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1) was this war set up by diamonds?
1a) if not, pay attention to who farms his acres
2) if the pms were sent after war started it doesn't strike me as fake. Not wholly legitimate maybe since the monarch of 1:9 doesn't seem to have been willing to give his KD a chance at the win though.
3) see 1a again.
Well. I certainly wasn't expecting all this when i logged on earlier today. It's much more entertaining to watch when this stuff happens to other kingdoms :/
What about the rest of his kingdom? I've played with diamond for a few ages now, and I'm inclined to believe him when he tells me it wasn't a fake war. No disrespect meant to you JeffT, but if proof does exist, it should be easy enough to post it and let the rest of 6:2 know what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffT
Ive learned from past experience...dont argue with mods...you get banned lol
umajon, so then this forum is more like a dictatorship where people don't have freedom of speech?
I am not in 1:9
Sorry then, assumed you were.
I don't appreciate this comment. Despite what the happenstance of this case is, there are many KDs that fit none of what you just described and frankly shows you don't know what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldhearted
“His jest shall savour but a shallow wit, when thousands more weep than did laugh it.”
-DM <3
Seeing they set up fake wars too now, they have eachother to war to end up high in the charts. Pretty sure they now learned to not use the in-game mail to set up their fake wars, so it may get harder to stop that in the future. But at least now it's clear how aod kd's get their war points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldhearted
Users are free to dispute things with administration so long as they remain civil and admin is willing to discuss it publicly.Quote:
Originally Posted by umajon911
Never said I didnt deserve my ban lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Palem
If you agree to a predetermined outcome (even though) after the war has started, that's still a fake war. How hard is it to understand that ?
Really Uhm hoi? </3Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhm hoi
http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...8-NTSH-v-NOOBS
-DM <3
History always has a way of repeating itself from time to time.
I don't try to come off mean but I am just honest without much of a filter. I appreciate honesty and respect it, even if I don't agree with what people are doing. Aka Bart. But AOD entire we are a defensive alliance is just pure bs. On top of that you guys just randomly let kingdoms in. So you are bound to bring in cheats, bullies and scumbags. Who now have even more power because your average ghetto will be scared of AOD, because it's a alliance. I am just saying your lying and probably even lying to yourself by saying it's a defensive only alliance. Anyways I don't really care I am off to have a good weekend. Just saying warring tier doesn't need or want a garbage alliances ruining our fun of good clean wars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldhearted
https://media.giphy.com/media/vz7AysMjcNGDe/giphy.gif
-DM <3
Lets be honest, the moment 1:9 offered a win in exchange for helping out with removal of provs, any response other than an outright "no" was going to be taken as complicity in a fake war, regardless of 6:2's actual intentions during or after the war. Even saying they wouldn't consider helping until after the war was over could be taken as constituting agreement to helping in exchange for a win, even if Diamonds didn't want to accept the offer of a win but was just happy to get free acres after the war.
It's a tough call for the devs on this one. I'm not saying Diamonds is innocent or guilty. It could go either way depending on what we haven't been told. But I can see possible circumstances in which Diamonds thought he was turning down the free win and just accepting free acres after the war regardless of the war's outcome, however likely or unlikely those circumstances might be.
Just to clarify, because you know there's always something to learn and improve on, even in a bad situation. But the precise boundaries of "Fake Wars" are always something that could use clarification, and a case study like this would be great to give some clarity on a subject on which many of us don't have much of a window or insight into the judgment calls made.
For example, we all know the classic, agreeing to stop fighting before end of war, intentionally agreeing to lose a war, or agreeing to a farm out are definite signatures of a classic fake war.
However, it was useful for me to look at old forum threads to find out more about the grey areas and the boundaries, for example I found out after reading one case that agreeing to leave some provs out of a war entirely is not allowed - though of course makes sense in retrospect as that can be used to build up cows. However, that, on the other hand could be very close to (what I think is generally accepted), agreeing on certain no-go actions, like no Prop/AW on our mystics, or no PKs, or no Massacres - which strategically could take some provs out of the threat zone in a war (though correct me if I'm wrong Devs!)
I think this war was a grey zone, if the communications happened after the war began.
I mean it's a sliding scale, if a monarch says 'I'll surrender if we lose another 2,000 acres" that could be a "farm out" or it could just be acknowledging that, oh we're still even in acres, I'm not surrendering because I don't think we're behind until we lose at least another 2,000 acres".
Or, for long wars where both sides are dug in and monarchs are trying to negotiate an end to the war, I don't think things like
"I'll surrender at min time/or in 24 hours, but could you:
(a) focus on Attackers X, Y, Z because they're too big and I don't want to have to deal with attackers twice as big as our T/Ms after the war, or
(b) not PK my deep-chained 50 acre provinces and just max gain, or
(c) can you hold off on AWing my mystics so that we don't need two weeks to recover"
(as long as the agreement isn't to not hit certain provs entirely, but to shift focus, or to let someone know you're withdrawing so they can "max gain" on your oversized provinces - to me also doesn't have the hallmarks have a fake war. And asking someone to help focus on some problem provinces before you surrender is kind of in that same grey area for me too.
Right now, this deletion of Diamonds has a major chilling effect on all communication and negotiations during a war between monarchs as the boundaries aren't clear what could be deemed a fake war or not.
Unless the rule is simply - any communications regarding any change in focus of attention (even without excluding any provinces from danger entirely) during or before a war are forbidden.
In which case things like no-pk agreements, or no massacre/no abduct agreements which I see pretty often may be suspect as well.
I'll appreciate some clarification if anyone has the time.
I am not in any of these KDs so speculation is all I have.
This specs to be more...
"We have no chance to win but could you hit our inactives more?"
Even so, the losing King could have been a liar trying to clear out users in opposition to him.
I do wonder if the offending remarks were in private MAIL or WarForum for all to see. If I were a mod that transparency or secret communication would matter.
I see nothing wrong with wanting help on useless provs.
I do understand now that matters not, targeting is considered bad from Mods view.
I suppose I am saying I see both realities. A mods work can be frackin hard.
This is an awesome thread. Maybe better terminology would be arranged war.
Based on what I have read here - no fake war.
Clear fake war, no doubt about it.
it is all about sniffing out what is shady about a deal and stay away from those wars, plenty of shady wars are still going on if you ask me, hardly any got actioned.
Most of the things I've seen was someone probably trying to trick me into a bad war, like last age where someone suggested a war and that we hit each others inactives after (mass message to the kingdom I started in, not the one I got moved to by request) or when someone suggest a war and that they will have a few provinces in vm to make it happen. Neither probably did anything that could be considdered offering fw, still if they have to go to such lengths to pretend that you'll get an even match when logic tells you that it is not then stay away.
If there is no possible decent match arround don't war until there is, and think twice before accepting a blank war offer.
Aint that the damn truth....Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldhearted
Not really my lane, but reading everything and looking at the news it does seem a bit fake. We just left a war, and we did just a bit over min time.. maybe 52 hours or something like that. We have almost double the amount of hits on each other and way deeper chains. No one hits every damn province like 2 or 3 times and chain provinces only 10 times. Looks like people were going max gains all war, sure ghettos might do that, but if we are talking about "organized alliances" how would something like that occur? Either A. your alliance is just terrible. B. your alliance doesn't know how to war. C. Both A and B. D. Its a fake war and both A and B are true as well. As for attacking Bart, I have been playing for a long time off and on since the start. Been back full time for about 9 ages I think maybe more. Only had a few interacts with him, he seemed polite and he responded to my in game messages and usually accepted CFs in a quick manner. I can say less for the bulk of monarchs in this game that I have interacted with. No one writes people, if i get war offers just have a title of war and a subject of interested? Seriously? This is monarchy these days? As for alliances, guess no one played back when REAL ALLIANCES were a thing. I was a monarch in Battle Field for ages and ages, won a lot of wars. Never joined an Alliance but fought them all the time. Sucked when they would have 3 outside kingdoms raze into war if their buddy was losing. AOD is no real alliance, its just a tag and people that want to be part of something. As a community we need to foster better habits, better players and police one another or else we will keep getting BS like this popping up. Way to go Jeff and David on fixing this stuff, game has gotten better with every age since they bought it. Anyways, those are my thoughts.
Who wars with all those lists of things not allowed and why ? Stop making deals that restrict game play and you won’t have to worry about what isn’t allowed
We obviously don't have the information that the admins do so it seems pointless speculating on whether it is or isn't a fake war.
However I agree with changeling post #58 that there are some grey areas where, as someone who is generally involved in leadership, I would welcome clarification. The biggest one for me is probably whether it's permissible to do things to try to limit long term damage to the other KD. For example, a few ages ago a KD we waved said they would war us if we agreed to various conditions. Things like no dragons which AFAIK are fine. However the one I wondered about in hindsight was that they wanted us to agree not to hit provs who were chained below a certain size (~100-200 acres i think). I said obviously if the prov in question continues participating in the war, we are not going to agree not to hit them as that would be ridiculous but if, after already being chained a particular prov is no longer participating in the war, then we wouldn't continue hitting them just for the sake of trying to kill them.
IMHO that's very different from excluding a prov from the war to begin with given it only happens after the prov is already badly damaged, and it doesn't relate to any particular prov but rather whichever happens to end up in that situation. But I don't know whether the devs see it as acceptable or not.
Let me be as clear as possible:Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamonds
It does not matter whether you agreed 10 minutes before the war was declared or 10 minutes after the war was declared. I'm not going to bother checking server logs, because frankly it doesn't change the result for you. You aren't going to have a full 48 hour war with an agreed outcome and claim it's real. Everyone can see from my post when you agreed - the same hour war began. This is not a grey area. This is an explicit agreement for one kingdom to surrender to another, after the full duration of war, in exchange for assistance.
@Changeling:
The rules around fake war need to be somewhat vague because otherwise the playerbase will attempt to circumvent. If you have a specific question about a deal you are working on, feel free to email support and we will let you know.
Fair point about people circumventing. The prior approval option is great - thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffT
JeffT,
I am not going to keep arguing with you. You quickly jumped to a decision without taking the correct steps for investigating everything. Its fine, I understand that the mods won't reinstate the province because then it would prove that you did mess up.
I think for next time, you should consult the people that are involved before deleting them, give them a chance to show you proof and plead their case.
Also, I think the whole fake war rule needs to be revised and clarified better then how it currently is stated.
How can you tell the length of their investigation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamonds
Why should they consult the people that are in question for breaking the rules? Do you consult the criminals in court when they are up to be judged? Stupid. They found evidence enough that warranted action and thats it, you cant fast talk your way out of things.
Most people seem fine with it, since most people dont get deleted for fake warring.
I think taking a hardline on fw is needed these days. Let the only communication with your opponent be "let's waaaaar!!" and their won't be any issues. No special parameters of "no dragons" or 'no aw" or " don't hit faeries" . No discussion that doesn't include talking about how you are going to whoop dat ass. No chance of being actioned for fw. Easy eh? You're welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamonds
Everyone has excuses for why they did or didn't cheat. All real or imagined, can you imagine the time drain on admins? Lol. Take this as a learning experience.
Recommending you relax, Diamonds.
You have more responsibilities than getting tough with developers. When you have the signature you have....
Your intuitive nature will complete that sentence.
There have been some wierd changes of power in the old kingdoms, or behaviors I've noted are different. I don't think it's a conspiracy, but that of misguided ambition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madchess
I've noted some started bashing smaller kingdoms relentlessly, freak out when they're waved, invoke "better" strategy that results in self mutilation. I don't like to lead but might consider the task if this disintegration continues.
This is fake news. If you fix the war mechanic (and mostly the bonuses) you won't have "fake" wars.
Oh man, how did I miss this thread. Diamond getting deleted for fake warring...not surprised!
Criminals are allowed to take the stand on their own behalf in a court of law, however they are then subject to cross examination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
haha Swagger, I was wondering when you would show up..
Now that I am more sober, I'd like to take the time to explain something to all the very opinionated yet clearly uninformed posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by bdbcoyote
You want to target the accused, go right ahead. I am clearly not educated enough in the events to make a real assessment, and leave that to the Lords to decide. My issue is the clear and present BS that is nothing more than biased, misinformation and theorycraft about what AoD is.
The only thing that everyone seems to have correct here is that it's an alliance. Outside that, you're all just basing and spreading garbo based off one incident from one KD our your own assumptions.
I am part of AoD. I gladly admit it; and I chat with these people on a daily basis. We are a few strong warring KDs mixed in with small up and comers and a few micros. We share laughs, tips, advice to newer players, and war stories. We do let anyone join, whether you're a KD of 25 or a KD of 6, we also have many non-alliance members in our Slack channel, anyone is welcome as long as transparency is there. If you wish, PM me an email and ill invite you myself so you can see what I mean.
Being a member for multiple ages, I have yet to come across the cheaters and bullies that have been presumed to grace us with their presence. We work hard to find KDs for provinces wishing to move to a more active KD, and we negotiate mergers for micros so they can better compete in the war tier or whatever their goal is.
Our mandate is to make the game better for all our members and non members
Super scary stuff right?
Point is we are not the sum of this one, stupid event that clearly a few people are putting on all of us. I have a very competitive spirit, and good, clean, and perpetual war all age is how I get my kicks. I respect my opponents and they tend to respect me for it. Basically, anyone badmouthing AoD because of this incident is badmouthing me, and quite a few other individuals who are nothing but nice, caring, and honourable people who like to help, guide, and enjoy the game together.
You're folie a plusieurs makes me sick tbh, I hope in the future you learn to conduct yourselves accordingly and curb your assumptions, because half this thread is basically a witch hunt without any facts to back up the claims.
-DM <3
No i think most of the assumptions people are making are because of the history of AOD ,Diamonds history of operating and getting into stuff he shouldn't at times and a few instances the last couple of ages with your tagged kds accidentally hitting into wars,waving kds that are already being waved by doubling or about to war with attacks going both ways .Sometimes being a leader of a group of kds has its drawbacks. They fly your tag you wear their mistakes also.
While i think Diamonds is trying to do better than he used to,The game is to small for alliances.Even tho they are not really tagged this age its not hard to find out whos in his group any different than it used to be finding out who was untagged in alliances 50 ages ago.
We are not hiding Thunder..
Thanks for the kind words, I feel like maybe you and I can finally put our history in the past and move forward.