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The one... did u or did u not agree to a CF where it says clearlly: NO NOTICE TO NOTICE!?... you did, so why in the hell are u trying to twist things @ in ur favor. Its pointed black on white u did agree to that.. end of story. "Thank you" to quote you.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOne
we care even less about you man. We have no intention into farming u or whateva - thats not our style. You are used as a shell according to our deals, nothing more nothing less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrystal Palace
So an argument that "who would agree to such thing anyway" is moot because it was agreed to.
Likewise, regardless of the size difference in the kingdoms they choose to notice, it is still a notice. Whether it goes to war is irrelevant.
A deal is a deal. Abide by it.
Didn't my kingdom get flamed for not sticking in the "no **** notice" term? A kingdom is allowed to agree to whatever terms they so wish, and in so doing, they should be held to those terms. Basic contract law folks!!!!
Whisper this to BB and pyro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akkadian/Taylor
I don't follow these things THAT closely -- Anyway, Fluffy or Panda's, doesn't change my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
When does this stop? I'm honestly curious, would you guy's say the same thing if WsK had a notice deal with the #100 land kingdom of 573 hours and "noticed" said kingdom 10 minutes before CJ could notice them. Would that be OK?
To some degree it is always going to be possible to get around the spirit of these deals to dodge / $#@#play and just generally make things stupid. I'm sure that most of us aren't lawyers and even if we were why would we want to turn this game into some facsimile of real world contract law?
WsK (I'm assuming the guy who posted above speaks for WsK -- if not let me know and I will ignore) even admitted that they are just using us to dodge CJ.
Tell them yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by lampost
Doesn't make a difference they agreed to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealKremlin
To clarify. You would be OK with them noticing the #100 land kingdom with a 500+ hour notice clause? Just because it was "agreed" to. In spite of CLEARLY being against the spirit of the agreement?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetzy
Of course you wouldn't be pleased that's a given. However, the agreement states it so you abide by it. The Spirit as you call it is all but dead now. It's Crazies own diplo that's screwed them on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealKremlin
They agreed to it with the intention of breaking it, so that makes it ok according to flogger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetzy
Fluffy noticed Panda 5 minute before our notice into EOWCF - cuz as the comunitty says it is OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealKremlin
So they dodge us for Panda.
I addmited allready we are using u as dodge..
Why would our dodge be any dif than fluffy vs panda?? and yes at 1st we got angry about it and even noticed fluffy and told them we will hit them into theyr hostile/war... then since the comunity was so friendlly like for fluffy dodging panda into EOWCF we retracted our notice to fluffy and chill out.
This is a Crazies/WSK thread please stay on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Lets keep things on topic :) I think flogger has yet to enter the thread! Although if we want to create a we all love flogger thread I'm sure we can figure something out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
HAHAHAHAHAHA, u should even copy to the post he said this in :P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
So I mean, I think that it's lame for them to notice you guys to try to dodge, but you have to realize that you guys are t10 NW. It's hard to argue that notice of any two t10 kds against eachother is not valid because they're too far apart in size. The size difference in this instance probably doesn't justify cJ attempting to break his word -- there are other things he can (should?) do.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealKremlin
ofc, if all WSK needs to do to get out of this situation is give cJ ~10k acres for an EOA, that's the easiest solution for everyone and a fairly small price. Then they prep for fluffy (who they gave notice to, so they have no notice deal with?) and farm them immediately after fluffy comes oow.
Everyone wins?
Okay...I guess if we're ignoring totally relevant things that pertain to top kingdom diplomacy and dealbreaks and just solely focusing on two kingdoms...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetzy
In the entire history of Utopia, there has never been a president of what is or is not acceptable behavior between the two kingdoms of Crazies and WSKs. Therefore no one has done anything wrong.
I was, until reading this post, leaning in favor of telling cj to wait 72 hrs and notice then since it's ok to notice after notice expires before hostile, but clearly his argument of you breaking the spirit of the deal was validated by your comment. If u have no intention of whatevering them then you yourself admit that the notice is invalid thus giving even more validity to cjs proper notice....great :DQuote:
Originally Posted by cRs
11k acres seems like small amount, seems not smart to not accept it to avoid trouble where an easy solution could be had. Why cause drama when none was needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
Yea, I understand what you are saying Zaups :) And to a degree I agree with you. We ARE in the top 10 (and in the past that might have actually meant something -- there is a 3 man kingdom that just might finish in the top 10 this age...) and that is definitely different than the #100 land kingdom. What I'm trying to get at though is that all of these deals are going to have crazy little loopholes (like I said earlier, most of us aren't contract lawyers). And do we really want to end up taking that to the logical extremes? At some point you ARE going to end up with situations like noticing the #100 land kingdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
In a vacuum I have no issue with WsK noticing us. I mean really all that is is saying that they are canceling our CF. Maybe they think they can take the land of our big guy's and that will push them up to be able to challenge the top 3? Who knows. But that isn't what is happening here. The notice is purely to exploit a loophole in the deal with CJ, that's been admitted. It really probably wouldn't matter to WsK if we were #100 in land.
Also, I realize that this isn't the first time or the last time this will happen. I get that WsK probably view what happened between Panda's and Fluffy as an equivalent situation (we can probably start another 100 post thread arguing that if we wanted) but I hope that we can discuss this situation for it's own merits.
And yes, we have plenty of options as well and I'm sure there will be some curveballs before this is over.
isnt the term notice really short for 'we notice you for war' you've already admitted you arent going to cut nw to war so its not really a notice,
I guess the best solution now is for cj to retract notice. Then reserve notice at wsk notice expiry 1 second before they initiate a Hostile with another kd. ..get real
Kinda funny situation. It's like comedy gold. They exploit a loophole to dodge cj and end up getting their own loophole exploited back by inviting cj to a Hostile at the same time they invite another kd to hostile. I'm just a nib but has any kd ever Dbl hostile themselves before? How much hostile could Chuck Hostile if chuck didn't hostile?
Also will we get a new thread to talk about yet another topic?! What a fun age :D
Zauper nearly, but WsK retracted that notice, so a new would have to be given in that event which is not impossible to do, we are still in the middle of a war thats fairly close though.
As for our notice to Panda, was near the same yes, but we did notice a KD we intended to war, not to dodge WsK it was just the better option of the 2 (can argue if thats a dodge though), I think most would choose the kd they prefer if they have a choice of 2 kds, just like WsK is doing now, they chose to notice someone still in war range (if their intent is to drop NW to be able to war), otherwise if no hostile by 72hrs then crazies is allowed to engage as WsK would have been able to on us if they werent kind enough to retract the notice at the time.
Without actually reading this entire thread I think this situation is too dumb to be seriously discussed.
What is a notice ? Why its timed cancelation of existing cf agreement. To even contemplate of inability to notice somebody because they dont have cf with somebody else or their cf is expiring is just idiotic.
Should I make 2 weeks notice deal next age with somebody just to be able to notice him and have 2 weeks of guaranteed pump time ? Should I be immune to notices beause I dont have cf deal with ghetto #2476 ?
Both crazies and wsk should be ashamed to have included such idiotic clause in their cf agreement.
As far as relative sizes go ... all involved are pretty high on land charts, its all about the land not about fair wars. Nobody should expect to bank safely cause they are not in range to war, and nobody should expect to be left alone cause they cant provide real challange to other kd's in top. Bend over and give free land or get farmed, thats about it, and I honestly dont see why anyone should be upset about that.
Be ashamed goes a bit to far, in the spirit of the game we dont want to catch the other while he is busy getting a war/hostile. Seems solid and honorable to me. The way how they try to misuse this agreement now is disgracefull in my opinion. But ok, tells a lot about hem.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
I totally agree with you, however on the pretty same issue the whole comunity went us: next time do ur deals better.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
between us and our notice target is 50k acres dif, between us and crazye is 40k acres dif.. so what makes this any dif? last time we went notice block into EOWCF we where 126k and our target was 115k...
they agreed on a deal and now they dont wanna stick to it.. how is that not a deal break?
and to tell u the truth we tryed for few days to extend this CF.. but all we got was crazy (theyr name is right :P) conspiration theory that we will farm fluffy then panda then them :) for real.. how many of u do u see this possible?! :P - are we that good but we didnt saw it? :)
PS: sry for those guys from CJ kd who I talked in public whatsaapchat, I really enjoyed the time with u :P despite all this sh^t :)
Haha, yeah. You guys are still a nice bunch of people. But you should just have taken the 11k (=8.5% of your total acres) acres deal. Was truly a very great deal and would have stopped all this nonsens. But i guess this is also part of uto :).Quote:
Originally Posted by cRs
Yep, pretty much exactly how I feel. If WsK was just trying to take our land that would be fine, but that's not what is happening here.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
screw the acres its not about them... we just dint wanted to give any free acres at this time, told all of u that and explained why ;) then I got the CJ conspiracy and understood why those acres was so important to u :P but we still stick to our decision.. no free acres at this time and we will dodge u till we think its right if u dont wanna negociate a deal - u wanna impose a dealQuote:
Originally Posted by scheffie
It's not fine. #noacres4wsk. I stated this in diplo. I assured them it would be mutual destruction. My goals this age are complete. I got bigger than last age. Now we destroy.
Gl & hf
gl hf too crystal ;) what makes u think we have better goals this age? :)
I don't really care what your goals are. I'm smarter. ;)
Somehow I don't think boasting about dodging is helping your cause
The facts are facts 007.. they agreed on a term, now they dont like that term and wanna break it. And we have solid proof for everything that was posted from our side here.
Not going to read every post.
If WSK's CF with CP allows them to notice CP, how is that invalid?
Breaking a CF doesn't have to mean war is coming, it means, our CF is up and I want your acres, and I think I'm in a position to take them.
It gives CP the opportunity to pepper their angus, find a conflict elsewhere before notice is up, or diplo out of it.
--
But this then gets into the oft repeated scenario.
WSK notices CP
WSK attacks CP
CP doesn't retal.
How long is WSK allowed to farm CP?
The one way hostile isn't going to be allowed to last forever.
As soon as it ends, CJ can 48 hour notice WSK, at which point WSK is going to be out of gold, and ill-prepared for a fight.
WSK is surely going to get farmed in that situation, possibly worse than if they just fight CJ straight-up.
--
If I'm CP, I let the WSK thing play out, op WSKs gold supplies away, let WSK get crushed by CJ, and then take my land back by vulturing WSK after CJ is done with them.
If I'm CJ, WSK taking land from CP just means WSK has more land for me to take, so I let that play out too.
--
oo missed u meep.. wonder when u will come out ;) not sure if ur post is against us or not but u know what they say: bad advertisement is allways better than no adv. :)
ur still up for a hunting next age? :)
My post is neutral as always, it just doesn't end well for you because you're not in a position to come out ahead here whether they honor their deal or not :pQuote:
Originally Posted by cRs
Good morning!
First and foremost, this won't meet flogger's #3paragraphs forum post requirements. So please go easy on me.
There's a total of 2 cfs that cRAZiEs did this age that wasn't done by me, and this was during the period where I had a weekend holiday trip to Penang. With that being said, we will still stick to the gist and spirit of those 2 deals that we made. I consider myself having 3 vice leaders, and they are daddio, Steve and heiney respectively.
This is my first time seeing those logs as daddio is on a holiday, but he did warn me that he might have unknowingly agreed to a no notice into a notice cf, and that's cause he wasn't paying attention and believes in the spirit of all deals.
I have spoken at lengths with Stefan & crs over the past few days, and understand their frustrations of the spot which they are in now. It is difficult for a top warring tier leader to transit to whoring tier, and manuevere around cfs and position themselves well. I've been there done that with the old Pyros and there were numerous times we had to give acres4cf when we got outmaneuvered and owned. Most notably 25%(or was it 20%?) of our acres to cr 5 ages back (first age in whoring) when we got owned in hostile cause we totally sucked in whoring wars then. Pyro could have threatened to farm out to pew pew then etc, but didn't do so.
Naturally, its frustrating to be in crs/Stefan spot prior to this incident. I reassured them that I know how it feels and asked them for their plans. I don't totally understand their rest of the age plans (answers varies) but the gist is that they would want to war fluffy after fluffy-pandas, and perhaps pandas after that.
I looked at charts and did some calculations, and offered them to give 11.5k acres (8.4%) for an eoacf. This drops them to ~126k acres which still gives them a prime position to war fluffy. And they don't have to think about crazies for the rest of the age.
I explained that this is a very cheap/reasonable deal for a whoring kingdom to a whoring kingdom eoacf, and I rebutted their points that their kingdom would be demoralised and feels as if the age has ended if they were to give acres.. Well, they are still able to get very good wars vs fluffy and pandas.
There are some external parties here who have mentioned that 11.5k acres is very cheap/reasonable, and I'm even surprised zauper posted that! (Hah! I know where you play and which province! Inbox mails updates province location after you change kd!)
If I were to be super unreasonable and say demand 25% acres, no eoacf, no more growth bla bla. Sure. By all means, exploit a loophole and dodge us. Crs has even mentioned a few posts earlier that was his intent.. But my cf request isn't anywhere close to those demands.
If we really want to be tricky and dodgy, I believe I could easily go up to Chrystal/krelim and ask him to notice some other kingdom with a 24/48hrs notice now. That makes this wsk notice invalid, and I can just notice etc etc .
If wsk wants to be tricky and not engage Chrystal/krelim, they can just always keep on renoticing or notice some random coordinated kingdom 1000hrs notice before this notice with Chrystal kd ends.
Do we want to encourage all of those plays listed in the above two paragrahs for the whoring tier in this era of Utopia?
As it stands currently, crazies 48hrs notice on wsk still carries on. I've not been convinced yet to pull it back, and will accept any consequences. I'm fine with doing diplo with wsk/others in the mean time.
To crs/Stefan : we can always talk if needed :)
To The expendibles/godly/mango: I have spoken to great lengths to blizz about this situation, and I would say we are both very frank and honest with our views on this situation/age ending. I'm fine with sharing the logs of our convo with any of you, just gotta check on blizz's side. We both know that the only way crazies will ever catch up to you guys is cRAZiEs getting acres from kingdoms you have committed to eoacfs. There's no hiding that. It is natural in utopia politics/strategy/diplomacy for you to not encourage that to happen, and that's Utopia. And my job is to convince them otherwise.. I'm sure you have done your calculations 11.5k acres is nothing compared to your orcs low nw whorability.. It only requires you to put in more efforts to land crown. I'm sure we both calculated that the chances of acres from pandas2crazies is pretty low.
I'm also glad to find out that both our kingdoms have turned down farm war requests this age thus far.
You didn't even respond to meep, why you gotta leave me out :(Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOne
If we weren't open for talk... then excuse me, u want a electronic parrot to talk to ur head 24/7???Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOne
but all ur reply was the same: Im not a bluffer, I dont wanna trick you, dont trust the others.. trust me.. I leaded pyro from war to whore.. I am the best.. gimme acres and trust me its the best for you.
P.S: and again as a reminder.. all we say here have solid whatsaap proof, no exageration ;)
annyway Im off to sleep, gn
P.S2: and I really enjoy what u did here: "I'm also glad to find out that both our kingdoms have turned down farm war requests this age thus far." annother guru phrase with twisted reasons ;)