Thoughts on 'Dibs' and Definition of Hostile

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Originally Posted by Palem

"Dibs" has nothing to do with the level of ****play that's been crossing the line lately. Chartshaping has been ruining gameplay, not people trying to get into wars.

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Dibs, and I don't like the word any more than batch(tangent), is an outside the game diplo mutation. We all know what it means, but it's only strength is in the kingdom that calls it.
In our recent case, and maybe it was baiting, this diplo backfired. Again, 15-20 spots lower on charts the action of AMA would've been unquestionably justified. I'm not in favor, just establishing that bad diplo is normal to nonexistent here.

Thus I suggest the tops simply stop wordsmithing Hostile. Hostile is mechanically hostile; that is, it is the green light to war with all the ops and sabotage goodies to push a non-diplomatic solution.

If you want diplomacy in the tops then first you must agree it is a non-mechanical system based in chivalry at best and devil dealing at worst. It should apply when a net worth gap is established say between war and whore tiers. The reason is that the charts then fade slowly into kingdoms that don't frequent forums or irc. So while diplo may apply to a group with a margin of safe net worth it won't be something the remaining top 100 are familiar with. Shinra, Roughnecks near the tops practice some quasi-diplomatic Etiquette as does Miracle Illusion(or have) in the lower tier. This I respect and makes encounters memorable. Still, you must be basically good people. In Miracle Illusions case I have deepest respect because there is no upside other than having a light shined on them here.

To point, I can't recall our chart number, but I was with Plaidovia last age and we warred Shinra. So maybe Shinra has better clarity in this, but suffice to say inside top 30 at the time.
Nobody in Plaidovia knew who SWEA was. One guy was complaining that ABs was ruining the game, oblivious to recent age events. I spent a few moments to explain the Cartoon Networth vs Network war and who was who. To them it was maybe amusing, or just boring. So the business of diplomacy or who's who is lost on the majority. Most of my time is spent floating around the top 15- 120ish and attention to the scenery is minimal. Retired tops in the ghetto are the rare exception.

Some day someone is just going to realize that the game was designed with vulturing in mind, and when that happens the **** will hit the fan.

@Palem, with the attitude "don't try it wont work" nothing in the human existence would ever have gone forward. Not trying is the easy way out and like many others have said your posts could be on borderline trolling.

Here is my input on the definitions:

Hostile:

I believe a proper hostile should be defined based upon NW ranges as well as what Proteus said in regards to cows. I think a kingdom should be in a "legit" hostile if both kingdoms are within war range. But I also agree with Proteus that if a Cow has army out toward another kingdom, that can be considered a hostile too as both play to avoid ops etc. For a kingdom to be hostile I also agree that one side should have the button. I think a Hostile should be considered "cleared" once a CF has been accepted. For example Kingdom A waves Kingdom B, Kingdom B declines war and sends CF back. Kingdom A can either accept right away (and can be eligible for a wave) or they can accept within 24 hours (to get troops home) and then the "hostile" is over. I say a 24 hour stamp so kingdoms can't cry "kingdom C waved us and we didn't accept the cf!!!"

Dibs:

Although I don't see what CR did as "wrong" I can see why AMA got annoyed. I can see it from both perspectives. CR wanted to let AMA know they were going to notice so AMA could prepare and not double themselves, AMA thought this was a tactic to stop them being able to fight another war they wanted to get. Both have valid arguments but for future references maybe we can only have leaders of either kingdom make the thread once Notice has been given.

How to give a notice:

I think this should be done by a simple kingdom name change too "XXX giving XXX notice" and a dragon start / cancel on the same tick. A message sent too Monarch/Steward and a thread made by the noticing kingdom. If that is not enough to make a kingdom aware then i don't know what is.

2v1:

It is crap but if 2 CF end on the same tick, they will happen. It will be hard to decide who has the right to wave who and claim a hostile. Just using the CR, AMA and pyro CF scenario as an example, it would have played out like below:

AMA notices Pyro, Havoc notices AMA (all on same tick)
AMA waves Pyro, Havoc waves AMA
AMA would claim Havoc deliberately 2v1 them, Havoc would claim AMA were trying to run

So a question is, how do we stop the above from happening so that everyone can move on and be "happy". IMO and the scenario above, I think Havoc *should* be entitled to 1 wave as the CF situation was not their fault but had they continued to hit then that should be considered a 2v1. If somehow Pyro / AMA entered war within 10 minutes and Havoc hit into that war that should NOT be ok.

I think to stop the above people need to ensure themselves that they do not have CF expiring on the same ticks with kingdoms that possibly won't want to change it later.

I think I can agree to American Badass post. Havent had time to read everything posted here, but there is 1 part I like to clarify.
This "tax" thing people keep bringing up.
Untill this age it was pretty normal if KD B gave notice to KD A, and KD A didnt want to fight KD B, KD A would start diplo talks to stop them from getting waved once notice expired. This normaly ended in KD A giving a certain amount of acres to KD B in exchange for a CF extension. Basicly, the stronger KD takes acres from the weaker KD in exchange for a longer CF.
This age, the above example is getting called "tax" and suddenly its bad? My KD (CR) is the KD accused of taxing other KD's. What we did was exactly what I discribed above. We noticed KD's when our CF's expired and engaged in diplo to see if we could make a deal both KD's would feel okay about. Why? Because to us getting the acres without having to fight for it saves resources and has value, and to the other KD, (if our demand isnt too high) it also saves them resources.
In some cases this age were we noticed KD's, the KD's we noticed asked us to wave them after a certain date or after a comming conflict. If it didnt hurt our objectives/goals, then I see no reason why we shouldnt let the KD we noticed do (wave or war) what they wanted to do.
Its all part of the diplo talks, and in the end the goal in diplo is to see if you can find a deal that both KD's feel okay about.
Why this is called "tax" now is trully beyond me. Its a game mechanic that has been used in the top for atleast 40 ages and it was never a problem.

I do not see what CR did as wrong either.

From my understanding, as an example, CR noticed simians who were interested in waring Pyro. Now CR *could* have waved simians BEFORE simians could get into the war and within the constraints of CF, it was "legal". Negotiations between Simians and CR took place and Simians agreed to give CR x amount of acres AFTER the war so that they could fight Pyro on equal footing. CR *could* have just waved simians before but IMO what happened was fair all around.

If simians did not want to be "taxed", they could have done what Kygal suggested and Raze retal but then simians would not have got a war from Pyro.

*edit*

Again, this was all a case of CR playing their CF better than everyone else and being in situations to enable them to do this on other kingdoms.

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Originally Posted by Maximouse

This "tax" thing people keep bringing up.
Untill this age it was pretty normal if KD B gave notice to KD A, and KD A didnt want to fight KD B, KD A would start diplo talks to stop them from getting waved once notice expired. This normaly ended in KD A giving a certain amount of acres to KD B in exchange for a CF extension. Basicly, the stronger KD takes acres from the weaker KD in exchange for a longer CF.
This age, the above example is getting called "tax" and suddenly its bad? My KD (CR) is the KD accused of taxing other KD's. What we did was exactly what I discribed above. We noticed KD's when our CF's expired and engaged in diplo to see if we could make a deal both KD's would feel okay about. Why? Because to us getting the acres without having to fight for it saves resources and has value, and to the other KD, (if our demand isnt too high) it also saves them resources.
In some cases this age were we noticed KD's, the KD's we noticed asked us to wave them after a certain date or after a comming conflict. If it didnt hurt our objectives/goals, then I see no reason why we shouldnt let the KD we noticed do (wave or war) what they wanted to do.
Its all part of the diplo talks, and in the end the goal in diplo is to see if you can find a deal that both KD's feel okay about.
Why this is called "tax" now is trully beyond me. Its a game mechanic that has been used in the top for atleast 40 ages and it was never a problem.

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What you did this age is "TAX" have noting with what you describe up. When you gave notice Simians Did you wave them? No you delay your wave for let them wave/war other kd. This direct affected Pew Pew and Pyro. If you have processed your wave and gain your acres from Simins this will restul Pew Pew not get waved. Its much more complicated from how you explain it.
Send notice AFTER cf expire is ok and Wave if second kd agree to trade land for CF is ok too. But send notice for let them wave/war other kd and get acres later is kind of chart shape.

@ AB, I would say the pragmatic solution is somewhere between your ideal and Palems ' no deal '. When the CF expired the choice was and is simply this: relationships are open. 2 vs 1 either intended or unintended is in play. So in my eyes nothing is broken. AMA deal broke to take initiative, but again this is a total non-issue in 90% of Utopia.
Now if I was AMA I may have diplo with top-heavy smaller kingdoms to crash the core of whoever they chose in a 2 v 1 situation. The fact that anyone can do this who has the charm to accomplish it is diplomacy.
Nothing I'm saying here is to be incendiary, I'm only referring to the situation in question. I know this seems dumbed down, but knowing very smart people I realize that we can't always perceive the scope of their vision. If incredibly intelligent people do certain things like dual-CF expiration, then I'm as inclined to believe there was a reason as much as it could've been a case of over thinking.

isn't this "tax" just giving a free wave for a CF extension...?

1) dibs is hilarious
2) watching top level diplomats angst in the forums is hilarious
3) my amusement comes before your sense of fair play
4) dibs is therefore awesome.

on a serious note....


There is nothing wrong with someone publicly announcing their firm intention to issue notice and to then commence hostilities at X date in the future. There is also nothing wrong with them calling the KD that uses that additional information to dodge them cowards etc. It does seem wrong to use that as a basis to hit into war. There is no deal break or anything there that would support that kind of behavior and breach of the gentleman's code that passes for law in the top. Unfortunately, the supreme rule of the game trumps. "That which is not specifically prohibited is permissible."

I also do not think there is anything wrong with a noticed (officially noticed) KD running into another war. They take a huge risk to do that. It could as easily burn them to the ground doing that.

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Originally Posted by tetley

isn't this "tax" just giving a free wave for a CF extension...?

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Yes it is Tetley, and that in itself isn't wrong or bad. I think it's a matter of how much you demand, how much weaker the other kd is (such as you notice the minute they leave a war, knowing they aren't strong enough to fight you or anyone else), and as Elilt pointed out, the timing of the tax collection. I can notice you today, you agree to pay your taxes, so I say to you "Okay, I don't want the land right now, but I will collect it the last week of the age"...

Hell, come to think of it... that's a good strategy. I'll just hand all the kd's "You owe me X acres", and I'll spend the last 2 weeks collecting all of those free lands :D That in itself is risky though, as was seen in HoH and Rage's mess with Legacy a few ages back... But I take full blame for that, for being a sucker and letting them delay

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Originally Posted by tetley

isn't this "tax" just giving a free wave for a CF extension...?

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Yes it is.

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Originally Posted by KyGal

Yes it is Tetley, and that in itself isn't wrong or bad. I think it's a matter of how much you demand, how much weaker the other kd is (such as you notice the minute they leave a war, knowing they aren't strong enough to fight you or anyone else), and as Elilt pointed out, the timing of the tax collection. I can notice you today, you agree to pay your taxes, so I say to you "Okay, I don't want the land right now, but I will collect it the last week of the age"...

Hell, come to think of it... that's a good strategy. I'll just hand all the kd's "You owe me X acres", and I'll spend the last 2 weeks collecting all of those free lands :D That in itself is risky though, as was seen in HoH and Rage's mess with Legacy a few ages back... But I take full blame for that, for being a sucker and letting them delay

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This is why I believe there should be an x% land guidance to determine what is "fair" before next age starts. Say a MAX of 15% land can be claimed for a CF extension (minimum of 1 week duration with a 48 hour notice CF). This would enable all kingdoms to know where they stand and it is "fair" for all. It also means that a massive kingdom does not get to bully and dicatate a land amount at time of asking.

So a kingdom being notice has 3 options :

a) Give 15% land for 1 week extension (48 hours notice) minimum (Obviously longer CF notices can be agreed upon by both parties)
b) Refuse and enter a raze retal
c) go to war

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Originally Posted by Elit

What you did this age is "TAX" have noting with what you describe up. When you gave notice Simians Did you wave them? No you delay your wave for let them wave/war other kd. This direct affected Pew Pew and Pyro. If you have processed your wave and gain your acres from Simins this will restul Pew Pew not get waved. Its much more complicated from how you explain it.
Send notice AFTER cf expire is ok and Wave if second kd agree to trade land for CF is ok too. But send notice for let them wave/war other kd and get acres later is kind of chart shape.

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K, let me explain the Simian situation a bit more.

Our CF with them expired before they were able to go after pew2 and pyro. I aproached Anri on irc and told him we were noticing them. Anri and I then talked since Simians prefered a CF extension over a hostile with CR. For us the situation was as followed. If we didnt make a deal with Simians we were able to take between 15K and 25K acres in probably a few days tops. We would need to train up heavily ofcourse and spent time and resources which we rather use in pumpmode. (edit: there was also the risk simians would raze retal which would take the out of the top completely and limit our gains to perhaps 10K max)
Simians prefered a deal aswell since if we waved them it would screw their plans. We settled on 20K acres as a price for the CF extension. 20K acres was at that time roughly 1.5 to 2 waves in acres. Not an uncommon price for a CF extension with a KD you dont want to face. (we took I think 12K acres in our 1st wave on simians later)
Simians made 1 other demand in the diplo talks, and that was to not take the acres untill they were done with pew2 and pyro. That demand was because if we took the acres before their upcomming conflicts it would stop them from beeing able to fight those conflicts.
So for CR, what mattered was getting the acres without having to train up and waste resources and pumptime. For Simians what mattered was them beeing able to fight the 2 conflicts they had planned. In the end we agreed to wait.
Both KD's got what they wanted as a result of diplo talks.

If we had taken the acres before simians engaged pew2 and pyro it would have directly effected the charts aswell. Pew2 probably would have been bigger, and Pyro wouldnt have warred Simians and be smaller. Perhaps pyro would then have noticed Simians, and perhaps simians would have made a deal with them. We dont know. And we would have probably been forced to train up to take the acres since Simians didnt want to deal if they were left in a position that didnt enable them to go after their objectives.

Any action any KD does effects the charts. If you wave somebody, it limits the acres your direct opponents could take from them. If you CF somebody you give them time to pump and potentialy prep to better war a direct opponent. If you war somebody and beat them, you limit the acres your opponent could take from them. And I guess you can list another dozen examples easily.

What we did was to delay our wave at the request of Simians.
Why? Because to us getting the deal was better then the alternative.

Dibs are dumb.

I know a hostile when I see one. Trying to define it won't work.

Elit: I disagree, because simians agreed to two options: war or a preset acreage. This means that there is functionally no difference to notice before / after, except that a deal is already in place to protect our anticipated gains (the acre count). That it's a flat acreage also protects simians in the event they win and don't want to war, because we can't push them into warring us. Is there a difference between this and noticing them after the war? Not really, the same negotiation of war vs acres had to happen, and the call is made by them, not us.

Essentially, Anri merely agreed to remove notice, and he would fight us after his war concluded.

You can say that we shouldn't have let them war pyro. My personal preference is to not end peoples ages. Sure, if we hadn't made the deal, they wouldn't have been able to fight pyro. Is that really a problem? Pyro didn't mind fighting them, and they wanted to fight pyro.

Hell, you and I made the same deal last age. You CFd to let us fight pyro, with the agreement that we would give acres after.

So yes, the 'tax' is land for a CF extension, with an agreement for the land to come in the future (after a specific event) rather than the present. These deals have been common for some time.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

My personal preference is to not end peoples ages.

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The people that took over when you left apparently ended AMA's beautiful age with 1x nonsensical thread.

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Originally Posted by clawz

The people that took over when you left apparently ended AMA's beautiful age with 1x nonsensical thread.

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Deal breaks deserve GBs. Your action called for it. This isn't the thread for that discussion.

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Originally Posted by tetley

I'm not supporting dibs, but the concept behind it is easy to understand...

What if Kingdom A gives Kingdom B the button (after a week of prep), and then Kingdom B gives Kingdom C the button, and Kingdom C declares?

Is anyone in the wrong here? Is KD B wrong for dodging? Is KD C wrong for hitting KD B? Did Kingdom A "claim" anything?

This happened like 5+ times over the last 2 ages, and several times it resulted in people hitting into war.

Is it more complicated if B + C mutually agreed to break a server-known CF to make this happen? Who is in the wrong then? (And yes this happened too.)

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Kingdom B is then retarded and should get raped for waving someone else after just being handed button until they end hostile with diplomacy with Kd A. If they wave outside of hostile without diplomacy then Kd A should keep hitting but stop after a reasonable amount of time (like one additional free wave).

Dibs is a problem when someone is telling you BEFORE you even get into conflict that you cant fight anyone else except the kd that is coming for you even thought you have many options. Anyone should be free to fight who they want and no one is allowed to dictate this, if you want to fight someone wave them first and give them button but dont start dragon or forum thread and claim its hostile,very simple concept.

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Originally Posted by Palem

This thread is adorable.

You all have one primary objective and that is to swindle and screw over your competition to beat them.

Let's say you get some good definitions set down and "rules" set in place. The first thing you're gonna start doing to digging for loopholes. Ways to get around the rules and not look like the bad guys. When push comes to shove and you're backed into a corner you're going to do whatever you think you need to do anyway.

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I disagree here, personally when leading i would try to outplay the competition by being and playing smarter through use of superior strategy and positioning, not by playing dirty and dong questionable things...thats for people who are not good enough to beat someone 1v1 and look for loopholes to double hostile said kd, etc.

The purpose of this thread was to highlight the most pervasive use of lame play we have seen in the recent ages. None of this stuff is new but as you know certain strategies and ways of playing tend to fall out of favor only to come back again. The biggest problem I've seen in the post-Abs era is the use of dibs and dictating what others should do under threat of 2v1 and intentional blatant farmout to chart shape. No one enjoys being on the receiving end of this and hopefully by discussing it people can avoid doing it, or if they do it at least enough people will know its bad and will intervene if they see it happening.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

Dibs are dumb.

I know a hostile when I see one. Trying to define it won't work.

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As do I, however there is still the problem of how others define it. This age a new standard of making a couple hits and starting thread and dragon was considered hostile that had to be respected and one that could not been avoided although it is not hostile by any top kd definition. Hostile can be complicated and sometimes what appears to not be hostile actually is (PB vs all faery palem kd few ages ago) and I have no problem with this, I have a problem when people try to come up with new and stupid definitions of hostile like forum threads, tagging "vs. insert kd name here" without actually making an action in game that constitutes hostile.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

Dibs is <snip>

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Did you tell Sanctuary this when this 'discussion' took place the last time? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by Maximouse

K, let me explain the Simian situation a bit more.

Our CF with them expired before they were able to go after pew2 and pyro. I aproached Anri on irc and told him we were noticing them. Anri and I then talked since Simians prefered a CF extension over a hostile with CR. For us the situation was as followed. If we didnt make a deal with Simians we were able to take between 15K and 25K acres in probably a few days tops. We would need to train up heavily ofcourse and spent time and resources which we rather use in pumpmode. (edit: there was also the risk simians would raze retal which would take the out of the top completely and limit our gains to perhaps 10K max)
Simians prefered a deal aswell since if we waved them it would screw their plans. We settled on 20K acres as a price for the CF extension. 20K acres was at that time roughly 1.5 to 2 waves in acres. Not an uncommon price for a CF extension with a KD you dont want to face. (we took I think 12K acres in our 1st wave on simians later)
Simians made 1 other demand in the diplo talks, and that was to not take the acres untill they were done with pew2 and pyro. That demand was because if we took the acres before their upcomming conflicts it would stop them from beeing able to fight those conflicts.
So for CR, what mattered was getting the acres without having to train up and waste resources and pumptime. For Simians what mattered was them beeing able to fight the 2 conflicts they had planned. In the end we agreed to wait.
Both KD's got what they wanted as a result of diplo talks.

If we had taken the acres before simians engaged pew2 and pyro it would have directly effected the charts aswell. Pew2 probably would have been bigger, and Pyro wouldnt have warred Simians and be smaller. Perhaps pyro would then have noticed Simians, and perhaps simians would have made a deal with them. We dont know. And we would have probably been forced to train up to take the acres since Simians didnt want to deal if they were left in a position that didnt enable them to go after their objectives.

Any action any KD does effects the charts. If you wave somebody, it limits the acres your direct opponents could take from them. If you CF somebody you give them time to pump and potentialy prep to better war a direct opponent. If you war somebody and beat them, you limit the acres your opponent could take from them. And I guess you can list another dozen examples easily.

What we did was to delay our wave at the request of Simians.
Why? Because to us getting the deal was better then the alternative.

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As a competitor's point of view, I dont like what CR did because it slowed down Pyro's & Pew's progress...

As a neutral point of view, what CR did was to some extent quite brilliant. I mean, Simians & CR both agreed to that deal. CR gained by not wasting resources training up + not wasting precious pumped time, Simians gained by potentially able to 'win' both Pew & Pyro and then agreed to a forced war with CR which is also good for Simians if they can pull a rabbit out of a hat. I mean, both parties agreed to it.

In addition, doing this will allow CR to slow down their closest rivals Pyro+Pew + fattening up Simians for themselves later. I mean, it's just 'good diplo' in my opinoin. Simians had to take this chance, if not they will just hand over acres to CR and then Pew & Pyro will farm them later.

Still as a competitor and a friend of Pew, I feel :(

-cJ

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Originally Posted by Zauper

Deal breaks deserve GBs. Your action called for it. This isn't the thread for that discussion.

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Your action called deal break. Havoc is not less guilty for all situation.

omg, stfu already. This is about the glory of dibs!

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Originally Posted by American Badass

@Palem, with the attitude "don't try it wont work" nothing in the human existence would ever have gone forward. Not trying is the easy way out and like many others have said your posts could be on borderline trolling.

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I swear to god it's like you guys don't even read my posts. I'll let you have another go at it, maybe you'll get the gist of it the second time around. Also, people posting that are in disagreement with you isn't trolling. It's called having a discussion. You know, that thing that forum threads are actually for.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

I disagree here, personally when leading i would try to outplay the competition by being and playing smarter through use of superior strategy and positioning, not by playing dirty and dong questionable things...thats for people who are not good enough to beat someone 1v1 and look for loopholes to double hostile said kd, etc.

The purpose of this thread was to highlight the most pervasive use of lame play we have seen in the recent ages. None of this stuff is new but as you know certain strategies and ways of playing tend to fall out of favor only to come back again. The biggest problem I've seen in the post-Abs era is the use of dibs and dictating what others should do under threat of 2v1 and intentional blatant farmout to chart shape. No one enjoys being on the receiving end of this and hopefully by discussing it people can avoid doing it, or if they do it at least enough people will know its bad and will intervene if they see it happening.

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That's what every utopian tries to do first. There is always a backup plan though. You're basically saying that Elit is a ****ty player for breaking CF and waving CR. There is nothing wrong with trying to snatch victory from the hands of defeat. There is nothing wrong with mediocre kds being clever and grabbing a win from a much better kd (look at SWEA, for example). Most importantly, there is nothing wrong with threatening other kds that you're going to do something bad.

There is something wrong with playing a manner that actively ruins people's experience for no real productive reason. There are some bad forces in the game right now, but they're not threats and questionable play. If you want to start somewhere, start with what is clearly the worst thing to happen to the game, chartshaping. It's not clever play, it's not a way to get yourself victory. It's just spiteful play that's aimed at making sure someone else loses because you couldn't win.

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Originally Posted by Palem

If you want to start somewhere, start with what is clearly the worst thing to happen to the game, chartshaping. It's not clever play, it's not a way to get yourself victory. It's just spiteful play that's aimed at making sure someone else loses because you couldn't win.

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Full agree with you. Its why im not play serious more and just mess around and keep my grudges. Win now depend main from who is going to get other kd to farm out for win age. Noting about proper and real competition. This age was really bad too with all 4 kds CF almost all age and all pick on his only competitor. You dont promote "fair play" with talk about it, but with start play fair. Noting "fair play" have done this age from all involved kds GB us.

1. Simians Double hostile pyro. Jump Pew Pew after going down and total bully them and demand Ovenmit leave.
2. Pyro block AMA from explore/Pump for half age during his ally pump/war us. So we dont get chance to show our best for compete.
3. Havoc all age shady and lame deals. For example double hostile Fratzia after pyro first hit them. For make tax deal with Simians and Pyro. For consider deal break Pyro because deal they made early on age with Alliance was not finalized. And much more.
4. Rusty for "disband bob/not bob" and now join in GB for get CFs in return and safe explore his prov.
5.can give more examples but think you can see my point.

People can flame AMA for Deal broke but its result from Havoc actions too. I don't support deal break and im not happy my kd did it, but i don't support dibs with pre notice for notice. Its another way for build reason for double hostile or force opponent to new deal long before your deal expired. If you going to notice do it after CF expire not with forum post and rude demands.

To sum it: ATM game is like toiled. Leaders in top play really bad and lame every age. With so few kds left in game its cant continue for long before all disband.

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Originally Posted by Palem

I swear to god it's like you guys don't even read my posts. I'll let you have another go at it, maybe you'll get the gist of it the second time around. Also, people posting that are in disagreement with you isn't trolling. It's called having a discussion. You know, that thing that forum threads are actually for.



That's what every utopian tries to do first. There is always a backup plan though. You're basically saying that Elit is a ****ty player for breaking CF and waving CR. There is nothing wrong with trying to snatch victory from the hands of defeat. There is nothing wrong with mediocre kds being clever and grabbing a win from a much better kd (look at SWEA, for example). Most importantly, there is nothing wrong with threatening other kds that you're going to do something bad.

There is something wrong with playing a manner that actively ruins people's experience for no real productive reason. There are some bad forces in the game right now, but they're not threats and questionable play. If you want to start somewhere, start with what is clearly the worst thing to happen to the game, chartshaping. It's not clever play, it's not a way to get yourself victory. It's just spiteful play that's aimed at making sure someone else loses because you couldn't win.

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Your assessment of AMA is incorrect. We did not dealbreak to steal a crown, we did it only to hurt havoc. If you want to steal a crown you do it eoa not 4 weeks before age end leaving plenty of time to be gbed (which we expected). The purpose of this thread is to not talk about specific kd actions but about what is considered fair/clean and what is dirty and should be avoided.

Everyone has a stake in ending ****play because you cant always be on giving end and will have to receive it from people you do it to.

People need to realize that stupid **** like dibs and make up hostiled is ghetto and stop doing it because it is a form of ****play which results in further ****play going forward.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

Dibs are dumb.

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Are you still of the opinion that sending an early notice (not notice of notice, but noticing early) is acceptable? For example, do you still think it's cool to say to someone during their war that when their war is over you are noticing them and do you still think that counts as notice when your deal clearly states no notice into hostile/war/eowcf?

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Originally Posted by Elit

Your action called deal break. Havoc is not less guilty for all situation.

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Wrong thread to hash this in.

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Originally Posted by Elit

<off topic comments>

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Can you make an on topic post explaining your opinion of dibs and such? Or are you still of the same opinion you were when I created this same thread 3 ages ago?

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Originally Posted by Ezzerland

Can you make an on topic post explaining your opinion of dibs and such? Or are you still of the same opinion you were when I created this same thread 3 ages ago?

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Can you refer me to my opinion 3 ages ago?

What i can say is we made 1-2 ages ago forum post about our incoming wave/war with pew pew when they was in post war and we had not CF. You can tell its was dibs and not cool play and i can agree. They decide to war us and we had good 1vs1 war. Later same age when pew pew /ED had 2 run wars from us we never hit them oow.

2-3 ages ago our Situation with Strippers is complete different. For begin there is no dibs in forum. We gave proper notice after CF expired. Sure we waved them after they made run war with Pew Pew (after notice expire) but its was complete different situation.
Compare Pew Pew/Stripers vs Pew /ED. First scenario both kds had not expired CF and set war for Strippers run from us. I made attempt for diplo talk with both Silva/Pet and both ignored my msg and no reply.

Pew Pew/ED last age. Both kds had no deal so war pissed me off but was legit based to it. ED contacted me in irc with mad msg but still contacted so there was diplo too.

In short im not using dibs diplo and don't like it. Its silly play. If you want to notice do it after cf expire, if you want to war, go wave if you can legit. Don't make stupid forum post about it in advance for build reason: i was first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elit

Can you refer me to my opinion 3 ages ago?

What i can say is we made 1-2 ages ago forum post about our incoming wave/war with pew pew when they was in post war and we had not CF. You can tell its was dibs and not cool play and i can agree. They decide to war us and we had good 1vs1 war. Later same age when pew pew /ED had 2 run wars from us we never hit them oow.

Pew Pew/ED last age. Both kds had no deal so war pissed me off but was legit based to it. ED contacted me in irc with mad msg but still contacted so there was diplo too.

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Actually it was Proteus who started dibs thing, I'm glad he wanted to end it. But he made dibs after we warred Sanc because it was "his acres".

I'm glad you admit what you did to us was wrong, and I'm happy you stayed out of our war against ED. However it was not cool to claim so much fw and cry in forums about all unfairness.
As you may noticed yourself, it is not motivating to go against kingdoms 30-50 % larger than you, no matter how good you are (This age you played very well).

Stopping dibs is simple, it's not doing it yourself, ( I don't mean you Elit, I mean everyone).

But with so few kingdoms on the server it is hard not to fall for that temptation. One should ask, how do we get more players to the servers ?

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Originally Posted by Elit

Can you refer me to my opinion 3 ages ago?

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I did already on page 1 of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elit

What i can say is <snip>

In short im not using dibs diplo and don't like it. Its silly play. If you want to notice do it after cf expire, if you want to war, go wave if you can legit. Don't make stupid forum post about it in advance for build reason: i was first.

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The "in short" part is what I was looking for. You agree that dibs needs to go. I'm glad you are willing to speak up this time, instead of things like this:

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Originally Posted by Elit

I'm Sure your intention is good. Just its wont change much.

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3 ages ago, the majority of the community had no interest in addressing **** play. Realistically, I guess we should thank AMA for deal breaking to restore interest in drawing a line. That includes your internal interest.

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Originally Posted by Elit

What you did this age is "TAX" have noting with what you describe up. When you gave notice Simians Did you wave them? No you delay your wave for let them wave/war other kd. This direct affected Pew Pew and Pyro. If you have processed your wave and gain your acres from Simins this will restul Pew Pew not get waved. Its much more complicated from how you explain it.
Send notice AFTER cf expire is ok and Wave if second kd agree to trade land for CF is ok too. But send notice for let them wave/war other kd and get acres later is kind of chart shape.

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Tax was a made up word to piss you off

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Originally Posted by TheOne

As a competitor's point of view, I dont like what CR did because it slowed down Pyro's & Pew's progress...

As a neutral point of view, what CR did was to some extent quite brilliant. I mean, Simians & CR both agreed to that deal. CR gained by not wasting resources training up + not wasting precious pumped time, Simians gained by potentially able to 'win' both Pew & Pyro and then agreed to a forced war with CR which is also good for Simians if they can pull a rabbit out of a hat. I mean, both parties agreed to it.

In addition, doing this will allow CR to slow down their closest rivals Pyro+Pew + fattening up Simians for themselves later. I mean, it's just 'good diplo' in my opinoin. Simians had to take this chance, if not they will just hand over acres to CR and then Pew & Pyro will farm them later.

Still as a competitor and a friend of Pew, I feel :(

-cJ

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You dont feel the same way when pewpew force simians into 4 wars over requests of free waves, ofc not.


Regarding the war vs Pyro

Nesta more or less came in and saved the war when several players in Pyro had their minds on WD without knowing better. Anyway, if we had won the war we knew damn well we could fight Havoc and with our tacts exit war min time surrender with hardly any losses at all. What has not been explained is that we had a deal that we cant round 2 each other aswell, on top of the others deals you read about here. Basicly, if we had won the fight vs Pyro we would have warred CR afterwards and wd min time with our tacts, should have tops made us lose 5k acres by min time and give us EoWcf period to pump and fight whoever would have been below us. We would acctually have been #2 and pumping in EoWcf with a decent pool if plan had worked and with a lot of kds below us without any real cfs. CR would have been happy with the WW, we would have been happy with warring them for low losses. Only with a loss vs Pyro they could take the 20k acres, otherwise they would have got those 20k acres in a war from the WW bonus if they had won the war. We would have had lots of targets to pick from below us and age had been looking good. This was our way to navigate thru t10 and try to get a chance to both have fun wars and chart as high as possible since we had to make a comeback from the events start of this age that slowed us down to much.

Damn right is was a brilliant plan but in the end of the day the 48h notice to Pyro stopped our plans, because this notice deal was what gave Pyro the edge to beat us.

Ok, this was one of the most complexed deals we ever made, i liked the "no round 2" deal best.
They get WW more then likely, we dont lose a lot of acres with our tacts if we lose the war, we both get EoWcf and my KD really does not have to lose any acres and be on top of t10 etc to farm kds below while we were hoping CR would have lots more CFs then we had. It was win win situation for both our KDs no matter how we looked at it.

Maybe game is broken ;-)

Anyway, its funny how all these small things and deals effect our age and other kds ages.

cJ, lucky you that Nesta is not as naive as you are and acctually knew he could turn the war to a win with the banks.

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Originally Posted by Lurking Ghost

Actually it was Proteus who started dibs thing, I'm glad he wanted to end it. But he made dibs after we warred Sanc because it was "his acres".

I'm glad you admit what you did to us was wrong, and I'm happy you stayed out of our war against ED. However it was not cool to claim so much fw and cry in forums about all unfairness.
As you may noticed yourself, it is not motivating to go against kingdoms 30-50 % larger than you, no matter how good you are (This age you played very well).

Stopping dibs is simple, it's not doing it yourself, ( I don't mean you Elit, I mean everyone).

But with so few kingdoms on the server it is hard not to fall for that temptation. One should ask, how do we get more players to the servers ?

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The first part of you post looks like attack/troll post, this is not what the thread is about...i have been polite to everyone here and all other posters have maintained a similar air so id encourage you to do the same.

I never started dibs, many can confirm this.

As per your specific comment on sanc, you had a nap unless you are 80% land or NW range deal based on goodwill alone because there was no incentive to give you that deal otherwise (any abs kd that age would have picked you apart). However, after you got the deal you proceeded to hit sanc immediately after their conflict with AMA ended oow without waiting at all. So I told you guys after that you would get notice if you hit 80% land but land drop after because you vultured sanc. This was not dibs, this was telling you that you were going to get noticed even if you land drop due to goodwill abuse and potential deal abuse. I never told you that we were going to hit you no matter what or 2v1, I said if you are 80% land at the end of war you will receive notice even if you land drop out of 80% after. In the end we gave you another cf extension in return for promise to war us which we did not need to do but we did (you never warred us though because you got upset we wanted to exploit all advantages oow before giving button but that was fine according to our deal as button had to be given/pushed within 4days and we only held it back for <24h).

Also dibs was probably invented a very long time ago, dorje brought it back into play when he called dibs on simians.

This is disappointing because for some reason I see the top kingdoms deem themselves serious play. The traditional top has tremendous access to the best players, the best tools and years of experience to sculpt their kingdoms. I'm not saying it's easy at all, in fact I'm saying what a terrible waste of quality and effort.

Here we have a thread dedicated to a solution. It's fair that the debate gets heated, but it shouldn't curl up like every other thread into a biggest crapfest. Why not try to give yourselves ample curtesy to work toward an answer? If a know nothing ghetto hopper like myself can see this I expect you know this to. Work toward a constructive end.

Think about the fact that beginning of age so much time is spent constituting kingdom balance, establishing allies and projected age planning. With all the effort spent it may well come down to one wave ruining an age, but the pageantry of being there is something to be celebrated and embraced. Thus, diplomacy was the elixir that meant you are among elite company.

I for one don't like being dictated what to build, how to build and when to build it. I respect those that do embark on the unity of kingdom and sacrifice time and personal endeavor to be part of something the likes of a top kingdom. It's for them I feel sorry for when the echelon they have attained resorts to ghetto tactics. Might as well slap a strat together and aim high. So while I'm not a part of your community I'd like to remain a fan. A few guys I know have migrated up there recently so I'd like the show to be worth it for their sake.

The answer to all this lies in fixing game mechanics. Get rid of max meter auto war and you no longer have dibs on anyone. If kd B doesn't want to war you, they'll just retal you until you go away, and then kd C can take a stab/wave. I made some other suggestions in suggestion sub thread forums also for those of you who don't want to get rid of the auto war feature for obvious reasons. We need a compromise, and max meter auto war is not a compromise, it makes the game broken and boring.

Among other things that is boring in the game are banks. Devs either need to kill banking altogether (no exploring when overpopped), or make it easy for even the crappiest ghetto to cow, and make it so that no top kd can use it's core to farm the ghetto cow (linear formula with no bounce troop losses). If cow A is better than cow B then farming will happen without help anyways. These are the only two options for banks. Kill it or make it easy for every kd. I prefer the latter, but that'll never happen, so let's kill what's making this game a sn0re.

Edit: If you check suggestions forums you can find some other suggestions that compliment the above ideas for improved gameplay. You don't even need naps embedded into the game, you just need to change some basic game mechanics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anri

You dont feel the same way when pewpew force simians into 4 wars over requests of free waves, ofc not.


Regarding the war vs Pyro

Nesta more or less came in and saved the war when several players in Pyro had their minds on WD without knowing better. Anyway, if we had won the war we knew damn well we could fight Havoc and with our tacts exit war min time surrender with hardly any losses at all. What has not been explained is that we had a deal that we cant round 2 each other aswell, on top of the others deals you read about here. Basicly, if we had won the fight vs Pyro we would have warred CR afterwards and wd min time with our tacts, should have tops made us lose 5k acres by min time and give us EoWcf period to pump and fight whoever would have been below us. We would acctually have been #2 and pumping in EoWcf with a decent pool if plan had worked and with a lot of kds below us without any real cfs. CR would have been happy with the WW, we would have been happy with warring them for low losses. Only with a loss vs Pyro they could take the 20k acres, otherwise they would have got those 20k acres in a war from the WW bonus if they had won the war. We would have had lots of targets to pick from below us and age had been looking good. This was our way to navigate thru t10 and try to get a chance to both have fun wars and chart as high as possible since we had to make a comeback from the events start of this age that slowed us down to much.

Damn right is was a brilliant plan but in the end of the day the 48h notice to Pyro stopped our plans, because this notice deal was what gave Pyro the edge to beat us.

Ok, this was one of the most complexed deals we ever made, i liked the "no round 2" deal best.
They get WW more then likely, we dont lose a lot of acres with our tacts if we lose the war, we both get EoWcf and my KD really does not have to lose any acres and be on top of t10 etc to farm kds below while we were hoping CR would have lots more CFs then we had. It was win win situation for both our KDs no matter how we looked at it.

Maybe game is broken ;-)

Anyway, its funny how all these small things and deals effect our age and other kds ages.

cJ, lucky you that Nesta is not as naive as you are and acctually knew he could turn the war to a win with the banks.

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Lol. First I know full well the position of pyro at all times of the war vs simians. Guess that me being humble in the forums and stating that simians almost got us blah blah, you actually really bought it and thought you were in a great position. Maybe next time when we war, I don't have to be humble in victory when we own you. If you realized, in any of pyro-xx wars, I never put down my opponents when we war or prewar.

I know full well the peasant counts and ubness of both sides, and you guys couldn't fb me down and I was basically funding most of the drakes (same against bb in that war). Even you mentioned it yourself to me in pm that I did great being able to hit op and fund drake as a faery sage despite just doubling 48hrs before war :) (thanks for your compliments. )

And ofc, pyro knew that the 48hrs notice was crucial in our victory plans, and hence I tactically made you openly state it in the forums, cause if you had dealbroken... It would be in black and white that you dealbroke. *taps cj on his back*

You basically had stronger core(due to 'vulturing' us post war) but at the end of the day, our top feeding orcs and disciplined chaining made our core stronger than yours in the end. This is a classic example on how to fight a kingdom who has a stronger core than you.

Too bad we spoilt your masterplan for the age. And yes, I think this is my first 'say what you want and don't bother to be tactful' post in forums for quite some time.

Oh btw, I was 'defending' cr and simians decision for the 'tax' deal and it is funny how you decide to use my post to shoot me. Lol.

And there is nth wrong what pew did to you end of last age. They wanted honour crown, and you couldn't defend your crown. They are not gg to say 'oh we will stop waving you and hence give you your crown'. It is unfortunate that simians were able to defend themselves and hence had to give up the crown. There is no free lunch in the world. Why should pew stop waving you when you were their direct competitor for honour crown?

On the other hand, what you did to pew this age is wtf. Almost disbanded them.

-CJ

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Originally Posted by TheOne

And there is nth wrong what pew did to you end of last age. They wanted honour crown, and you couldn't defend your crown. They are not gg to say 'oh we will stop waving you and hence give you your crown'. It is unfortunate that simians were able to defend themselves and hence had to give up the crown. There is no free lunch in the world. Why should pew stop waving you when you were their direct competitor for honour crown?

On the other hand, what you did to pew this age is wtf. Almost disbanded them.

-CJ

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Massive logical disconnect here.

If we assume that Pew2 could arrange a sci for land trade ( which they did) while organising for their high honor provs to maintain their honor(which they did), in order to go for the honor crown, while threatening unlimited waves. Then frankly Sims utilising their position to do unlimited waves until Ovenmitt leaves, due to hacking and forcing a fair play agreement is extremely ethical.

I don't believe a majority of the game would disagree with Sims actions.

And wtf?

I'm no Sims fan! But PewPew played it dirty last age and bullied them to **** with high chance of Ovenmitt playing for himself. So,
Sims at least when they pulled the similar **** back, gave a diplo fair play option and didn't go all in. **** negro, I'd have been way more evil.

I wouldn't have stopped as quickly as Sims did. Pew did more to disband a kd. Sims took the high road.

Lel what cJ??

Ovenmitt totally gutted simians last age, feeding honor crown(s) to pew deliberately and then leaving and joining Pew. He also leaked intel from their bot at beginning of age.

Why should Sims feel bad for seeking revenge and forcing ovenmitt to leave?

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Originally Posted by tetley

Lel what cJ??

Ovenmitt totally gutted simians last age, feeding honor crown(s) to pew deliberately and then leaving and joining Pew. He also leaked intel from their bot at beginning of age.

Why should Sims feel bad for seeking revenge and forcing ovenmitt to leave?

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Sims are at equal fault for having ****ty bot security. If you don't reset access that your own fault. I've jokingly quit a kd before and had bot access removed in the 5 minutes I was gone.
I don't think, and from what I have heard there is no evidence that Ovenmitt intentionally fed honor to Pew.

My understanding was he left just after age had already started which is why he still had access (but, I could be wrong on that)