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Elf definitely caused more damage this age to attackers. Honestly opting other tms just steals honor and doesn't win wars. I love the changes but elfs are way to weak to even be considered if the changes stand.only thing they could run as is a rogue or a merchant.
I have played an Elf this age and last age too, no real difference in play style for me and I find that im playing better this age with the current ages bonuses and doing much much more damage than I was compared to last age (I have an a/t/m play style)
I would put it more say a offensive faerie than a halfling but the problem is that thieves and mages have a certain play style, which 99% of the time does not include attacking which Elves were built for. And even worse is that most kingdoms do not think in terms of dual but single purpose viewpoints.
But yea, an all Elf kingdom this age would had been perfect assuming the players has at least played an Elf at least once though an entire age. But sadly the changes isn't here to last past this age.
Also regardless of the changes of next age, more than likely we will not get back that -x troop losses which I find some people are too reliant on last age, that which served as too big of handicap now that we dont have it anymore
Things like -20% Sci, -20% Gains seem really harsh.
Seconded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
Why are people talking about avians being bound to get land fat? Imho you aren't using the avian right if you think it will just get land fat.
Agree with what many are saying about tweaking the elves and halfers... especially Elves. Something if missing for them to be pure t/ms. And the leet value is too high to go pure attacker, making them overall kind of a weak hybrid race...
I feel like attackers in general are too pumped and t/ms in general are too nerfed. Something to look into.
Was hoping to see more Elf Hybrids next round, sadly that wont happen it seems
It's fine if Elf can't be a pure TM. But as you note, they also can't really pull of a hybrid role either. They're just kind of middling for any purpose.
If you cant take down the enemy t/m you cant win a war. Purely oping attackers is 100% going to lose you wars against good kds.Quote:
Originally Posted by handofthrawn
No real diversity. The game is a slow game and tanking is king. Just another age of everyone playing Dwarf Sage - really. Diversity is always going to happen in the ghetto, but it would nice if things were a little more balanced in top tier. Honestly just get rid of Sage personality, and the game is going to get fun.
Why stop a 20 age tradition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xerxes
The War Hero
Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks
Is this the same conversion mechanics that undead had?
Edit:
Replace sage with artisan :D
Thats what massacres are for and there is nothing better then massing a faery. Sadly elfs look to be beyond weak this next age. Halflings and faerys are much stronger then elfs with these changes. But I like the changes and should be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
I think I have to agree with others. It's fine if elf isn't the greatest TM but restore their ability to effectively hybrid or it just won't be viable. Hopefully they will read these forums and give the Elves a little bit of love.
Each Race seems to have something they do well that the others don't really share. Elves don't appear to be better at anything over Halflings and Faeries.
You aren't massacring a t/m enough pre war to to truely disable them, 1-2 hits doesnt magically open them up to FB's and stoping NS/AW/Prop. Trying to massacre mid war is a death wish unless you have already won, in which case i repeat you arent winning if u cant down an enemy t/m. Either you win the core war so hard u can conquest/trad march wave them down or you have to be able to op enemy t/m's.Quote:
Originally Posted by handofthrawn
Its why puting +damage on feary and splitting the +tpa/wpa between elf/halfer makes wars somewhat more even. This age we had wars basically come down to the fact that our faeries>>their faeries nothing more nothing less and thats meh/boring at best.
Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that haha. There are different ways to play this game and we obviously play different which is fine. I aim for wars not to last past min time. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
where as i aim to win and thus my average war lasts between 5 to 7 daysQuote:
Originally Posted by handofthrawn
Give elf fanaticism and bloodlust and quick feet!
and revive dead troops on all attacks..Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
Ha, actually adding those spells and giving a defensive casualty bonus would make elf a sexilicious hybrid.
At absolute maximum there's 4000 players left, we're pretty much all fanatics at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfghy
Respectfully disagree. Inactivity is rampant and kingdoms seem frozen in their place in certain areas. Two different problems, but let's look at a few.
Top Diplo is it's Own Undoing: I'm sure the dirty secret is nobody really wants to do anything. For the sake of gameplay you guys should jettison the meta enabling diplo.
1- I'm reading that ToG and sage is overpowered. That's because you guys create a circle of protection to pump with impunity. That's why it sucks. If you were keeping each other in check you wouldn't see sage run away from the rest. It's not the mechanics, it's you. Kick each others asses and see how cool sage is now. Yeah I ran one this age and I got acres, but there was nothing outstanding going on because my enemies were using learns. You can't let a sage pump. That conventional wisdom AND should supersede in diplo.
2- Holding on to what little you got is silly to. There once was a kingdom that's use to charting, but this age not so much. So with that lost you think they move toward another way to have fun? No. They're stuck in the unified mentality you get in organized kingdoms. It's like holding your pee while you wait in line at the bank. Just go pee, your not winning the queue.
3- The kingdom ideal that doesn't serve the individual is nothing more than a robot. I don't mean in a greedy way, I mean in a gameplay way. This late the kingdoms that have guys going asleep at the wheel should run and gun. Everybody is dragging inactives. People are afraid to get in a war because they might lose...and they just sit there waiting to sit around next age. Grow in pioneering and get out there and do something. EoA war is a great primer for learning to fight anybody, anywhere, anytime.
The mechanics are fine. It's the player base. Stop kissing your life away with CF. It's a game; you're welcome to challenge yourself and fight out of your mind. You see, to me the lower player base is a distilling of a certain type. We need you to be individuals. I could play aggressive at this point to help revive you. Generally I play very holistically because I empathize with the ambitious. I don't need it anymore, but if you need a boost I can do that to.
I like avian. - Human seems weird. Not bad, just weird. - Dwarves build time should be min 12 in fort.
First I thought I would ask if the racial spells swapped between Elf and Halfling are intended? One of the Elf racial spells is invisibility and one of the Halfling racial spells is Mages Fury?!?!
Secondly, why give Halflings +1 offspec then take away hospitals? If you are trying to promote Halfling attacker, hospitals would be potentially useful, no? Another thought that went through my head would be to remove +1 offspec and make elites 5/4.
As for Humans, what are you devs trying to do with Human attackers? Strong attacks with weak rewards? When I look back at what humans have had to offer with racial spells (ToG) and recurring theme of racial bonuses, I see a wealthy attacker race with strong science. So how about this for Humans...
Humans
+30% income science effectiveness
+10% battle gains
Every 3 acres generates 1 book of science
+10% military costs (wages / draft / maintenance)
Spellbook: Fountain of Knowledge, Quick Feet
Elite: 6/3, 750gc, 5.75NW
My reasoning is that these bonuses would give the potential for humans to be wealthy via strong income science but their greed would also have a negative effect of increasing their military costs (greedy humans).
As promised, here's my take
Key points I'd like to bring up
People saying Avian is too powerful
People saying Elf is too weak
Discussions regarding ToG/Sage
Avian: Immune to Ambush is a very interesting bonus. This is most probably why people are saying it's too strong. I personally like that and don't feel that Avian are OP at all with it. That said, if devs read into the amount of comments about "strong avian" -- PLEASE don't just remove immunity to ambush, but add something in it's place. Because Avian w/o that and nothing to make up for it, is INSANELY weak.
If you remove the ambush immunity, give them back the -% Training/Construction Time. Please.
Dwarf: Seems people are comfortable with dwarf
Elf: Sigh...ok, I will have to chime in with Mage's Fury/Invisibility. Mage's Fury should stay with Elf. Invisibility should stay with Halfling. IF not those races, then they should go to the personalities Mystic and Rogue. It just makes way more sense on those personalities anyway. Besides that...Elves are just like they were 2 ages ago except weaker due to no defensive loss bonus. Back then...they were a little on the strong side. Which is likely what is making people throw a fit about them. I agree that they could use another bonus...but something unique. They could also use a negative.
Neg: -5% Population or -25% BR
Pos: +100% Effectiveness of one of the following buildings: Watch Towers, Guard Stations, Hospitals, or Towers
Faery: Pretty solid. Losing ToG and such makes them much harder to play! I played Faery first time this age and ToG was almost a necessity. So w/o it, it will be much more difficult for them. But props to the players who DO manage to make it work w/o going Merchant.
Halflings: No Hospitals is ROUGH. This makes them even MORE vulnerable as rogues and practically removes their usefulness as Hybrids. Maybe it's just me...but I think they will have a much harder time getting UB w/o being considerably larger, which is fine if intended...but that means ops are going to be suffering from NW difference. I feel that they are actually on the weak to very weak side despite the +50% TPA. At the very least, give them back Town Watch (and as previously noted in the Elf section, Invisibility switch for MF). That said, considering the other changes...I think this is quite balanced.
Humans: I actually really like this change. I'd probably give them one more small bonus. Something like: +100% Effectiveness of Schools or -20% Training Costs/Wages
Orc: Same as dwarf. -20% Science Effectiveness sucks...but they were such a powerhouse this age and needed a tiny bit of a nerf. I would also remove CS from them. That's just too much.
Undead: Good to Go.
Merchant: Given that they are now the ONLY possible route to ToG. I think this is a great personality that is very competitive with the others
Sage: Ok...so lot of talk about Sage being OP and needing to be removed...I agree +40% Sci Effect is gnarly. But that's ALL they have. It does nothing if you can't pump your science. It's great for numbers, but there are definite ways to deal with them. IF you decide to nerf that bonus, please give them science protection or a 2x bonus to Schools or something
Rogue: Give Rogue Invisibility and Halflings Vermin. Otherwise, perfect.
Mystic: Give Mystic Mage's Fury and Elves Chastity. Otherwise, perfect.
Warrior: That's pretty strong! But I like it that way.
Tactician: Um...remove CS as a racial spell and this personality is decently viable. Orcs shouldn't have CS. That's just weird.
Cleric: Still pretty strong. But fortunately -mil losses were removed from the races (except Undead) so nothing stacks with it really. Halflings are almost forced to choose this option if they want to consider playing hybrid.
War Hero: Um...they need something. I would take -50% Honor Loss over +100% Honor Effect. But I doubt that will happen...so what about some kind of bonus to population? +10% Population or +50% Population Science Effectiveness. They are heroes and the peasants flock to them and work harder for them. Or a bonus to peasant efficiency however that works?
Since warhero is an attacker personality and attackers generally don't use ospecs (cept maybe for halflling if they get to keep +1 on their ospecs), that converting troops perks is pretty pointless. Better make it so they can use creds for elites, like avian used to have.
I laughed everytime I saw or warred a halfling war hero this age lol. What a horrible idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by fuge
Agreed but so is only basic thievery ops.... I would rather have the science negative than the Thief negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
It would be nice for WH to have a built in Propaganda op whenever they attacked.
I think a good elf buff would be +100% tower effectiveness or +100% Watchtower effectiveness. As elf in war, you'd want to run high numbers of these two. With such a big effectiveness bonus you'd free up at least 10% buildspace. Also they should swap invisibility for either mage fury or Quick feet. That way they can more effectively hybrid. I don't see anyone pick elf with these proposed changes as pure T/M.
Smerc, I don't know that the sense here is that Avian are TOO strong, just that they ARE strong. And there's some disagreement even there.
I'll keep riding the Elf train. Lower birth rate would make sense if Elves are immortal and take their damn time having chitlins. Higher WT or Towers effectiveness is a cool idea; or have land produce runes in the same way that it produces science for human? The thematic idea here being that Elves draw their magic from the land, etc. Another thematic idea is that Elves are martial sorcerers, so they should have martial spells like Bloodlust, Quick Feet, Fanaticism.
The Invisibility/Mage's Fury swaperoo was I think supposed to allow those races to offset the other's advantages. It kind of makes sense, but I don't think Invisibility on an Elf is going to make a big enough difference, and MF on the Faery makes that arguably the better mage choice.
Elves need a bit of a buff. I'm glad they got their WPA mod back, but losing Mage's Fury puts Faeries way too close to them. The mana used to cast it is more than offset by the mana bonus they get, and the stealth + damage/duration bonuses + other spells (GP/CS/Fountain) absolutely blow away the cheaper defense.
Elves could use one (or more) of the following:
+40% or even 50% WPA
Clear Sight
Beefier military (6/4 or 5/5 elites or a 0/6 spec. WPA can actually go down with the 0/6 spec if needed)
I want to say Meteor Showers as a racial for a larger choice of personalities but then fae get it too >.<
Some kind of rune generation bonus
Move the duration bonus back and raise it to 30% (let fae keep the other two)
Edit: Missed humans (and thus faeries) losing ToG. The other spells are still much better than what Elf gets for bonuses.
CS on Elf would be pretty swell, not gonna lie.
I would prefer a beefier military but I'm struggling to come up with a way to make that happen without breaking things. 5/5 Elites might be an option but that kind of undermines their def spec. 6/4 elites would do it (still have reason to use specs) but that might make them overpowered.
Mana bonus in war?
Reduced thief loss passive?
Spellbook: CS, Fanaticism, QF?
Better WPA bonus?
WT effectiveness bonus?
And any reason why Ork is getting Nerfed to very big -20% sci eff. Only OP attacker race was Human. Ork was ok. Hard hitter yes, but also very easy to op and take down. So i don't see any reason nerfing ork.
Your not tired of fighting orcs. I know I am lol. Nerf them bad please haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
Avian: Don't Touch; I think I mentioned last age it should be +50% BR good to see it this time around
Dwarf: Still the best Tank, now the best Pump (except for Merchant); This is THE Sage Race now that ToG has been eliminated (No more Human and Faery Sage); I dunno might wanna go 6/2 on these beasts, ROFL!
Elf: +30% WPA, +10% TPA, Cheap Defense
Halfling: +20% WPA, +50% TPA, Higher Population, Cheap Thieves, Less Defense
Faery: +20% WPA, +10% TPA, +20% Damage, +1 mana/stealth
Elf's are pure Mage and can Torture a Faery and Halfling. Mage Fury is always going to be up and so elf magic bonus x = 1.3/.8 = 62.5% WPA. Everything seems very balanced here. An Elf mage army could possibly Nightmare a T/M to be chained down. Very well balanced, don't Touch!
Orcs and Humans: Haha, you always troll, -20% is your fudged number to what it is really going to be. -10% Each is fine. -15% if you were actually serious about -20%, lol.
Undead: Don't Touch
Warrior: I have a little problem with how you only get a bonus in war. I think +20% is good, but it should be +10% OME Hostile, +20% OME War.
War Hero: Spec to Elites mechanic removed. Add +100% Province War Win Bonus.
Sage: Reduce to +20% Science Effectiveness; Fountain of Knowledge; Amnesia; .5 BPA per tick.
from warring kd pov:
orcs and ud's are obvious tier one attacker picks
avian is kinda meh, they can hit fast but thats about it, it does allow for some creative plays but overall they lack military power and stamina to be used in conservative warring setups.
dorfs are solid, flexible builds, nice balance of economy/military power, cleric nerf benefits them indirectly. as allways 30% be is priceless, moreso now with tog removal. nw increase on elite is pretty hefty. Dorf sage is a thing again.
Humans are really bad.
elves are weak, removal of dmg mods/extra mana removed one thing they were good at this age: doing serious dmg to easy targets. They do have some niche roles they can fill but even those are twarted by halflings and rogues in general.
halfer is back, bigtime. Removal of tpa bonus from fae and giving halfer 50% tpa half rogues are undisputed king of thievery again. Number of halfer rogues will be cornerstone of every competitive warring setup. Work great as counterplay to faes and as landtraps in top nw tier of KD. Excellent ub's.
Faes are ... different. Most wars in warring tier came down to who can establish safe faes and than tog its way to victory. Every war if prolonged long enough could be won with economy and this was role faes excelled at. That is gone now. Faes still make decent rogues and best mystics so they will have their place, but they are no longer center point of every conflict. This is good for the game imo.
as far as personalities go i'd say things are pretty balanced. WH is useless and tact is bad. Others have their standard role and synergy with allways same races and do what they are suposed to. Sage might be doing its thing a tad too well tho.
Overall i'd say removing tog from faes will be a huge change to warring kd's. Core's economy is actually going to be important and win conditions for 90% wars will change, this will also shift some focus from outlasting to outtraining. I look forward to this enviroment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zendor
CS on Elf would NOT be pretty swell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
CS/RM/ToG/QF/Fanaticism/Greater Protection/Town Watch/FoK/Mage's Fury/Invisibility, etc... -- should all be personality spells. Put the self-spells in the personalities section and the offensive spells (besides MS which goes to Mystic) as racial spells. All problems solved FOREVER.
Some times success trumps damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
As far as the changes go, I actually kind of like them. Only suggestions I'd make are:
1) Lower Elf Elite NW a little OR give them a small buff
2) Humans seemed rather OP this age (first age back in While), and I assume the +20% ME is to help offset the -20% gains (seeing as you can go warrior and stack it). But 20% seems harsh. Perhaps reduce both ME and -gains to 15% ?
3) As someone mentioned, as an attacker you run a full elite army. So the War Hero bonus of conversion is used at a very minimum. I enjoy the idea of allowing WH to use spec credits towards elites.
It's cause of cleric.
And i'm more tired of overgrown Humans and in previous ages it was dorf. And UD. Ork is fine, easy to take down.
Humans, dwarfs, undeads, orcs; it doesnt matter. All of those are easy to take out. NS before a chain, cast pitfalls and go for it. I'm just sick of all the unbreakable t/m's with elite defense that can't even be opped away.
Also, will there be any bug fixes? That's the change I'm mostly waiting for.
Yes but ork is easiet to take down from bunch. And human was hardest with def losses bonus. Don't allow TMs to go UB, then you'll be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spons