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3-4 ages(?) ago the runes issue was addressed by increasing the sci modifier for magic from 5 to 6, allowing sci to mod tower production even more AND towers were increased from producing 10 runes per tower to 12.5 - thats a significant increase. I think the only reason people say elves have a rune issue is because they expect to be casting MS with all of elves 50% larger mana pool.
rune production was addressed but rune stealing/destroying was not. And that is a big issue for playing non delf mage.
One LS can take out over half your runes which is ridiculous and rob towers requires so few thieves to be effective its worth it even if you fail more than half of your ops.
As an example ... last time we were going to war enemy a/t stole most of my runes in just 5-6 ops (80k or so). I had one of our thieves steal it back and used them to LS their mages destroying ~400k runes in the process, blowing up 60-70k per op on provinces with 100-130k runes.
In an active irc using KD its not such a big issue as you can always get runes fairly easy to use up mana on less expensive spells. For a person who logs on 2-3 times a day and doesn't use any im's that is huge issue imo.
In that case you can consider runes like any other resource. You cannot just disregard their protection. A competent player will have no issues as an elf with having enough runes imo.
Regarding on spells casting such as MS and FB, Elf Mystic are much better in doing these tasks than a DE Mystic.
You guys must have forgotten the +30% spell potency to Mystic Pers, making Elf an unstoppable Mystic race. It's harder for Elf Mystic to fail a MS than a DE Mystic if both provinces have the everything the same (land size, science, guild% and number of wizards). Elf have a list of top-notched Self buffs to protect itself from harmful spells but DE don't.
Differences between Elf and DE - Elf has pitfall while DE has got Nightmare.
Sorry but I dont see a way to instantly destroy 50%+ of any other resource with one op, or steal huge stockpile of it with 5-6 ops while sending ridiculously low amount of thieves. As an elf sage with 100%+ in channeling and 90+ be I dedicate 10-15% of land to towers, 15% of land to wt's and have CS on 24/7. And I am still too easy to disable with ls/rob vaults. I find it overpowered.
Its especially out of proportion when compared to rob vaults which is second widely used rob op, regular province will produce 20 times as many gc as runes at least yet one thief can take only 4 times as many gc as runes and game mechanics will allow you to take more than double the % of existing runes than its case with gc. Granted, me making this comparison may be a bit off mark since gc and runes are not exactly the same thing but I feel it puts thing in perspective a bit. Rob towers is overpowered and should be toned down quite a bit, LS is just pure out of control ... destroying 2 days worth of stockpiling runes with on op ... waaaaay too strong. Should be least made war only or seriously nerfed.
I don't consider it to be gamebreaking in my case since I can get what I need through irc, but I think its huge part of why so many people pick delfs.
Free Paradise does not make a DE a bad choice in that regards. In fact i'm pretty sure Sanctuary ABS won last age with that strat.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
But as you say, Robbing Towers can gather you a large ammount of runes with fairly low T's, this works both ways in war. You and your KD mates can also rob your opponents and spend those runes quickly as well. And if your not running enough TPA to rob towers then your really asking to be AW'd if your a decent mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by citadela01
My KD's running 1 Elf atm and we are able to aid her enough runes to keep her mana low or empty. Either through self generation or through stealing. It's not a huge issue.
Saying something that's broken is broken both ways doesn't really address the issue. Its still broken. Runes are valuable resource used mostly to harm other provinces during war and as such shouldn't really be so easy to steal/destroy. Stealing over 1/3 of ones resources in one op with very few thieves or destroying more than half with one spell is overpowered. Risks involved in it are very small and rewards are potentially huge.
That said I am highjacking the thread kinda so I'll just let it go at this.
No, I'm not saying it's broken at all, don't put words in my mouth. There has been several changes that have weakened DE's no runes advantage that Bishop has stated earlier. In addition any attacker can help the rune needing mages to steal runes. On top of that, Elfs can cast many more spells over the course of war then any other race so logically it would demand more runes. What I'm saying is the rune issue or the no rune bonus of DE's isn't a big issue during war at all, you just need coordination. I mean if your forced or if you choose to play Mage alone then yea ofc your gonna run out or get it stolen, that's why its a Team game.
In fact the biggest advantage of DE's is really OOW with free paradise, or ToG if your not in a chart climbing KD. Other than that, the race as a whole is pretty weak.
DEs worked for Sanctuary because of the boost to paradise their +effectivity on spells gave. DE mystics would still be the best dicers if the rules on dice weren't changed. But as soon as they lost the dice advantage, nobody went DE.
They changed how Paradise works. Dice is no longer affected by any modifiers and just gives 2-8 acres. What worked last age is a lot more difficult this age.
DE is a poor choice for war kingdoms since stocking up runes for a 2-4 day war isn't that hard and kingdom mates can supply runes if needed. Only NM would make me consider using DE instead of regular Elves for warring but a good NM-chain is very hard to organize.
DE would be a better choice for ghettos where people don't use IRC and can't supply runes at need. Still, selfish people are what turns kingdoms into ghettos so a kingdom with many DEs is very likely to have very poor organization.
As one who is playing Elf/Mystic this age, I'd have to disagree somewhat with the first part of that statement. It's easy as long as some halfer doesn't come along and decide that you make a good rune farm. Then you get this Lost 109,878 runes to thieves (4 ops) and lose about 2/3 of the supply that you've been working on hoarding. Really, I don't think that he could take 2/3 of my gc in 4 ops, 2/3 of my peasants in 4 ops, but he sure as heck did take 2/3 of my runes in 4 ops...Quote:
Originally Posted by Landro
But yes, in an organized or even just a semi-organized KD, you can supply a mage or two with enough runes to cast just by getting the surplus from the attackers, plus they will be producing their own runes. In my case, it's not enough to cast MS each tic, but it's enough to cast anything that costs less than that and have a surplus produced, so if I do go into war with a decent stockpile, it's rare that I run out of that stockpile before 36 hours into it. After that I get aided runes from A/Ts and pure attackers and that fills the gap.
Losing 2/3 of your runes in 4 ops is insane but then again, LS can destroy about half in a single cast. It would be better if the gains/losses were reduced a bit. Spreading out your rune stockpile among kingdom mates makes you less vulnerable.
Imo DE is the simplest race to play atm (followed by gnome cos of no intel randomness and cheap leets so you can't rly **** up). Also they are very good individual provinces, they can sustain their econ rather well through homes+tog. In ghetto they are rly cool race for a chill play.
For anything more serious, they suck. Mainly because their ****ty army and not so good economy. Sure, you can tog, but you dont tog in war. Also, like it was said, few SWs from time to time and DE is gone (but you rly have to pay attention on his login patterns etc because doing SW on 8 mana province is lame). Their army is bad. I dont think i would attempt at playing DE attacker. Elf is much better attacker than DE is so if you want a/m, go with elf.
NM chain is hard to orgainise? 4 DE do a mana run Thieves NS then everyone attacks. Not difficult at all.