Rampage, theres no set answer to BE, PPA, and DR its going to vary consantly, my kd sets DR to 70 % early age 80% late age on pure attackers.
@ noobium why do u dislike econ heavy setups like undead merchant when used kd wide.
I don't dislike econ heavy setups at all. The problem is that Undead Merchant is not econ heavy, because Undead economy is crap. Dwarves are a much better econ race, whether they pick Merchant or not. Even Orc/Merchant is okay. Undeads face the problem of not only having vulnerable peasants and vulnerable troops, but running too many UD is bad anyway.
The really strong economic core of a warring kingdom is in it's t/ms anyway, given that Human is basically unplayable in warring kingdoms. If there is an economic pick for attacker, it's Dwarf/Cleric due to freebuild and sustainability outstripping the standard Merchant bonuses.
05-01-2015, 02:02
UtopiaExpert
Quote:
but running too many UD is bad anyway.
Agreed. You need Orcs.
05-01-2015, 02:34
Rampage
Okay so continuing on from that topic and into Science: what is the category I should be prioritising here as an Attacker, given I started late in the age (Yr9-10)? I have put high amounts in Tools/Military (60-70 bpa) {you stated high BE wasn't that important}, and then even amounts in Housing, Crime and Channeling (15-25 bpa). These numbers are very diluted because I grew 400-500 acres in the last two days. Also how do our priorities change depending on the point in the age? I assume Food and Income are very good early in the age for Races other than Undead.
05-01-2015, 02:45
neanderthal
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtopiaExpert
Agreed. You need Orcs.
It's funny. 8 of the top 10 kds on the war charts disagree. Others, yes they do have Orcs but they are secondary to Undeads. The vast majority at the top of the chart's heavy attackers are undead.
05-01-2015, 02:57
UtopiaExpert
Quote:
It's funny. 8 of the top 10 kds on the war charts disagree. Others, yes they do have Orcs but they are secondary to Undeads. The vast majority at the top of the chart's heavy attackers are undead.
Just imagine how good they'd have been had they run Orcs instead of Undeads. Who cares about the war-charts anyways?
05-01-2015, 05:03
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampage
Okay so continuing on from that topic and into Science: what is the category I should be prioritising here as an Attacker, given I started late in the age (Yr9-10)? I have put high amounts in Tools/Military (60-70 bpa) {you stated high BE wasn't that important}, and then even amounts in Housing, Crime and Channeling (15-25 bpa). These numbers are very diluted because I grew 400-500 acres in the last two days. Also how do our priorities change depending on the point in the age? I assume Food and Income are very good early in the age for Races other than Undead.
If you start late, just get military science and learn attack for the rest.
In the early age, housing and alchemy are worth more than they are later, and that is where I usually dump the first war win's science.
Most attackers do well by going for housing and military science, since they lead to the best direct bonuses to attacking power and help in attaining the other sciences faster. I like to have roughly even levels of both and alchemy, and about 1/3 of my housing investment in tools+food, at least up until YR4-5. Aside from that, it depends on race and personality picks. Also note that food science becomes less and less valuable at higher bpas, but it's still a valuable science for anyone. After the first month of the age is when you should assess where you are and who you are going to fight, and diversify your sciences according to your kingdom strategy.
Also note that early age you might want to crash invest in channeling or crime in order to help your first war, and even if you don't, you should still attain basic levels in all sciences. Generally I like to get up to 16-25 bpa in everything before prioritizing housing (or, use the first war win to get housing+alchemy and backfill the rest).
Also, if you plan to invest in crime/channeling, or are uncertain what you are going to do, you should not invest your books until they are needed, since crime/channeling aren't very useful oow.
By mid-age (YR6 or so), avian and dwarf attackers should look at even investment in everything, as should any Sages (at least in war kingdoms). Elves should be roughly even on everything as well, and rely on their racial and likely personality bonus to stay effective as casters. Orcs should be going mostly for housing+military and learn attack for crime/channeling they need, but they should have at least 1/5 as many crime/channeling books as they have housing+military. Undeads favor channeling science, which they can attain from not needing or wanting alchemy+food+crime. Halfers should just go straight for housing+crime in order to maximize their racial attributes, with that they can either have the mTPA needed to op other t/m or drop some rTPA for extra military.
It is better to look at ratios of science rather than bpa in each category, though bpa per category is a good marker to know when to shift your priorities. You generally don't need more than 256 bpa in housing for instance, and alchemy shouldn't go much past 100-120 bpa unless playing Merchant. Also helpful is investment at the right time... the best time to pick up housing+alchemy is just after a war win, while backfilling the others to your desired ratio.
By late age I like having crime if I'm Avian, balanced science if I'm Dwarf (and a higher priority to tools+food early on), military if I'm Orc, and channeling if I'm Undead. If playing Sage, you should aim for level science in everything from an early point, in order to get the most bonuses for the least investment, while Mystics and Rogues obviously benefit from crash investment in their specialties. If I'm Elf, I like to have level investment in everything early, even if I'm Mystic, so I can rely on my racial bonus, likely personality bonus, and priority to wpa pumping to be effective for the first month or so; having good bases is useful for not falling behind other attackers early, even if I play a pure t/m. Human favors housing and alchemy, but they're horrible if not playing a true cow. Halflings want housing and crime from a very early point, in order to be able to better op t/ms - using high crime mods alternatively allows for a reduction in rTPA in exchange for military, while still being able to op attackers.
05-01-2015, 05:22
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by neanderthal
It's funny. 8 of the top 10 kds on the war charts disagree. Others, yes they do have Orcs but they are secondary to Undeads. The vast majority at the top of the chart's heavy attackers are undead.
If the most veteran kingdoms choose to make a bad decision, they'll still likely win because experience.
Undead are okay but majority undead is bad, and undead/merchant is bad. I much prefer Dwarf or Avian over both Orcs and Undead if I'm in a warring kingdom that expects to fight often, but warring kingdoms this age should be primarily defensive provinces anyway. For a race that uses less than a normal number of attackers, Undead are fine since they require less support, but still, it's one province that is permanently locked out of thievery, and that sucks when trying to be a warring kingdom.
If you want to be a warring kingdom, you really should try not to rely on attrition to win your wars anyway. While Undead has more than just attrition working in their favor, they have some serious liabilities too, which means using more than a few is a bad idea.
Of course it's easy to win against some of the badplay that is prevalent in the modern game with just about any setup, but against equally matched kingdoms in terms of skill and activity (and sometimes presumably worse skill/activity), undeads aren't all that good, as the close wars have shown. Sustaining doesn't help when they can't hit a good defense and can't thieve.
The only Undead I'd want to run in large numbers, Undead/Rogue, has its own set of problems. But fielding 4-5 undead tacticians, warriors, or mystics is perfectly fine, but they really have to be casting in order to be worthwhile.
05-01-2015, 09:28
UtopiaExpert
Quote:
If the most veteran kingdoms choose to make a bad decision, they'll still likely win because experience.
This guy, he gets it.
If Real Madrid decides to play some retarded system, they're still going to beat a 3rd division team because... well because they have better players.
05-01-2015, 12:26
FATstrat
Hey man, I understand that dwarfs are not a popular core, but why are they the least picked race when people talk so highly of them? Also, what personality would you go for with dwarf? i'm looking to gain acres, create a nw gap, then shut up shop and create some gold. Currently on a dwarf merchant and its working pretty decent.
05-01-2015, 13:25
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by FATstrat
Hey man, I understand that dwarfs are not a popular core, but why are they the least picked race when people talk so highly of them? Also, what personality would you go for with dwarf? i'm looking to gain acres, create a nw gap, then shut up shop and create some gold. Currently on a dwarf merchant and its working pretty decent.
Because Dwarves are seen as boring and dull? I dunno.
They're not as good as they were last age but they're still pretty good.
Just bear in mind that Dwarves are pretty weak for short-term wars, and it takes some work to prevent Dwarf from turning into a landfarm. That said the easiest way to prevent that is to pick Cleric, now that it's buffed back to -50% losses. Merchant works fine too, mostly for how easy it is to rebuild with them.
Forget about "building a nw gap" - if people need to topfeed to bring down a breakable province, they will - or they'll just massacre so it's left a very large landfarm in prime nw range. Think more about being unbreakable or 1-tappable if you can, and handling a chain if you can't (which is more often the case in warring kingdoms). You don't want to drop too low in nw that you can't hit a target, but that usually only happens if you get chained from a really bad position (something which your racial bonuses are pretty good at preventing actually). The tradeoff is that Dwarves have the weakest or second-weakest set of offensive outputs, depending on how good Avian would be for you.
Training defense too early can be a mistake, if your defense is too far from secure - better to train offspec or nothing at all than to throw money and soldiers away.
07-01-2015, 00:58
Feint
Which race/personality make the best bank? Taking into consideration the ease of growing right after oop, and later in age. Also during war, which type of bank can be effective and versatile.
07-01-2015, 03:00
noobium
I'm not really qualified to answer questions that apply to top kingdoms, but word of flogger is Faery cannot bank (loses as attacker in bank vs. bank situations). I would imagine that it follows that Human is the best for bank vs. bank fights. Being able to tog and fok as a bank without picking Merch would put those two well above others, assuming they can be raised. The problem with Human is that if they're a fail bank they suck, while Faery and Dwarf are safe options for t/m or attacker.
The cows I saw all used exploration to grow during the early game. It's more important to have strong support oop, and killers to threaten others' cows.
For everyone who isn't a growth kingdom, forget about cows or "banks". It's a good idea to approach t/ms like cows though, and fight wars in a way that acres flow to them.
On that point, one of the most infuriating habits in the ghetto is landphobia on t/ms. Chances are, if your t/m can't handle 20% acre bloat, they were a crappy t/m at their base size. Acres on defensive provinces are way more good than bad, especially in early wars.
Usually the problem with ghettos is that they are absolutely horrible at handling enemy t/ms, but most times this is counterbalanced by ghettos being horrible at utilizing t/ms in the first place. Sometimes you can't take in acres without being exposed too much defensively, and you might want a province held back for MS... but offensively, it's better to have a lower success rate and economy, than to have no economy but a 10-20% higher success rate. Economy and military don't have fail rates, and anything without a fail rate is much more reliable.
07-01-2015, 05:24
Feint
I am contemplating to try for growth next age..so i reckon human sage as a better option?
13-01-2015, 03:32
pukusam
any1 knows the math behind bouncing??
13-01-2015, 03:41
noobium
the math is bouncing is dumb and so are you.
13-01-2015, 04:08
pukusam
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
the math is bouncing is dumb and so are you.
heh thanks alot. :) a player like you who just throws personal insults shld just f off.
13-01-2015, 04:54
noobium
your kingdom is still stupid for trying to bounce in your position.
13-01-2015, 08:33
Elit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feint
Which race/personality make the best bank? Taking into consideration the ease of growing right after oop, and later in age. Also during war, which type of bank can be effective and versatile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feint
I am contemplating to try for growth next age..so i reckon human sage as a better option?
You cant get correct answer when we don't know next age changes. Still here is more from one correct answer. No perfect setups all depend from how you manage your kingdom and your politic.
13-01-2015, 09:24
noobium
I'm basing assumption on "what would i do if i started this age", next age can be a totally different beast.
I should also have said, don't bother with a bank if you aren't a competitive growth kingdom. Fail banks are just waiting to get farmed. The most common setup I'm seeing is raising 3-4 large provinces, and hoping at least 2 survive to grow huge.
In ghettoplay though, I like to play my t/ms with the expectation that they can stack acres, economy, and thus win, and it works quite well. Faery is obviously the best at it, but Elf can do good too. It is not without dangers and needs to be approached with care, but fighting wars this way is a lot better for your long-term positioning for a lot of setups. It is often better to tolerate a higher fail rate on spells, so long as you're defensively sound. (And I'm talking about a bad defense being something which gets fireballed, nadoed, LL'd, and thieved to pieces, not "omg someone cast meteors on me". You're going to get meteors at some point, if only because the RNG hates you and gives some mystic a lucky roll.)
13-01-2015, 19:22
Hunting
New question;
How much libraries should i run at certain points. For example what %libraries should i run with;
a) 100bpa
b) 500bpa
c) 750bpa
13-01-2015, 19:41
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunting
New question;
How much libraries should i run at certain points. For example what %libraries should i run with;
a) 100bpa
b) 500bpa
c) 750bpa
it has nothing to do directly with bpa, it has to do with when the effects are (a) equivalent to other buildings in your province taken together or (b) useful for their own sake.
(a) is usually applied to farms only, since the other types you'd either want to maximize outputs, or other buildings do better. (b) is usually for channeling science, since it stands alone for wpa and improves your rune production as a bonus. Technically, if you invest roughly even levels in everything, the rule of 1% libs per 100 bpa generally holds true, but libs don't replace certain building types. An attacker can usually play without libraries and lose very little, if they need land for hospitals and whatnot. Generally though, libs are for provinces with a strong magic affinity, which should be a lot of provinces in war kingdoms. I'd want them for Undead, Avian, Human, and the t/ms. Orcs have crap science and want a lot of other buildngs. Dwarves really like the reduction buildings (wt, gs, hosps) that libs can't replace, and libs ignore their BE bonus anyway. For an attacker, you'd probably build them for the free farmland and minor econ buff, but wouldn't bother rebuilding them... and attacker land is so volatile that you really can't micro in libs. t/ms should swear by them if they can hold on to worthwhile sciences, especially Elves.
Using libs in war as a chained province has some utility, mostly for the huge +wpa - but spellcasting is still a crapshoot due to nw penalties, and there are much better building strategies to use post-chain.
If you have super good sciences, like 400+ bpa in everything, then libs are pretty obvious regardless of race or role, but they're still not replacing a lot of building types. Having the better numbers is usually worth it for a/t/ming, assuming you give no ****s about amnesia or learn attack.
19-01-2015, 10:22
Dipa
Question : How much thieves should be sent for each sabotage ops?
TIA
19-01-2015, 10:59
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipa
Question : How much thieves should be sent for each sabotage ops?
TIA
It's based on how much of a given resource is present. The figures I get from plugging numbers into Angel and what I can recall from experience are roughly (assuming ideal nw range):
Rob vaults: 1 thief per 765gc (no relations, cap ~5% of total stock), 1 thief per 600gc (war, cap about ~14% of total stock)
Rob granaries: 1 thief per 300 bushels (no relations, cap ~31.5% of total stock), 1 thief per 240 bushles (war, cap about 46% of total stock)
Rob towers: 1 thief per 85 runes (no relations, cap ~21.3% of total stock), 1 thief per 60 runes (war, cap ~36% of total stock)
Kidnap: 1 thief per 5.5 peasants (war, cap 4% of total stock). There is also a hidden 50% gains penalty for kidnapping someone with low peasants/acre, this needs to be tested but it's been shown to exist. Don't bother outside of war, the gains are too terrible to waste your stealth, and the cap is like 1.4%
.
Nightstrike (soldiers): 1 thief per 5 soldiers (war, cap 13% of total stock)
Nightstrike (defspecs+offspecs): 1 thief per 5 specialists (war, cap 0.55% of total stock). Defspecs and Offspecs are affected by the same cap; add the number of defspecs and offspecs to determine the cap you're trying to reach when kiling specs.
Nightstrike (elites): 1 thief per 4 elites (war, cap 0.3% of total stock)
Soldiers, defspecs, and elites are killed on the same operation, but have seperate caps for each. I am not positive how the presence of one affects kills for the other, and I'm pretty sure these values are off, but they are close to what you should be sending to reach cap. By the way, NS doesn't care whether the troops are at home or out.
Steal Horses: 1 thief per 1.8 horses (peacetime, cap ~6.3% of stock), 1 thief per 2 horses (war, cap 6.8% of stock). The damage inflicted is twice what you take for yourself. Only horses at home can be stolen.
Arson: ???, approximately 3 thieves per target acre I think gets the cap on gains. It's not very strong though. Barren acres are included in basic arson if I'm not mistaken, so your gain will be constant but reduced by whatever % is barren.
Sabotage Wizards: ???, damage is based on how much mana the target has. In my rough experiments a while back, sending 2 tpa (target's acres) tends to get good returns at high mana levels, and it takes 16% of the target's mana in one op (so naturally, not worth it if your target has less than 32% mana).
Assassinate Wizards: Formula is in the guide somewhere. Cap is around 1.4% of the target's wizards, but since you can't see wizards outright, you'll either have to calculate the target's wpa or send until you find the cap.
Incite Riots: ??? but sending 4*target's acres is usually enough to get good duration on riots. The returns on this op have a significant random factor, with the lower end about half of the upper end. However, sending under the cap will have a linear effect. Practically speaking, you shouldn't waste your stealth on anything other than a long-duration Riot, since it's purely a holding action. Riots is surprisingly easy to land in my experience.
Propaganda: ???, has no known cap but the gains are highly random. Usually, sending 4*target's acres gives a significant portion of the target's specialist troops. Offense and Defense specialists are targetted seperately. Most people just send all for the best gains, but if you need to conserve tpa it's fine to send 3-4 of your tpa in order to limit losses and improve success rate. A Propaganda that takes defense specialists is incredibly strong, as I have observed props 5-6x as effective as a nightstrike; therefore, you have a reasonable chance of coming out ahead using Propaganda instead of NS when targetting defense. Propaganda is incredibly hard though, and thief losses are higher with the more difficult ops. You can only propaganda troops at home, so usually elites are an empty gain unless propping a t/m.
19-01-2015, 13:19
Dipa
Thank you. This will be helpful a lot. *screen shot*
19-01-2015, 17:49
2Utopian
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
Propaganda:Usually, sending 4*target's tpa gives a significant portion of the target's specialist troops.
I know what you tried to say, but you should revisit this formula :D I wondered who was proping me with 20 thieves.
19-01-2015, 22:09
noobium
oops, brainfart again. fixed. ^_^
20-01-2015, 00:14
Fire
Why do you try steal meeps thread?
20-01-2015, 01:00
noobium
Because I'm a dirty, dirty poacher.
20-01-2015, 02:08
Gidoza
Why do you have a happy sunshine avatar when you're a dirty, dirty poacher?
20-01-2015, 02:08
Fire
:O oh no...
Your display picture makes you look so cheery and clean.. This saddens me ='(
20-01-2015, 02:09
Gidoza
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidoza
Why do you have a happy sunshine avatar when you're a dirty, dirty poacher?
It's because he knows the glory of the sun and is using the avatar to draw him to better and more noble ways.
20-01-2015, 02:09
Fire
Ahh look at that it's basically a double post
20-01-2015, 02:10
Gidoza
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire
Ahh look at that it's basically a double post
And by Fire, which the sun is.
20-01-2015, 02:15
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidoza
Why do you have a happy sunshine avatar when you're a dirty, dirty poacher?
Someone in wsk told me my gloom level was too high, so I needed a little sunshine in my life. Now I'm a happy camper.
20-01-2015, 02:20
Fire
Just dirty is all
20-01-2015, 07:56
Dipa
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
It's based on how much of a given resource is present. The figures I get from plugging numbers into Angel and what I can recall from experience are roughly (assuming ideal nw range):
Rob vaults: 1 thief per 765gc (no relations, cap ~5% of total stock), 1 thief per 600gc (war, cap about ~14% of total stock)
Rob granaries: 1 thief per 300 bushels (no relations, cap ~31.5% of total stock), 1 thief per 240 bushles (war, cap about 46% of total stock)
Rob towers: 1 thief per 85 runes (no relations, cap ~21.3% of total stock), 1 thief per 60 runes (war, cap ~36% of total stock)
Kidnap: 1 thief per 5.5 peasants (war, cap 4% of total stock). There is also a hidden 50% gains penalty for kidnapping someone with low peasants/acre, this needs to be tested but it's been shown to exist. Don't bother outside of war, the gains are too terrible to waste your stealth, and the cap is like 1.4%
.
Nightstrike (soldiers): 1 thief per 5 soldiers (war, cap 13% of total stock)
Nightstrike (defspecs+offspecs): 1 thief per 5 specialists (war, cap 0.55% of total stock). Defspecs and Offspecs are affected by the same cap; add the number of defspecs and offspecs to determine the cap you're trying to reach when kiling specs.
Nightstrike (elites): 1 thief per 4 elites (war, cap 0.3% of total stock)
Soldiers, defspecs, and elites are killed on the same operation, but have seperate caps for each. I am not positive how the presence of one affects kills for the other, and I'm pretty sure these values are off, but they are close to what you should be sending to reach cap. By the way, NS doesn't care whether the troops are at home or out.
Steal Horses: 1 thief per 1.8 horses (peacetime, cap ~6.3% of stock), 1 thief per 2 horses (war, cap 6.8% of stock). The damage inflicted is twice what you take for yourself. Only horses at home can be stolen.
Arson: ???, approximately 3 thieves per target acre I think gets the cap on gains. It's not very strong though. Barren acres are included in basic arson if I'm not mistaken, so your gain will be constant but reduced by whatever % is barren.
Sabotage Wizards: ???, damage is based on how much mana the target has. In my rough experiments a while back, sending 2 tpa (target's acres) tends to get good returns at high mana levels, and it takes 16% of the target's mana in one op (so naturally, not worth it if your target has less than 32% mana).
Assassinate Wizards: Formula is in the guide somewhere. Cap is around 1.4% of the target's wizards, but since you can't see wizards outright, you'll either have to calculate the target's wpa or send until you find the cap.
Incite Riots: ??? but sending 4*target's acres is usually enough to get good duration on riots. The returns on this op have a significant random factor, with the lower end about half of the upper end. However, sending under the cap will have a linear effect. Practically speaking, you shouldn't waste your stealth on anything other than a long-duration Riot, since it's purely a holding action. Riots is surprisingly easy to land in my experience.
Propaganda: ???, has no known cap but the gains are highly random. Usually, sending 4*target's acres gives a significant portion of the target's specialist troops. Offense and Defense specialists are targetted seperately. Most people just send all for the best gains, but if you need to conserve tpa it's fine to send 3-4 of your tpa in order to limit losses and improve success rate. A Propaganda that takes defense specialists is incredibly strong, as I have observed props 5-6x as effective as a nightstrike; therefore, you have a reasonable chance of coming out ahead using Propaganda instead of NS when targetting defense. Propaganda is incredibly hard though, and thief losses are higher with the more difficult ops. You can only propaganda troops at home, so usually elites are an empty gain unless propping a t/m.
How do racial mods of farey and avian effect? Does it increase the cap or lower theives count?
20-01-2015, 16:12
noobium
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipa
How do racial mods of farey and avian effect? Does it increase the cap or lower theives count?
It increases the cap, but you'd send the name number of thieves in order to reach it. Same with watchtowers.
edit: note that Unfriendly and Hostile status (as the aggressor) increases thief gains as well. the rates are significantly better in hostile, but slightly worse than war. Angel doesn't show this and I don't think the guide does either.
22-01-2015, 12:25
UtopiaExpert
Does an in-range massacre/plunder/learn bounce kill as many troops as a raze/TM bounce (in-range)?
22-01-2015, 18:21
noobium
i don't bother with bouncing so i have no idea on that. my understanding is that mass/plunder/learn bounces add GBP but raze/TM bounces don't.
22-01-2015, 23:29
UtopiaExpert
Does anyone else happen to know this? Bouncing is a very strong tactic btw:)
Another question.
If you cast MV on an Orc and it gets reflected, but you have MA on, does it get blocked?
