is elves def spec nw also inflated, along with it's def?
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is elves def spec nw also inflated, along with it's def?
No. All dspecs are valued at 1 Nw/D spec point, so the efficiency will always remain relative to the other races. The extra point just allows it to train more offense, which is almost enough in itself, but it's elite efficiency really holds it back. Plus a 6/3 value is inherently stupid. 6/4 @ 4.5 Nw makes the most sense, but given that the final changes have been made, I recommend you make other strategy plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanoidTyphoon
elves are awesome, look harder.
We will have to agree to disagree. Undead at base 10% conversion is miles ahead in military and spellbook. And money ain't no thang next age Bishop. Remember the 4gc per acre per tick increase (assuming 8pPA), and Elf will be cheap to run. So what? Elf is going to go Sage and dump that money into science? There are better personalities than sage. If you go sage I can be better, if you don't but still pump that money into science then I will learn you in hostile. I guess it all comes down to the kingdom... how much the KD values PF and if the KD values Elf over Faery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
EDIT: Also... I will eat my socks if Elf wins any crown (Honour included). Isn't gonna happen.
Elf has significant NW bloat and bad space efficiency despite the 6 def spec. They really are just plain terrible - what in their spell book possibly makes up for they bad army? Whatever it is... Faery has it as well, and the ToG easily makes up for their econ, and then a lot. And the fog and ambush strength make up the 4% attack power Faery was short (see my table). Fanat, btw, makes that difference 2%.
Between Faery and Elf the *only* advantage I see Elf having is being able to spam more fireballs. Which, frankly, isn't really an important consideration when you look at the +stealth Faery gets and the better damage you can dish out with all spells.
Take another look at my earlier table - those assumptions aren't bad for estimating raw attacking power. Elf with the current NW elite just plain stinks, and it's got nowhere near the compensation for it Faery has. In fact, I'd revise my view of Halfers up above Elf. Thinking on it a bit more, I do in fact believe Elf is *the worst race* this age. Halfers at least should be run for the gnome intel - sucks for whoever has to play intel *****, but someone's got to do it. Any kingdom plan that involves Elves is suboptimal in my book.
Quick add: you can see where the fixed Elf ranks - maybe a *little* high. Someone proposed 4.75 NW elites for Elf, which I think is safer than my proposed 4.5 NW.
elf isn't aewsome, look closelier.
Ethan, are you proposing a faery AM in a ghetto?
ho ho ho.
Or A/T, or A/t/m. Ya, you just run lower pes by a bit and ToG oow for stronger sci. Not sure if sage, tact, or rogue is best. Clearly the more of them (in a coordinated kingdom) the better, as a NM chain requires a critical mass and has a small window. But ToG and Fog make them a ligit attacker on their own, even in a getto. Not that most in a getto *will* be any good, as they'll all mindlessly go T/M, to the detriment of all. But a good player can run a "solo" Faery attacker, and a kingdom strat can use them as their core hybrids. (Pure "heavy" attacker is out - I grant there *is* a limit to what you can compensate for. 100 opa is not gonna happen. 60 can.)
Ignoring the rest of the kingdom - Dwarf might make a better A/M than Faery. Elf, I'm fairly sure, does not.
You CAN run anything, but people don't WANT to run a sub-par prov.
Not that I was planning on going Faery A/M but I have put a bit of thought into it.
The problem I haven't been able to get around with a Faery a/M is that you won't get any def boost when armies are home if your using O-specs for Offence. This will leave you rather open to super easy learn attacks from ppl.
Basically if your running 60 OPA with Ospecs (don't forget Fanaticism) and 50-60 DPA with Elites you wont be able to protect that same sci even when armies are home, since you'll still only have 50-60 DPA armies home. Running more Elites works for the defense side but it makes it incredibly tough to hit the 60 OPA then.
Was I missing something in my crude calcs?
Ethan wants easy learns ;) without any fear of a retal.
That and buildings would be so tight that it would leave you almost unable to make good use of the +50% magic bonus and all spells.
Retraining elites in war as a Faery a/M?? if you use ToG in war then you cant use your magic offensively!
BTW Ethan you made me laugh.
1 orc ... just causes
2 undead ... just causes
3 avian ... just causes
4 halfer ... yupp
5 rest ... yupp
I doubt that ToG all age long will dig you out of the well that -10% pop put you in! Faery as a hybrid attacker is a joke. Palem said it, people don't want to run sub-par provs.
Avian is obviously top in the heavy attacker squadron. Just look at those cheap elites... 650gc! Compared to an orc (900gc) good god. Less pump-time = more sciences, nuff said. I think the combination of high attack rate + low casualties, is what makes an attacker strong in the long run. Sure 120 OPA is nice, but after 2 days when you are 2 attacks behind and 1/4 of your army is destroyed it doesn't matter how pretty you were in the beginning.
Any orc with an all elite army would be getting ambushed for days and need to run high towers and guilds just to keep up with anon. The casualties they would suffer would be terrible. The avian attack rates were just a bear to overcome last age due to the high casualties, but with a race like cleric that aspect of the equation is thrown out; not to mention the +3% OME everyone is overlooking from the extra general. People need to look at the race in the long run of war, not the first 24 hours.
I agree with most when I say that people in this thread are underestimating Undeads. Yes, they will also be subject to ambush, BUT, that is literally the only way you can kill off their elites. NO casualties on offensive attacks. That is nuts. Once again...in the long run that definitely comes into play. Combine that with the +30% spec credits from tactician to keep defense specs up, and they become a tough nut to crack.
I am sorry but mathematical formulas don't take that type of stuff into consideration. The game is far more dynamic than your methods of ranking races.
Oh.....and I like elves!! Haha! A/M hybrid for elf looks tasty. The ability to spam FB as Ethan pointed out is precisely what elves are meant to do! +2 mana per tick in war cannot be overlooked.
I'd call that an a/M though - cause no way is an Elf going to be able to put the full 20%+ towers into their build to keep FB spam at full and still fit in all the other buildings they need to be a decent attacker. They'll either be low on raw power, or be a "glass cannon" with no sustaining power. You just can't overcome the awful elite when it comes to attacking. Other hybrids pick which they want good, which poor (or both medium) - elf is picking which is merely poor, which is awful. The situations where +1 FB/hour is worth that... few, imo.
Undead - sci malus is big. Bigger than you know. Sure, they rank just below orc with full elite army, even at 15% pop sci (before malus). But give them a 50/50 split, and they stop looking so good - orc, avian, and human all beat the UD out easily. You can't hybrid as well (can't A/T at all without rogue) and your econ has no bonus, though it doesn't need elite training either. I agree they will be good, and plague in war is scary when used well (aka, chain picker or containment via bounces). But I think a skilled player *should* do better with other choices.
Agree on Avian. Think tact is the better choice (NW free offense!), but that isn't clear, and probably depends on player (and style). I was going to run it till the Faery bashing got so heavy I had to prove it wrong.
Faery - The poster child of your point about the limitations of static analysis. I can't get them out of "last place" in my evaluations, but I'm planning to play them as an attacker next age anyway. I did my best to factor in the spells I could (eventually had fanat and FoK and TW in there, getting them to 88% of a fanat orc), but there isn't anything I can model that covers Fog + QF + (easier) MV ability. And while you can MV the fog off a dwarf - you'll need a dedicated mage to MV fog off a Faery. Those don't happen (or aren't used correctly) at most levels of play - and SK gets NM chains, even better.
The big wild-card for Faery for me is static defense: never had that before. I'm planning to use a (very) few elites on the first 1-2 hits in a war till I rebalance at my war off ratio. And fanat.
This is false. NS affects army out. I'm not sure if MS or NM affect army out, but also possibly those. You also aren't considering other methods of affecting an army such as overpopulation and starvation, although starvation doesn't apply to Undead.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdibleUndies