and NAPS and CF's in the top. Where the hell did this **** come from? Granted, I've said this before... it's ruining the game.

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Lol, yeah. One of the reasons why I don't play. War notice, hostile notice, barbie dolls and flower power. It's a sissy game these days. :)


And yes, you need an alliance to counter absalom if you are not NAP'ed or allied with them. Heroes of Absalom would NEVER have won if they hadn't sent their integrity and honour on the boat down the river and joined Absalom.

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Originally Posted by stoffi

Lol, yeah. One of the reasons why I don't play. War notice, hostile notice, barbie dolls and flower power. It's a sissy game these days. :)

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You forgot patty cake ;)

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Originally Posted by Realest

People always say you need a counter alliance to beat Absalom, and that's simply not true. It's an easy cop out but the issues are deeper than that. For example, when I played, only CGG and ZZ were competent to ride up there with me. 1-7 was often the 5 Absalom and us 2. You had other neutral/friendly kds rounding out the top 10, but they were not in viable range to be a threat.

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Agreed, I'm not saying you need a counter alliance. What I meant is that you do need some support to rely on even if that is just you and 1 more kd that is infinitely better than just you yourself.

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Originally Posted by Realest

The problem is that since the retirement/disbanding of many solo kds and the assimilation of their leaders and players into Absalom kds, the skill level to combat Absalom has fallen below competitive levels. It's not about rounding out more kingdoms than Absalom; quantity of kds is only needed when you lack skill (ie, given enough monkeys, you are bound to get it right).

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Agreed, on all points.

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Originally Posted by Realest

I agree dorje and Proteus are certainly part of the problem, but there is also no alternative for them to take. If your target decides to drop 50 bucks to reset themselves to 400 acres, what choice do you really have? There's no incentive for Absalom to promote fairplay, insofar that non-abs kd do not want to make up either.

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I think it's the other way around, the opposition sees no reason to play fairly because the monolith that is Abs does not. age upon age Abs does shady things, occasionally really obvious shady things like 2v1's and that sorta things, other times it's just using clever words when making deals and then making up their own interpretation of that deal that is usually very far from the spirit in which it was made. What pewpew did was simply twisting the words, according to whats posted the deal said button had to be pressed after x hours, pewpew made it so that there was no button to press and thus avoided having to go through with it and farm out to Rage.

Absalom ought to think carefully over why someone is willing to spend 50 bucks just to spite them. It's not a whole lot of money but personally I would have about a million things I'd rather spend it on.

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Originally Posted by Realest

I propose that Proteus needs to stop being a little girl and move forward. Dorje needs to get off the rag and stop complaining that everyone is abusing a bug or conspiring some great evil. ASF should develop some brevity in his posts. In return, non Absalom kingdoms should learn some humility; eat a wave when you are outplayed, and don't needlessly drag out conflicts out of spite. "Warring kds" need to respect high level play and stop stealing gold and randoming our stragglers. Ghettos can ghetto and we don't give a **** about you after the first 2 weeks. By all means, explore as hard as you can during that time though.

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I do agree on your opinions on dorje, proteus and asf. Tho when it comes to needlessly dragging out conflicts buth sides are quite good at that when it's convenient. Abs kd's who are "out of the race" will quite often go out and try to block the opposition as much and long as possible. The gold stealing would not be a problem if the norm wasn't to pump most of the age at 20% draft, it would be better to change that norm in my opinion and the stealing would go away when it stops being ridiculously easy because topkd cows are running 0 thieves. If cows are running 0 thieves I think it's a healthy expression that the community is stealing as much gc as they can get away with and I'd like to see it happen more often.

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Originally Posted by Realest

As far as Im concerned, a notice is not hostile. When a page says hostile, that is hostile. Some exceptions apply (eg. cow battles and nr1 kd vs nr2/3 kds EoA fights). Calling dibs is nice, but doesn't mean much. If a kingdom "dodges", well, that's the trade off of installing notice CFs. However, when that "dodge conflict ends", I am going to hit you immediately. Ghetto kds/cows can approach me at anytime for EoA CFs provided you dont random me or steal my **** before you ask. That is how I expect to play in this upcoming age and I believe my approach is more than fair.

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I agree with most of that, there are some obvious exceptions to the hostile is when the page says hostile, hostiles that have gone without events for several days comes to mind as does the situation of PB's vs TFC, for quite a bit of that tfc didn't hit much and instead only traded ops, and since ops doesn't push the meter that will never show up as hostile.

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Originally Posted by flutterby

You know what I'm sick and tired of...... notices and NAPS and CF's in the top. Where the hell did this **** come from? Granted, I've said this before... it's ruining the game.

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They came about because they're usually mutually beneficial to all the parties involved, previously there used to be too many kd's/alliances around that you could never have naps with everybody so eventually things would blossom up, but nowadays the top is so small that it's easy to arrange a few beneficial Naps which lets you not having to worry about being backstabbed while pumping at 20% draft.

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Originally Posted by flutterby

Also, when Anri gave notice to 3 kingdoms at once and Abs... were so 'lame' to have all 3 kingdoms hit him... this was NOT hostile. It was merely, in my opinion, clearing 'relations. Not like any of this is going to change anytime soon....

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Noticing 3 kd's at the same time is silly, I basically interpret a notice as a declaration that you intend to fight, so if you notice 3 kd's you will probably be on the receiving end of 3 waves when they run out. Top kd's make CF's and NAPs precicely to avoid having uncertain relations(as you cannot pump when there is somone who could wave you at the tip of a hat), so when you break them either you or the target will initiate a fight to return to status quo.
I would think Abs giving notice from 3 kd's at the same time would be extremely lame but if you send the notice to 3 abs kd's you're putting yourself in a 3v1 intentionally.

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Originally Posted by Realest

People always say you need a counter alliance to beat Absalom, and that's simply not true. It's an easy cop out but the issues are deeper than that. For example, when I played, only CGG and ZZ were competent to ride up there with me. 1-7 was often the 5 Absalom and us 2. You had other neutral/friendly kds rounding out the top 10, but they were not in viable range to be a threat.

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You need an counter alliance to beat Abs if your kd is not as good as they are as a whole. Every KD has its strengths and weaknesses, abs works because together they balance out each other. Perfect examples would be elit this age..another skilled leader could have easily talked him through the need to cf sanc post war. Getting an alliance would of helped that kd or a kd like simians who just cant keep up in evenly matched wars.

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Originally Posted by Realest

Ghetto kds/cows can approach me at anytime for EoA CFs provided you dont random me or steal my **** before you ask. That is how I expect to play in this upcoming age and I believe my approach is more than fair.

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This approach is a good one as a "new" leader in a top kd but when u have history or say things like

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Originally Posted by Realest

"Warring kds" need to respect high level play ....we don't give a **** about you

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its hard for people to let things go as they know your real personality and then dont want to give u a reasonable deal. I mean if i were Proteus why would i want to deal with elit again after what happened 10 ages ago....and thats the stuff that causes drama. I mean if i hold a grudge or dislike someone my definition of "Hostile"and my willingness to let things slide is going to change drastically. Its a big reason why you cant define things like
"1) What is a hostile?
2) What is the proper way/time to serve notice."

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Originally Posted by Persain

You need an counter alliance to beat Abs if your kd is not as good as they are as a whole. Every KD has its strengths and weaknesses, abs works because together they balance out each other. Perfect examples would be elit this age..another skilled leader could have easily talked him through the need to cf sanc post war. Getting an alliance would of helped that kd or a kd like simians who just cant keep up in evenly matched wars.

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Well if Abs was really honest about the fairness and 1v1 talk ASF has been filling the forum with Elit shouldn't have needed to cf Sanct. But yes he could have played it safe and assumed that Abs would be bullying bastards like usual, the question is would Sanct have accepted a CF? I have my doubts since it all seemed a little too well orchestrated and considering ASF got involved almost immediately instead of goodz/dorje who are the leaders of the two kingdoms involved. I also seriously doubt Sanct would have stopped hitting unless pewpew had conveniently noticed Sanct, I guess Elit do have some friends, or pewpew just wanted to spite Abs.

Elit was probably planning on farming Sanct later in the age and I'd assume that's why he chose not to cf immediately, and obviously Abs wouldn't have accepted a non eoa cf at that point. Havoc did the strategically smart thing and waved MA into an active hostile because otherwise the acres MA just explored would probably have made the upcoming war even more unwinnable for Havoc, but the option Havoc chose was also the lame and dirty move and it puts a lie to all the Abs flowery talk about fairness and 1v1(which comes as no surprise really).

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Originally Posted by Persain

You need an counter alliance to beat Abs if your kd is not as good as they are as a whole. Every KD has its strengths and weaknesses, abs works because together they balance out each other.

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Have you tried? No, you haven't, so stop talking about something you clearly know nothing about. Theorycraft is nothing close to the real thing, otherwise we can just sim out the ages somewhere instead of playing them. Absalom kingdoms hate each other more than you realize, and they surely arent banding together to cover weaknesses. They are only together because the optimal strategy calls for their congregation - no more, no less. If you told Proteus that the best way to win was to team up with you, he would exit Absalom immediately. These are just facts, and to believe otherwise is naive.

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Perfect examples would be elit this age..another skilled leader could have easily talked him through the need to cf sanc post war.

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You clearly have never played with Elit (he is more stubborn than a bull). Dirty is hands down the most skilled player in this game in the past 15 or so ages and he could not talk him down, so it's clearly not about the skill of the co-leader. Utopia, while a math game, also has a human element. With the benefit of hindsight, of course it is easy to say. Hell, even with a bit of logic, you could argue we should have saw it coming too - and a lot of people did. But if your argument is that Elit should have been convinced, then you don't know him very well.

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Getting an alliance would of helped that kd or a kd like simians who just cant keep up in evenly matched wars.

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would HAVE. if you're going to try and pretend to sound intelligent, don't spell like an infantile retard. And no, if that's your argument, KLA, HaJ, NA, etc. should have been more useful than they are. No amount of umbrella covers up the lack of individual ability.

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This approach is a good one as a "new" leader in a top kd but when u have history or say things like

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And if they don't CF me, no skin off my back. Doesn't affect me one bit. I have no idea how long you have been playing, I hope you realize I have won ages after suffering a multi attack of 400+ provinces. Educate yourself before you hate.

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its hard for people to let things go as they know your real personality and then dont want to give u a reasonable deal. I mean if i were Proteus why would i want to deal with elit again after what happened 10 ages ago....and thats the stuff that causes drama. I mean if i hold a grudge or dislike someone my definition of "Hostile"and my willingness to let things slide is going to change drastically. Its a big reason why you cant define things like
"1) What is a hostile?
2) What is the proper way/time to serve notice."

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And that is why I propose we need to put these things aside and move forward. The game is not going do it for you if people don't be a bigger man. USA is not going to stop importing German and Japanese products because of something that happened almost 70 years ago. In utopia time, 8 ages of 12~ years each is over a century - so just let it go.

Bottom line, there are always excuses to play lame and to say so otherwise is folly. Something as simple as Proteus made fun of me in his video orders 20 ages ago could be justification to NAP break him.

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Originally Posted by Realest

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Originally Posted by PersainCAT

You need a counter alliance to beat Abs if your kd is not as good as they are as a whole.

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Have you tried? No, you haven't, so stop talking about something you clearly know nothing about.

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so any crappy kd can beat abs huh...i wonder if any crappy kd could beat u or are u so good that rule doesnt apply....oh

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Originally Posted by Realest

I hope you realize I have won ages after suffering a multi attack of 400+ provinces.

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i c question answered then.

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Originally Posted by Realest

You clearly have never played with Elit (he is more stubborn than a bull). Dirty is hands down the most skilled player in this game in the past 15 or so ages and he could not talk him down, so it's clearly not about the skill of the co-leader. Utopia, while a math game, also has a human element. With the benefit of hindsight, of course it is easy to say. Hell, even with a bit of logic, you could argue we should have saw it coming too - and a lot of people did. But if your argument is that Elit should have been convinced, then you don't know him very well.

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yea its the exact reason he needed someone to actually help that he'd be bound by not just some random voice in his ear. Everyone isn't you realest and incapable of making a mistake, when you have players that are prone to mistakes allying up and working make the able to compete with kds they arent as good as....a big reason there needs to be an alliance is there arent many kds at their level..

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Originally Posted by Realest

And that is why I propose we need to put these things aside and move forward. The game is not going do it for you if people don't be a bigger man.

Bottom line, there are always excuses to play lame and to say so otherwise is folly.

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Bottom line is it's fun to watch the top kds drama. Its mostly between people that try to power game for position, so its all fun to read. But fair enough @ the "bigger man" comment lets see if enough people are the bigger man so u can try to crown, cause I'm thinking it'll be fun to watch Simians mess with you, even if u win.


edit: so i stay on topic
2) What is the proper way/time to serve notice.
I know the last time i served notice to someone i didnt like i treated them much differntly than i would someone i respected. could of caused some drama to but then again "proper" is however i feel like treating that person. For some reason i think most people would act exactly that way.