Elit I would love to hook you up to a lie detector and ask you the question "Do you really believe zauper, Godly, or Topsy would 2v1 you after sending you a deal to let you fight 1v1"
I bet the needles would be whirling.
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Elit I would love to hook you up to a lie detector and ask you the question "Do you really believe zauper, Godly, or Topsy would 2v1 you after sending you a deal to let you fight 1v1"
I bet the needles would be whirling.
Easy logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Godly
1. Your kd 2v1ed ama completely unprovoked few ages ago.
2. This age you call dibs, serve botice in advance tell us not to fight anyone else and that you will hit regardless if we do.
3. Last minute you offer to war pyro with no b2b and we have to war you right after (being vultured by you)
Conclusion
Instead of being 2v1ed by you or taking your deal where you can vulture us we punish you instead.
Logical question:
If ama was not afraid of kd leagues above pyro in skill level and achievements that they ultimately win against (sanc, havoc/mercy, etc) why would they be afraid of pyro. If anything has been demonstrated this age is ama does not run and can win vs. anyone even when being in bad position.
Yes i believe you will do it after Zauper left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Considering I have crowns leading my own kds and you do not I can talk to you about crowns all day and night skipper. Ama has every right to punish havoc for past ****play which is none of your business as you haven't been around or even involved in any of this. Second everyone knows you had 0% chance of beating havoc, even your allies admit it who I have spoken to during these events. If you win this age it is only because we hit havoc, bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13nesta13
We were "fine" with it as even though what havoc did was "dirty", making a thread did NOT bend or break any rules that everyone plays by (The thread making was NOT a notice). If you took out your own age as well as Havoc's as you truly was pissed off at the treatment this age and last ages we would have gave you kudos but still called you out on the deal break that it was dirty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
We actually hope AMA can come together at the end of this to help constitute what is right or wrong.
Maybe one can be that no threads get made UNTIL the notice has been given or we allow it. We would obviously like all of the tops involvement
I'm going to repeat this again. Cause it was lost the past couple of ages. added some parts
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Guys & Girls,
Hope everyone (be it whicever kingdom that you come from) take 3-4 mins to read through this post. This post contains honest and neutral thoughts and anyone and everyone is free to challenge them.
For those who have just started reading this thread, this is a quick update/recap.
-----------------------
Q. Was AMA right to dealbreak CR/Havoc and wave them before CF expiry date?
In terms of the CF conditions, it's considered a dealbreak by AMA because the CF hasnt expired itself. However, AMA do take responsibility for their action and said their purpose is to 'punish' CR/Haovc. There have been differing voices from AMA on whether they would be keeping their acres, whether they are doing this to crown etc.
AMA's members have their rationale for doing so, which will be explained in the next few pointers.
Q. Was CR/Havoc right to create this thread and call dibs on AMA 1+weeks in advance of possible notice date?
Technically speaking, there is nothing wrong as it can be seen with either good or bad intentions. CR could be giving AMA advanced information that a notice would be served and hence benefiting AMA, or CR could be trying to 'force' AMA into warring them and no other kingdom.
There has been many cases where Kingdom A will tell Kingdom B that they are going to be noticed (i.e for Pyros' case, Simians noticing Pyro, BB-Pyro arranged war (where a notice still needs to be sent) etc etc). I still think it's fine with the intention of telling Kingdom B to not do any shady shenanigans, but it is not fine if the advanced notice is meant to 'corner' Kingdom A.
What was CR's intention in this thread? It looks like a mixture of both intentions.
However, I do not think it's very wise to ****talk/thrashtalk an opponent before you get into a SECURED advantageous position yourself. ****-talking/thrash-talking is fine per-say as it adds more fun & laughter to the game... and said to the right audience (no problem, you can **** talk me it's fine :D i can take it!) But I feel that certain members of CR really did it at the wrong timing (probably kicking themselves in the head now :( )
Q. Why was AMA pissed? Is it justified?
Based on certain AMA's + CR's members post + what I can see,
- AMA was mainly pissed for the fact that CR wanted to call dibs on AMA first and said that CR would be hitting them on April 1st regardless of what is going to happen. AMA felt that they are being 'forced' to war with CR.
- AMA also mentioned that they have a reset clause with CR (72hrs notice) that if AMA was involved in a hostile/war, this notice period has to be reset-ed. What happened was that AMA said that CR initially said that they are not willing to give an additional 72hrs notice if AMA were to war Pyro (i.e hitting AMA straight out of post-war is fine).
- AMA was also pissed that the past couple of ages, they got **** played (from their point of view) and no action were taken to help them. Apparently, (just had a history lesson of uto), AMA was doubled by Havoc+Sanc 3 ages ago... and Havoc+Sanc leaders are currently playing in CR. With that being said, AMA+Simians+Pew+BB+SWEA? all ganged up to kill abs the following age (2 ages ago)
In the end, CR was willing to allow both AMA+Pyro to war each other and give 96hours post war notice for both kingdoms on the condition that AMA+Pyro cannot b2b and the winner cannot run from CR. This was about 3.5-4 days before possible notice date. (note: Thread was started about 8-9days before possible notice date) Pyro was fine with this, but AMA said that this offer came very late and that the ****-talk+threathening already caused a deep wound.. CR claimed that this offer did not come very late.
In addition, AMA claimed that CR only offered this after they saw the ghetto razes on AMA's cow which weakened AMA alot... and hence CR felt more confident. (and tbh ofc, Pyros also felt more confident after this.). It was to the point where I felt Pyros chances vs AMA jumped from 25% to 75% (after cow razes)
Q. So should AMA be 'punished' for dealbreaking CR?
AMA members already said they expected to be GB so it is assumed they know they will be 'punished'. The more important question here is that : is this a bias-ed GB on AMA? Considering the fact that there were many '****plays' the past few ages that went unpunished.
Q. So has AMA played a great age so far? What about CR? What about Pyros? (the 3 current front runners thus far)
AMA definitely played a wonderful age thus far. Warring to whoring. They managed to beat two reputable kingdoms (Pew+Rage) in b2b2b wars (RK-Pew-Rage) and were in disadvantageous positions in both wars (Pew+Rage). Their warring ability is definitely top class, if not the best in utopia. However, after the ghetto problems (razes from solo cows from a ghetto kingdom), AMA had close to zero chance of winning CR in a straight up 1v1 fight as of then, and the razes also considerably reduced AMA's chance of a win vs Pyros as of then. If they had somehow won Pyro + Havoc back to back, I am sure even the worst haters of AMA will also give AMA credit.
CR has also definitely played a wonderful age so far. Diplomacy to whoring. They set up long-terms CFs with several kingdoms and managed to pick up acres + pump science freely throughout the age. Warring a way to win in utopia, but diplomacy also works. Whether or not 'tax-ing' kingdoms like Simians to 'slow-down' PewPew/Pyro is 'fine', it is up to the individual opinon. Personally, I disliked CR for doing so (from a competitor's viewpoint) but I dont find anything 'wrong' with it.. This is because once again, CR played a diplomatic age and used their resources+strengths to acehive such leveraged deals.
What about Pyros? Compared to the two above kingdoms, we probably did not do that great in terms of warring compared to AMA (Legacy, Simians, BB were tough opponents but were nothing compared to what AMA faced... b2b2b wars with Pewpew+Rage)... and we probably did not do that well in diplomacy compared to CR.. It is true that our chances of winning the age was quite low before AMA 'dealbroke' CR... However, we were willing to take our chances to war AMA and CR b2b, and there were strategies/plans that we had to win both kingdoms.. Unfortunately, I would not be able to share these with the public now.
In addition, some may say that if Pyros were to win the crown now.. would it be legitimate? would it be fair? (give they had very low chances...). I would say it is fair and legitmate. Why? Take the analogy of a chess game, Pyros is probably a Queen down and in a massively disadvantaged position... However, they are not lost yet. They can be patient and hope for a 'mistake' from the opponents to provide an opening. In this case, this 'mistake' came from AMA waving Havoc and hence providing a possible opening..
With that being said, Pyros will not take full advantage of this situation. We will take some advantage and get into a better position than we had before (before AMA waved CR), but it will be capped. Only time will tell if we stay true to our words. In addition, if we were to just whore up during CR-AMA conflict, and CR-AMA were to have a 1v1 fight, there would be zero chance that we can actually be on par with AMA after their huge cows+ww land bonus + huge acres. More importantly, this would mean that Pyros support this dealbreak/**** play and our stance is against such stuff. Not acting against this means we tolerate such stuff, that's a no.
Trust me, Pyros have many players who do not give a **** about crowning. They would like have it, but if they dont get it they wont whine, and if they get it unfairly they wont want it. I have players who will abandon if they see leadership doing ****play.
In closing, there's a slight possibility that AMA is too strong a kingdom, and that there needs for many kingdoms to bring them down.. Because the strongest are usually the most hated. and they usually do not win. I believe this is what players in AMA believe, but it's up to the community to decide if this is true or not. I am indifferent on this
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Once again, feel free to rebutt any of my points. Have a nice day!
Cheers
cJ
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PS: if you want tldr cliff notes version. TOO BAD DONT HAVE
tldr: #YOLO!
Like you told simians you would hit SWEA, backed off and left your ally to rot dealing behind simian's back?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
so who is going to crown now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
1) CR, zauper, topsy, munk, fook, etc, or myself have never 2v1'ed anyone. Any deal has to go through us. It just wouldn't happen. I care more about my rep than a crown. If they came to me with a plan to 2v1 you, I'd quit on the spot. You know me. Can you recall one single instance where I've done something bad in utopia?
2) This was mainly a joke thread along with all of the other "dibs threads" because you're in the kingdom and the dibs inventor so we thought it was funny although looking back we probably shouldn't have made it. We were planning on serving notice on Jan 1st and seeing what happened (if you were available April 1st). When it was clear that there was no stopping Pyro vs AMA, we:
3) Offered you a deal to war pyro and have *8 days* to recoup to fight us. It wasn't last minute. It was like 1-2 days after this thread was made. How is 8 days vulture? I could rebuild my entire kd in 8 days. BB offered us 8 days after we fought AMA 3 rounds ago and it was universally recognized as "flogger being a nice guy."
Sure the odds weren't much in your favor, but 8 days or 16 days wouldn't have changed it. We had huge sci/gold adv on you and it wouldn't have changed. We earned our better position through diplomacy while you warred. Your complaints that "this is not fair" well duh man.. every fight in utopia isn't always fair. I know that being former Abs and not being used to fighting B2B wars is tough because you usually had someone block, but I've been doing this for 40 rounds now, bro. Man up. You can't just dealbreak when the going gets tough.
Conclusion: not only is there 0 history of CR's leadership of dealbreaking/2v1s, we offered you the deal you wanted. Anyone reading this can note that I would never ever agree to a dealbreak or a 2v1. I hope I've made myself clear.
Logical question: Fair point. I'm not sure of the answer to that question. It did seem from the intel that you would probably lose or narrowly win. I'm not sure why you squandered your chance to win by dealbreaking. Personally there was a small part of me rooting for you guys to pull off the complete round win. Real talk, I would have been the first to congratulate you.
Another logical question, Proteus: When does this current CR team no longer responsible for something from 4 rounds ago? Didn't we pay our dues already 3 rounds ago even though the leaders weren't a part of it and it was just the kd name? Like will we all be 40 years old still arguing about this?
lol :)Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
I agree with this, it will not matter who ll end up #1 this age. The age will not have a true winner due to this. Put yourself in the shoes of the 'so called alliance'. We cant let you guys end first after a dealbreak like you pulled, it would basicly allow all the ****play in the upcoming ages. Lets just all see this as a lost age and try to play with more decency next round as the utopia community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Pyro is going to win crown this age. Was predicted from me yr 1 can provide logs when back home :)Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
Next age pyro going to pay price for join gb how i promised cj and nesta.
So what, you expected to keep those acres & win the crown?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
I really think you guys thought you would get away with it!
We get this kind **** play past 4 ages every age. Deal break, Double hostile, Farm out, friends for raze us and much more. Part from kds involved in this kds was kd pull this **** play because they cant win fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humanoize
About legitimates on crown this age. Yes its wont be real win if pyro win its why you will win. Pyro had zero chances to win it proper ever if you had war with AMA and won it. You still cant beat havoc in 1vs1 afrer it. DMG from war with us and time you hav left for prepare is not enough for meet kd pump 8 weeks. Its same for us if we have won war vs pyro. Reall losser there is Havoc for try power play us and secure his win when its was already sure win.
Keep living in the past....Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
We all start at 400 acres (see for yourself, check your kingdom page), and in the end...you don't get to play with the cool kids anymore. Now that is the bottom line.
Told CJ. Go war havoc atm when both kds are same size almost. If you win war you can win age legit. We will let pyro finish n1. Was simple. You need to war at least 1 from main competitors and win for deserve your age win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Knight
I'm sure you'll take us all out to exact your revenge for your ****play right? Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
We almost already took every KD out that is currently GBing us this age. Maybe next we can do allQuote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
What if Pyro and others decide to give throne to CR after a huge GB!
That would be a pretty nice turnaround!
And mad respect for everyone involved + Deal break wouldnt have done anything expect lots of emotions and see the true colors of people!
Anyway, we are at the half of the movie right now and except being out of popcorn again, this has prooved to be an amazing movie so far! bad guys, good guys, sore loosers, whinning, backstabbing, heros, action, emotions, EVERYTHING is there!
Not so sure anymore :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Binar
AMA fail to know WHAT the GBers have agreed to. Pyro and Havoc will fight for the crown. Once AMA is no longer a threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
A post with more details will be coming soon. You can continue to spew in the meantime how you was treated badly etc and you done nothing wrong but for the good of the game we will see a war fought out for the crown WITHIN the rules without **** playing.
Admit it, Havoc was in a position better than you because they played better than you. As you say, "Everyone starts at 400 acres."
In all honesty, neither PyroManiaCs nor AMA had any chance to crown. I fail to see why you should hold a grudge against PyroManiaCs because of them #utopolice-ing your dealbreak. Seriously, cJ trusted you to intra raze at first and so did NesTa. Only until you yourself wrote a post saying that you'll be keeping the acres did the opinion change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
You (AMA) not only dealbroke, but then also lied about intentions (Cello & Proteus).
Is that a new rule? So, when will AMA war ShinRa for the WW crown then?Quote:
You need to war at least 1 from main competitors and win for deserve your age win.
This GB is stupid. KDs hide behind big words, but their reasons for doing it are f..... up. Why this deserves a GB and all the other ****playing from last 4-5 ages didn't is beyond me. Its the only way to beat ama/pb, its that simple.
Even Zauper believed you would, Godly :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Like when he told you he quit the kd for good? :) You know, zauper can have a sense of humor too.
Do you know how we can recognize it is being jelly not being defenders of ethics? As i said i fully accept being gbed. But that will not be the end. Next age AMA will again pwn them all in war and they will all come crying out "gb" :). Mark my words. Also from what we've see last couple of ages I expect Pyro to win age, and that we pwn them next age, sending them back in the "warring" kd tier. You can write that down too.
Point is. Even with the gb (second in two ages by simians). That will not change anything. I bet no other kd will be gbed and ppl will keep seeking revenge from AMA, revenge for being mediocre :).
I don't think Elit, Cello, or Proteus are painting a very good better picture for themselves. Every time one of them posts, my opinion of AMA drops and to think I was respecting AMA for beating PewPew and Rage.
I was thinking they might have a chance at a legit crown going through PewPew, Rage, Pyro, and CR but looks like they chose to not get a crown at all and to have a blackmark on their kd for ages to come. Way to make a dying game die faster.
I feel AMA will do something to ruin that war. Hitting into it, getting others to hit into it. Something will be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
I dont understand how people seem to be whinning about ****play in the past and how noone did anything about it. seems like something is done about it now and it is still viewed as a new form of ****play? So basically cause you got ****played before you have the right to ****play now, and because no one helped you when you got ****played then no one should help now in a ****play situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCurious
****...
yes you are totally right about our chances to win the age. But your chances were also very slim. I honestly wanted to have a final war of the age against your kingdom, give it our best and see how far we could get against a kingdom of your reputation. This was even before the razes by therock happened. Despite I dislike your recent methods, I know that you have the best kingdom left in the game and putting up a good fight against you, would have given me much more satisfaction then what the outcome of the age now will be (even more because the unbased namecalling from proteus earlier this age). I would not have cared that CR would have won the age. I am convinced that within the unwritten rules of utopia, they had the best strategy this age and therefore deserved to win. And as you are, I am not fond at all about their cocky, arrogant, manipulating playstyle. But I m convinced that an attitude like that will backfire at some point in the game. In my opinion they didnt vialote any aspect of "the code". The prenotice was blown completely out of proportion in these forums, but in the end it didnt hurt your kingdom at all. It only pissed you off because it was rude and arrogant. Therefor it hurt your pride and with excuses from the past you try to give it a twist. The current situation just sucks, because with the changes it was a very promesing age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
Funniest thing about this is some of the biggest ****players in the game now tagging up in the name of Fair Play XD
You misunderstood my post. My point is, why GB now and not before? Either police it 100% or dont bother at all. Convenient policing is lame.Quote:
Originally Posted by RawStuff
It's quite clear in our internal chat, that this is in no way a question about taking crown but to have a stabil T10 in the future! We're fully aware that this may not be the brightest move of them all, but all back the project due to the necessity of statement! Since we entered the whoring tier this age as ghetto nubs we had no plans even getting close to crown. This move is more importend to us than getting any crown, since we'd like ppl to think of us the way we do, as a KD who like fun, wars and games as long as those are fair games!Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
Never too late to redempt yourself! Amen ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cello
PewPew should help this GB then, coz 6 kds to gb AMA is not enuf imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
And what if AMA ruins Havoc/Pyro war and decide winner of the age? ;)
This **** should be solved via diplomacy, not via gb, told it long ago in this thread, too pity Elit is not interested much.
U miss us?
and it still is the clearest FW ive seen.
havoc isnt even touching AMA banks
Diplomacy was given to Elit but he turned it all down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drug
Okay then. Good point!! FW!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Binar
Godly i never invented dibs nor have I ever used it on anyone so i don't know where you get it from, perhaps you are confusing me with sanc. Even haters here can confirm this so that was a complete fail on your part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Second people who were in sanc and havoc that were leaders (maxi mouse, nickmi, hawk) play in your kd now so you still bear responsibility....you cant 2v1 someone and take their crown away and then threaten to do it again.
We never did this as a crown grab and fully expected to get gbed. Only reason the n00b alliance joined gb is so they have a chance to crown this age which they formerly did not as ama raped 2/3 of them for a disadvantaged position.
You would have been fine this age for past actions if you didn't try to dib us, dictate who we should war and threaten 2v1. You are supposed to be smart and know the game man, do you guys think you'd be in this position if elit didnt have good relations with Zauper? No we'd fight you early age and would most likely win. You should have done the deal zauper tried to make with us before your council overruled it. Problem is when you guys feel close to crowning you just go crazy and fick everyone over to get it done. It's supported historically because your kd 2v1ed ama in a crown grab ages ago, you abandoned rage to dealbreak to try and crown age before last, and this age you tried to dibs us and threaten to hit us when cf ends regardless of what we do or who we fight. If you just let zauper handle things and play as he has been playing youd have been fine and crowned.