Israel, it's about time!

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05-01-2009, 18:12
AFKain

Quote:

If Hamas wanted it could have put their people away from the rockets and the fighting.

No Hamas should put their rockets away from the people, there is a huge difference. People stay at their homes since they have nowhere to go. Even if they are aware of there being rockets in their vicinity they have nowhere to go... They can't simply go "away" since they don't have anywhere to seek shelter.

Quote:

Israel does not aim at civilian targets. Israel issues warnings to the civilian population and even send them humanitarian aid.

You talk a lot about this humanitarian aid, I am curious of how much of it there is and who it reaches. I read earlier today that Israel isn't even letting replacement surgeons from the Red Cross into Gaza (they've been waiting to be let in since before the ground forces entered Gaza).

Edit: hitting enemy troops knowing that civilians will be killed as well is not much different from targeting civilians directly.

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Of course there are sides. Physically there is the border. Non-physically there is the nationality and citizenship.

You did read the Geneva quote I posted right? Let me refresh your memory... "shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

You cannot say that civilians of a certain nationality are any more worthy of protection than others... Civilians are civilians, they are not part of this conflict and the killing of them is an Israeli war crime.

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If the suicide bomber explodes in an Israeli military base it is acceptable that civilians will die. Israel is responsible for the civilians within its military bases.

If, on the other hand, the suicide bomber explodes in a bus station and one soldier dies, it is still a civilian target and Israel is not responsible for the civilian deaths.

I am sure that most people would not be so outraged if civilians were killed in closed military facilities in which only Hamas soldiers are living and over which Hamas has full control, such are legitimate targets in my opinion. What Israel is doing is bombing bus stations where a Hamas soldier has a few rockets.

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You used the worst instead of worse which lead to the confusion.

I don't see Israel's actions as terrorism. It's no more terrorism than any other war.

The goal is not to terrorize the Palestinian population but to stop Hamas rockets for a long period of time.

I used worse because it was a comparison of two acts and one of them was the worst action... It does not matter what goal the Israeli military claims it has, what matters is the effects of this military operation and that is pure terror.

Quote:

First, you didn't answer my question as to where you get your info from.

Second, the fact that there is flour for two more days shows that Gaza was not starved. Israel sends shipments of humanitarian aid into Gaza to prevent, as much as possible, a humanitarian crisis.

I get my information from a Swedish newspaper called Dagens Nyheter, The Washington Post, The New York Times and The Times. Where do you get yours by the way?

I used starved in the sense that the people in gaza were being deprived of a great deal of resources and goods. That all of gaza would run out of flour this quickly even with rationing shows how little there was available in the first place.

Quote:

This quote is very nice, but if these people take no active part they should get away from the danger zone. Hamas forces its people to stay in the danger zone to serve as a human shield.

This is interesting, first you say that people should just leave (again without consideration for the fact that your military forces civilians to leave their homes and all their possessions, trading their previous lives for a future with a very uncertain life expectancy in a literal war zone... but I think I covered that earlier) and then you say that they can't leave because Hamas doesn't let them? Anyway, all of Gaza is a danger zone, and the borders are closed.

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If you were at war with a country, do you think that you'd send your sons into harms way so your army could attack without retaliation?

Will you let your people die because the enemy uses children as human shields?

I don't really see how sending troops into "harms way" would prevent retaliation, I think you'll have to rephrase that.
Anyway if I were at war and if I had the authority to decide such things I would very carefully weigh the consequences of all attacks that my military forces took part in. I would also consider the military threat of the enemy compared to the civilian damage and casualties that the retaliatory strikes could result in. I would not allow attacks that risk killing as many civilians as enemies when the enemy's military threat does not require that. In this case there is clearly no great threat.
Anyway I would probably also want to use more precise methods than bombing enemies and civilians alike.

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That's the point. They have no claims because what Israel is doing is legal self defense.

That is a very invalid point. Hamas doesn't have any claim, the civilians which are killed, wounded and driven from their homes do however.

Quote:

I agree it doesn't say that explicitly in my quote of the Geneva convention, but I'm sure you can find it.

I told you it's not the full interview and that I'd like a link to the full interview.

You want me to find your arguments for you? I feel pretty sure that there is nothing to that effect stated in the Geneva convention, if you feel otherwise I encourage you to find it.
05-01-2009, 22:56
stoffi

This is from a norwegian newspaper: (this is a norwegian doctor reporting from a hospital in Gaza)

"Totalt har sykehuset tatt imot 132 skadede i dag, hvorav 55 prosent er kvinner og barn. I tillegg har det kommet inn over 40 døde, hvorav 60 prosent er kvinner og barn."

What he is saying, is that the hospital has recieved 132 injured ppl today, and 55% of them are women and children. In addition, they have recieved 40 dead, where 60% are women and children.

"- Jeg har ikke sett en eneste soldat i dag. De skadede og døde er sivile, noe som tyder på at det er boligområder som er blitt bombet.
"

He says he has not seen a single soldier come into the hospital injured/dead today. The injured and the dead are civilians only, which means residential areas have been bombed.

Is this not terror?
05-01-2009, 23:02
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerofGlory

hmm..
do any of you know your history?

last i check there was something called the kingdom of the Israel.

Palestine didnt exist by. soo chronologically and historically. Israel as a Nation is just reinstated and not Installed, since they do have claim to the land disputed. What the UN did was to appease the Palestinians and separated them and Israel. As for Israel they cant care less but retake what was supposedly theirs in the 1st place. Palestinians should be happy about the agreement instead of bombing Israel, which is like giving Israel a perfect reason to try to retake their lost lands. Its like the Russia vs Georgia where Georgia was stupid enough to give Russia a reason to steam roll them and then now Hama like Georgia is playing the "victim" where its their fault at the 1st place in provoking.

here is a nice question for all of you?
have you visited israel's southern cities? if no, go visit and you will be thousands of sharpnel and bomb/rocket parts lined up to remind them what they are up against in the south.

terror sparks terror. Even Hamas knows that. that is why its playing the "victim" so the UN will intervene.

I agree with israel where International Monitor will be installed that way hamas cant say sh*t and they cant launch rockets and play "victim"

for hamas not agree with that, just show hamas will not honor any agreement and try to severe ties.

Okay... According to this logic, USA must surrender all its land to the indians. And since most europeans today came from the east, we ought to kick out ppl in the east and take the lands for ourselves.
While we are at it, we should kill ourselves and let the dinosaurs take over because they owned the land long ago.

The Israelites INVADED palestine thousands of years ago, and drove off its original residents. Later, the jews were driven off themselves.

It's now thousands of years since the jews had kingdoms in the region, the one that lasted the longest was Judea.

How that gives the jews a claim to palestine, is beyond my understanding. Give Rome back Europe then, give the mongols back the world, give the greeks back their empire, give germany back to France, give india +++++ back to England.
This logic is flawed.

However, we can't undo what the UN did. The jews are there to stay now, but they are extremely greedy and grab more every day. That we can stop.
Israel is a terrorist, apartheid nation, sadly.
05-01-2009, 23:04
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Of course it's still a civilian target.

If a terrorist comes to bomb your house and a soldier comes to help you, will you consider your house a military target?

I will only consider a bus station (or house) as a military target if it has a military purpose (like storing rockets).

Then why does Israel bomb houses where normal ppl live? Why does Israel bomb universities? Police stations? Market places?
Israel can do it, but not Hamas? That logic is flawed. I'd say no one has the right to inflict terror on others like Israel does, and Hamas.

Take a look at the casualties, wake up for christs sake.
05-01-2009, 23:51
stoffi

And I must repeat myself, Hamas was NOT the ones who broke any cf. Israel broke it. November 4th for example, they attacked and killed many Hamas members in Gaza.
This was done to provoke Hamas into fighting back.

So please don't say Hamas broke the cf, Israel did and hamas waited till the cf was over before they responded. Hamas did everything right, but Israel has made sure few ppl know this.
06-01-2009, 00:05
stoffi

I might add that this war has been planned for 6 months, and was not unleashed because of Hamas firing rockets.
An office was established many months ago in Israel, to plan this offensive. Then november 4th, Israel kills a bunch of Hamas ppl ,breaking the CF. Israel knows this will make Hamas respond, but Hamas waits till the cf is over, and then retaliates.

All press members have been locked out of Gaza for many months already, to make sure no one can report about the massacres that are happening today. Israel even bombed all telecommunication yesterday, to make sure the two norwegian doctors could not appear on Larry King in USA. They have now found other ways to report what Israel is doing, and have been interviewed in CNN, BBC, etc today.

So as you see, this war was planned for months and Israel provoked Hamas into sending rockets.

800-900 children are now injured/dead. 5 Israelis are dead. If this is not terror, then what is?
800/900 children is not a figure taken from thin air, but is taken from what a norwegian doctor in Gaza just said live on norwegian tv.
06-01-2009, 01:57
Mourhelm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

No Hamas should put their rockets away from the people, there is a huge difference.

Good point, I stand corrected. However, since Hamas already put the rockets in houses, it should at the very least take the population to shelters or areas less likely to be hit (places without weapon depots).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

People stay at their homes since they have nowhere to go. Even if they are aware of there being rockets in their vicinity they have nowhere to go... They can't simply go "away" since they don't have anywhere to seek shelter.

I disagree. Not every house has rockets in it. Another possible location they can go to is their hospital.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

You talk a lot about this humanitarian aid, I am curious of how much of it there is and who it reaches. I read earlier today that Israel isn't even letting replacement surgeons from the Red Cross into Gaza (they've been waiting to be let in since before the ground forces entered Gaza).

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ryof9Modw5q9Gg

That's one example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

Edit: hitting enemy troops knowing that civilians will be killed as well is not much different from targeting civilians directly.

It is very different. Hamas knows that it's the target. It should protect its civilians and not use them as human shields.

Also, when Israel knows for sure that there will be many civilian casualties, it doesn't attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

You did read the Geneva quote I posted right? Let me refresh your memory... "shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

You cannot say that civilians of a certain nationality are any more worthy of protection than others... Civilians are civilians, they are not part of this conflict and the killing of them is an Israeli war crime.

I didn't say that Palestinian civilians are less worthy of protection. I said that the responsibility for protecting them is on the other side - Hamas's side.

If these civilians were behind our soldiers they would protect them to the best of their ability and would not use them as human shields.

If the intent was to kill them, I would agree that it is a war crime. As I said before, if Israel wanted to kill them, it could do so in a few hours and with a lot less losses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

I am sure that most people would not be so outraged if civilians were killed in closed military facilities in which only Hamas soldiers are living and over which Hamas has full control, such are legitimate targets in my opinion. What Israel is doing is bombing bus stations where a Hamas soldier has a few rockets.

If the bus station has a military purpose (launching rockets) it is a military target.

Everywhere that Hamas situates its rockets and weaponry is a military facility.

If Israel would fire it's artillery from a city, would you call that a civilian target as well? Will you condone Hamas for targeting it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

I used worse because it was a comparison of two acts and one of them was the worst action...

Worse = more bad than something.
Worst = more bad than anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

It does not matter what goal the Israeli military claims it has, what matters is the effects of this military operation and that is pure terror.

There is no more terror in this action than in any other war.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

I get my information from a Swedish newspaper called Dagens Nyheter, The Washington Post, The New York Times and The Times. Where do you get yours by the way?

Israeli and foreign media (in English). When I quote things here I try to refrain from using Israeli sources.

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSUSoPrICqQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

I used starved in the sense that the people in gaza were being deprived of a great deal of resources and goods. That all of gaza would run out of flour this quickly even with rationing shows how little there was available in the first place.

If Hamas didn't use all its money to buy weaponry the Palestinians wouldn't have to rely on humanitarian aid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

This is interesting, first you say that people should just leave (again without consideration for the fact that your military forces civilians to leave their homes and all their possessions, trading their previous lives for a future with a very uncertain life expectancy in a literal war zone... but I think I covered that earlier)

If the Palestinians wouldn't allow Hamas to store rockets in their homes they wouldn't need to go anywhere.

If I used my house to store lots of bombs in my basement I would know that there is a risk that I'll lose my house, my possessions and my life (because my house just became a legitimate military target). The Palestinians knows that too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

and then you say that they can't leave because Hamas doesn't let them?

I meant that some of those that want to leave danger zones are forced to stay and act as human shields for Hamas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

Anyway, all of Gaza is a danger zone, and the borders are closed.

Again, Not every house has rockets in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

I don't really see how sending troops into "harms way" would prevent retaliation, I think you'll have to rephrase that.

I didn't said soldiers, I said children ("your son"). If you could use your child as a human shield for your army, would you do it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

Anyway if I were at war and if I had the authority to decide such things I would very carefully weigh the consequences of all attacks that my military forces took part in. I would also consider the military threat of the enemy compared to the civilian damage and casualties that the retaliatory strikes could result in. I would not allow attacks that risk killing as many civilians as enemies when the enemy's military threat does not require that.

I would do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

In this case there is clearly no great threat.

Try living in terror for eight years and then talk to me again. You have a problem with threat assessment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

Anyway I would probably also want to use more precise methods than bombing enemies and civilians alike.

At what cost? If I told you that you can kill a civilian and a terrorist without losses or kill just the terrorist and lose 100 of your friends, what will you choose?

If I told you that you can kill a civilian and a terrorist without losses or kill just the terrorist and lose ten of your friends, what will you choose?

Israel considers the cost and effect. In the recent war against Hezbollah Israel used infantry instead of air-strikes to reduce the risk of civilian casualties. We had a lot more losses in soldiers in these cases, but the price in civilian deaths (in Lebanon) was too high to just bomb the place.

If we didn't want to use more precise methods we wouldn't bother with a ground attack. We would have just bombed Gaza all over. It is much safer for our soldiers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

That is a very invalid point. Hamas doesn't have any claim, the civilians which are killed, wounded and driven from their homes do however.

You hear what you want to hear. The question was about the legality of Israeli actions. These actions are legal self defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFKain

You want me to find your arguments for you? I feel pretty sure that there is nothing to that effect stated in the Geneva convention, if you feel otherwise I encourage you to find it.

Miss quoting me is silly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

I will take the time to look for it later (I'm kinda busy now and I need to reformat my computer).
06-01-2009, 04:58
allonons

You people who quote others about the women and children please give me a break,I want identification ...lets see how many of these women and children are the family of the hamas terrorist....While thier husbands and fathers go hide in tunnels and bunkers they leave thier families home to die and pay the price for thier agressions.

It's sad but true,I wonder if the little virgins who die get 72 little virgins to play with in hamas heaven?

These people are filthy animals and the only thing to do with a dirty filthy rabid animal is to kill it and burn it's diseaed ridden carcass!
06-01-2009, 05:02
allonons

And stoffi, get off the crack pipe bro your starting to halucinate!
06-01-2009, 07:03
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

If the bus station has a military purpose (launching rockets) it is a military target.

Everywhere that Hamas situates its rockets and weaponry is a military facility.

If Israel would fire it's artillery from a city, would you call that a civilian target as well? Will you condone Hamas for targeting it?

Since the soldier at the bus station has a military purpose [firing bullets], then the soldier is a military target. So Israel is responsible for any civilian deaths that may happen when the soldier gets hit. Or that's what we get if we follow your logic.

Israel and it's oh-so-mighty military has the power to go in to the city, find the artillery and destroy it. Hamas does not have the power to go into Israel and do diddly-squat. And what's more important? The safety of your soldiers [who swore to protect their country and the purpose of their existence is to take care of such problems] or the safety of your civilians?

But of course, the question that inevitably pops up in the mind is this: are the lives of a few hundred Palestinian civilians more important than the lives of your own soldiers? And the answer to that, makes all the difference in the world.

EDIT:
allonons, when you quote all that about Israeli civilians dying, let's see how many of them have relatives in the Israeli Army. While they're off bombing the palestinians, their families are at home dying and paying the price for their aggression.

The argument can go both ways. And both ways are stupid. No law says you are to punish the child for his father's crimes.
06-01-2009, 07:46
WolfDGrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

You have a problem with threat assessment.

Most people who live in safe countries have that problem. They can't imagine how it is since they never felt it. That explains many people's blurbs and yapping trough the monitor while in the safety of his home. I bet that if a grenade would explode near their house every few days they would cure instantly and think about their lives in other ways.
06-01-2009, 08:45
Nemo

Who is that comment directed at, Wolf?
06-01-2009, 09:35
Attila

If you give isreal back to palestine i expect Australia to be given back to the Aboriginals.
The fact of the story is Religion = an amazing prestigious gobble of golden crap.
Israel did what they had to - to survive. That's the first instinct of any human being. Don't blame the brits blame hitler if anything.

Fact remains the country belong to a group of people who wish to live in peace, stop the resistance get on with your lives. Israel is a tiny block of land, arabs get over it and especially get over your fictional character bob.
06-01-2009, 10:08
Mourhelm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

Since the soldier at the bus station has a military purpose [firing bullets], then the soldier is a military target. So Israel is responsible for any civilian deaths that may happen when the soldier gets hit. Or that's what we get if we follow your logic.

A soldier in a bus station has no immediate military purpose besides getting home or to his base. He is not actively fires his weapon (and besides, many soldiers don't take their weapons home with them). Also, a gun is hardly a rocket that can reach Palestinian cities.

If a terrorist blows up a bus full of soldiers or drives a car through a bus stop filled with soldiers (as happened in the past near Israeli bases) it is a legitimate attack on the Israeli military. Sadly, Hamas mostly aims at civilian and by chance kills a few soldiers and not the other way around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

Israel and it's oh-so-mighty military has the power to go in to the city, find the artillery and destroy it. Hamas does not have the power to go into Israel and do diddly-squat.

Now I understand why I can't reach you. You think that Hamas can't do nothing and is no danger to Israel. I invite you to live a year in our bombed cities and get the feel of the "diddly-squat" that Hamas is doing.

Israel wants to stop the "diddly-squat" Hamas is doing, so it attacks their artillery by air strikes and ground forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

And what's more important? The safety of your soldiers [who swore to protect their country and the purpose of their existence is to take care of such problems] or the safety of your civilians?

The safety of our civilians of course. If we valued the life of our soldiers more than the life of our civilians, we wouldn't have sent our soldiers into Gaza where we know they are more likely to get hurt.

Hamas should have the same priorities and put its civilians in a safe place instead of hiding behind them.

If they had value for their own people's lives, Hamas would buy a few less rockets and build some shelters for its civilian population, for cases like this.

Sadly, I believe that even if they had shelters Hamas would have used them cynically as weapon depots as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

But of course, the question that inevitably pops up in the mind is this: are the lives of a few hundred Palestinian civilians more important than the lives of your own soldiers? And the answer to that, makes all the difference in the world.

It all depends on cost and effect. If Israel didn't value the lives of Palestinian civilians it would just keep air striking Gaza until there was nothing and no-one left.

After experts assess the risk for civilian and military casualties (according to intelligence) they make the decision of what kind of method to use (air strikes, artillery fire or ground attack).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

EDIT:
allonons, when you quote all that about Israeli civilians dying, let's see how many of them have relatives in the Israeli Army. While they're off bombing the palestinians, their families are at home dying and paying the price for their aggression.

As I understand, allonons's point was not that the families deserve to die, but that Hamas doesn't protect its people. The terrorists tell their families to stay in the danger zone so when they die Hamas could play the victim showing more civilian deaths.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

The argument can go both ways. And both ways are stupid. No law says you are to punish the child for his father's crimes.

I agree. Civilians should be kept away from the fighting. That's why Israel had to take action. Hamas has been targeting Israeli civilians for long enough (eight years!).

(Edit: rephrased an unclear sentence)
06-01-2009, 11:09
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by allonons

You people who quote others about the women and children please give me a break,I want identification ...lets see how many of these women and children are the family of the hamas terrorist....While thier husbands and fathers go hide in tunnels and bunkers they leave thier families home to die and pay the price for thier agressions.

It's sad but true,I wonder if the little virgins who die get 72 little virgins to play with in hamas heaven?

These people are filthy animals and the only thing to do with a dirty filthy rabid animal is to kill it and burn it's diseaed ridden carcass!

You ought to be locked up for opinions like this. I don't really have to say this, but you're a very, very sick person and you need to step out of your christian fanatic, racist world.
06-01-2009, 11:14
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

A soldier in a bus station has no immediate military purpose besides getting home or to his base. He is not actively fires his weapon (and besides, many soldiers don't take their weapons home with them). Also, a gun is hardly a rocket that can reach Palestinian cities.

How is then the hamas militant at home a legitimate target? He has no rockets on him, he is eating dinner, playing with his kids. Oh, I see. There are different rules for jews and lower races.

Tonight, Israel bombed a UN school and many refugees hiding there were killed and injured. Israel knew where this school was, and there were no Hamas there. UN runs the school, and they only accept civilians.

Also, today at 10:50 gmt+1, a new market place was bombed. Maybe the carrots looked like rockets, who knows.

That's 2 market places in 2 days bombed and tons of ppl slaughtered. Bombing market places and schools is nothing but terrorism.
Even if there was a Hamas member at that market place, Israel should not have bombed. USA is careful when fighting in Bagdad, ISrael doesn't care.
06-01-2009, 12:29
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Now I understand why I can't reach you. You think that Hamas can't do nothing and is no danger to Israel. I invite you to live a year in our bombed cities and get the feel of the "diddly-squat" that Hamas is doing.

Israel wants to stop the "diddly-squat" Hamas is doing, so it attacks their artillery by air strikes and ground forces.

I was answering your question where you ask:

"If Israel would fire it's artillery from a city, would you call that a civilian target as well? Will you condone Hamas for targeting it?"

I wouldn't condone Hamas targeting it, unless they sent in their infantry and took out the artillery embankments [suppose their situated in market places] and the people operating it, not bomb the civilians that might have been there to, oh, I don't know, buy potatoes.

I don't think Hamas has the power to start an offensive into what is considered to be Israeli soil. Israel does have the power to launch an offensive into Gaza and send in it's infantry.

Israel is supposed to be on the moral high horse, remember? Israel is not getting my approval, because in my eyes it's doing the same thing Hamas does, heedlessly killing civilians with airstrikes, and sugarcoating the pill with weapons depot talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

As I understand, allonons's point was not that the families deserve to die, but that Hamas doesn't protect its people. The terrorists tell their families to stay in the danger zone so when they die Hamas could play the victim showing more civilian deaths.

No. What he implied was that it's ok to kill civilians [women and children] as long as their family members are in Hamas. He wanted to see ID. He is the perfect example of an extremist. And as you said before, they exist on both sides of the border. It's just that in this scenario, this sort of stuff takes you by surprise.

As for sacrificing their families to play the victims, I think Israel is doing a fine job without the prompting.
06-01-2009, 14:05
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

I agree. Civilians should be kept away from the fighting. That's why Israel had to take action. Hamas has been targeting Israeli civilians for long enough (eight years!).

(Edit: rephrased an unclear sentence)

And yet if you look at the casualties on both sides, you will find HUUUUUGE civilian casualties on the palestinian side, while they are minimal on the Israeli side. If Hamas could, they would certainly try to match what Israel is doing, but we gotta deal with reality.
And the reality is that Israel targets palestinian civilians, or doesn't care if they are in the way. Israel kills, Hamas is a small buzzing fly compared to what Israel does.

You try to get sympathy for israeli citizens living in "fear". You don't know what fear is until you have lived in Gaza. You can hide in your bomb shelters while the rockets hit the deserts around you, you can go see a movie, go to the store, visit the hospital, use a welfare system.
The Palestinians can't do any of this. Every day, they live in EXTREME terror of being killed by seemingly random bombing by Israel. Every family has casualties, the children are utterly traumatized, 800-900 children are dead/injured during this week.

And the poor israelis complain about broken windows and splints in doors... They don't really get much sympathy when ppl see what they are doing to the palestinians. The palestinians would give anything to just have a few broken windows and some rockets in the desert. It would be a luxury for them.

So please don't tell us how much we need to feel sorry for israelis, you don't know what fear is.
06-01-2009, 16:25
Mourhelm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

I was answering your question where you ask:

"If Israel would fire it's artillery from a city, would you call that a civilian target as well? Will you condone Hamas for targeting it?"

I wouldn't condone Hamas targeting it, unless they sent in their infantry and took out the artillery embankments [suppose their situated in market places] and the people operating it, not bomb the civilians that might have been there to, oh, I don't know, buy potatoes.

What I understand you're saying is that if Israel would fire artillery fire on the Gaza strip, without aiming, from a city it will be OK. Hamas can't target it because it's a civilian target and civilian might be killed and they obviously won't survive a ground assault. Israel will be responsible for this kind of attack for sure, but no one in the world will say Hamas should do something about it - it is a civilian target after all.

I disagree with this completely. If you are being attacked you have a right for self defence.

Hamas and the Palestinians know these attacks may bring legitimate Israeli retaliation. They should have thought about it before hand and get their civilians into safety. Instead, they use the civilian population as shields for weapon depots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

I don't think Hamas has the power to start an offensive into what is considered to be Israeli soil.

They've been launching an offensive on Israeli soil for eight years now. If you think launching rockets is not offensive you shouldn't condone Israeli air strikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

Israel does have the power to launch an offensive into Gaza and send in it's infantry.

FYI, Israel sent infantry into Gaza. But if you think we do this for fun you're extremely wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

Israel is supposed to be on the moral high horse, remember? Israel is not getting my approval, because in my eyes it's doing the same thing Hamas does, heedlessly killing civilians with airstrikes, and sugarcoating the pill with weapons depot talk.

Don't hold back your suggestions on how to stop Hamas's threat without any losses (on either side).

If I knew a way to get zero losses on both sides, I would take it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

No. What he implied was that it's ok to kill civilians [women and children] as long as their family members are in Hamas. He wanted to see ID. He is the perfect example of an extremist. And as you said before, they exist on both sides of the border. It's just that in this scenario, this sort of stuff takes you by surprise.

I'm sure he'll explain what he meant.

I think that killing civilians (any, not only women and children) is wrong.

I also think that when you hit a military target, you can't guarantee zero civilian losses. It's impossible to guarantee it when the enemy (Hamas in this case) hides its military installations within civilian population and operates from within civilian population.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

As for sacrificing their families to play the victims, I think Israel is doing a fine job without the prompting.

As far as I know, none of the civilians killed on the Israeli side were inside the Gaza strip or in Israeli military installations. All were trying to find the nearest shelter and didn't try to sacrifice themselves.

Also, our military has ordered people to stay in shelters unless they must leave (for example, if their job is absolutely necessary). This order has saved many Israel children since some rockets hit a schools and kinder gardens. If Israel wanted to sacrifice it's population it wouldn't have issued that order.

Israeli civilians are victims of Hamas.

Palestinian civilians are also victims of Hamas, but Hamas presents it as if they are victims of Israel.
06-01-2009, 16:44
Mourhelm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoffi

And yet if you look at the casualties on both sides, you will find HUUUUUGE civilian casualties on the palestinian side, while they are minimal on the Israeli side. If Hamas could, they would certainly try to match what Israel is doing, but we gotta deal with reality

I know I said I'll ignore you, but this comment is so twisted I have to reply.

Israel protects its civilians in shelters and by this self defence military action. That is why Israel has few (relatively) civilian casualties. Israel also tries to avoid Palestinian casualties as well.

If Hamas had tried to match what Israel is doing you would see fewer civilian casualties on their side too. Sadly, Hamas doesn't try to match what Israel is doing. On the contrary, Hamas tries to increase Israeli civilian casualties and cynically using its own people as human shields instead of protecting them (by building shelters instead of weapon depots for example).
06-01-2009, 18:09
SnuggleySoft

If Cuba began sending rockets to America, then damn skippy I'd want us to bomb Cuban military sites.

Yes its a tragedy that civilians are dying. But thats just another reason to hate Hamas. Your acting how Hamas wants you too. They put their people in harm's way on purpose partly for PR. They believe the people killed are martyrs, so they don't really care. Its all for the cause. They just want to build outrage. I think Mourhelm has clearly stated why the attacks are a sad, but necessary, action very well.
06-01-2009, 21:29
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

I know I said I'll ignore you, but this comment is so twisted I have to reply.

Israel protects its civilians in shelters and by this self defence military action. That is why Israel has few (relatively) civilian casualties. Israel also tries to avoid Palestinian casualties as well.

If Hamas had tried to match what Israel is doing you would see fewer civilian casualties on their side too. Sadly, Hamas doesn't try to match what Israel is doing. On the contrary, Hamas tries to increase Israeli civilian casualties and cynically using its own people as human shields instead of protecting them (by building shelters instead of weapon depots for example).

The palestinian economy has collapsed long ago because of Israel. There is no economy. They cannot build bomb shelters because they have no resources. Yes, they buy new ammo, just like Israel gets new weapons INSTEAD of tending for the many, many poor ppl in Israel.(most of these are palestinians)
And where would the palestinians get the materials they need for building bomb shelters? And have you any idea how much that would cost?

Just earlier today, Israel bombed another UN school, a place where refugees came under protection of the UN. Israel didn't care, and bombed them. 30-40 ppl died, most of them children.
So don't tell us Israel doesn't bomb civilians, they really don't care who they bomb as long as it kills a palestinian.
Hamas also tries to kill civilians, no doubt. Hamas would kill lots more if they had the weapons to do it. I'm not trying to say Hamas are saints.
But let's face reality, Hamas hasn't killed loads of civilians, Israel has. 800-900 children dead/injured speaks for itself.
How can you support such actions???

USA fights a similar war in Iraq, an enemy who blends in with the civilian population. But they still avoid slaughtering thousands of civilians when they attack the enemy. The majority of the casualties are women and children in Gaza.
How can this be unless Israel tries to kill civilians?
06-01-2009, 21:51
SnuggleySoft

America kills/imprisons loads of iraqi innocents... But Iraq didn't bomb our civilians. So its bad imo.
06-01-2009, 22:51
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnuggleySoft

America kills/imprisons loads of iraqi innocents... But Iraq didn't bomb our civilians. So its bad imo.

Not compared to this.

Latest news is that Israeli Apache helicopters now target ambulances transporting wounded ppl. The islamic red cross reports that it has become difficult to send out ambulances, because they time after time come under heavy fire from IDF as soon as they leave the hospital to collect ppl.

Also, 3 danish, mobile field hospitals were bombed, despite them being marked with a red cross and all the needed symbols.

And 2 UN schools were also bombed, and dozens of children killed, and many more injured.

If Hamas had done this to Israel, it would surely have been called terror and Israel would have called out the world community. This no one can deny.
So how is this not terror?

Israel has always targetted the UN and international help organizations to get them away. During the Lebanon war, UN bases were bombed time after time to get them away, so they could not report what happened. This is a standard tactic from Israel. They don't want ppl to see what they are doing, and that is also why they bombed communication networks and why they have refused to let in journalists to Gaza for many months now, because they knew already then that this war would start, and they started it by bombing Hamas November 4th, forcing Hamas to respond after the cf was over.

All this is not something you can ignore, unless you are utterly blind from fanatical christianity or if you're a "we're chosen by God-jew".
06-01-2009, 22:53
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnuggleySoft

If Cuba began sending rockets to America, then damn skippy I'd want us to bomb Cuban military sites.

Yes its a tragedy that civilians are dying. But thats just another reason to hate Hamas. Your acting how Hamas wants you too. They put their people in harm's way on purpose partly for PR. They believe the people killed are martyrs, so they don't really care. Its all for the cause. They just want to build outrage. I think Mourhelm has clearly stated why the attacks are a sad, but necessary, action very well.

You said it, USA would bomb their military, not hospitals, schools, market places, universities, ambulances, civilians, etc. There were no Hamas anywhere near these targets.

And give me ONE single proof that Hamas puts civilians in harms way on purpose. It's a myth without proof. No civilian is forced to stay in the city, they don't have any place to run. They are already refugees and their borders are shut.

It's never necessary to kill/injure soon 1000 children. That's terror.
06-01-2009, 23:07
stoffi

Who was responsible for the occupation of Poland during WW2 and all their sufferings? Germany.
Who were responsible for the massacres during the warsawa rebellion? Germany. The ppl of Warsawa took up arms against their opressors, and tried to fight off the occupation. Many germans were killed, but in the end, Germany bombed them all to hell, much like Israel now bombs Gaza.

There is only one part to blame, the occupant. Israel created this situation by occupying Palestine. The occupant must leave and withdraw to their own borders, -67 lines.

Israel is an occupant, and Hamas along with PLO are fighting against occupation like most of europe during WW2. Germany called the resistance groups for terrorists, did you know that?
But there was only one part to blame, the occupant.
07-01-2009, 05:35
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

What I understand you're saying is that if Israel would fire artillery fire on the Gaza strip, without aiming, from a city it will be OK. Hamas can't target it because it's a civilian target and civilian might be killed and they obviously won't survive a ground assault. Israel will be responsible for this kind of attack for sure, but no one in the world will say Hamas should do something about it - it is a civilian target after all.

I disagree with this completely. If you are being attacked you have a right for self defence.

What I'm saying is that the target in that case would be filled with civilians. If you have the ability to lessen civilian losses by going in manually, you should do so, instead of bombing them and killing/injuring thousands. As I understand it, Israel has launched a ground attack on Saturday. There was no need to kill so many people with bombs when you could go in and neutralise the artillery sites. And while you're at it, you could engage Hamas face to face, just like you wanted, albeit with tanks on your side which would tarnish the glory slightly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

They've been launching an offensive on Israeli soil for eight years now. If you think launching rockets is not offensive you shouldn't condone Israeli air strikes.

I should have used the word "ground attack". Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Don't hold back your suggestions on how to stop Hamas's threat without any losses (on either side).

If I knew a way to get zero losses on both sides, I would take it.

There cannot be 0 losses. But there doesn't have to be thousands either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

As far as I know, none of the civilians killed on the Israeli side were inside the Gaza strip

I thought we decided to disagree on the boundaries. Anyway, I'll say again, I do not condone killing civilians, on either side.

Snuggleysoft:

Quote:

If Cuba began sending rockets to America, then damn skippy I'd want us to bomb Cuban military sites.

Send in the army, neutralise the rocket sites. If it's clean cut military site, feel free to bomb the place. If you feel there is a rocket stash under a school where a bunch of kids study, send the army, move the kids, and look for the ammo dump. Don't drop a bomb on them for Christ's sake. Be the good guys you say you are.
07-01-2009, 07:42
WolfDGrey

this thread is just hilarious :))
07-01-2009, 08:09
allonons

stoffi answer me this...

Do you agree if Israel wanted to it could completely wipe Gaza off the face of the earth?

Let me answer for you befor you start halucinating again ....YES!

And why do they not do it?

Because thier not terrorist or fanatics like Hamas ,oh but you say then they would be attacked for sure......by who?Who else is willing to get tatical nukes shoved up thier arses?Iran? Syria? I don't think so.

Your argument is weak and radical just like Hamas!

Go hide behind your mamas skirt.
07-01-2009, 10:10
Mourhelm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

What I'm saying is that the target in that case would be filled with civilians. If you have the ability to lessen civilian losses by going in manually, you should do so, instead of bombing them and killing/injuring thousands. As I understand it, Israel has launched a ground attack on Saturday. There was no need to kill so many people with bombs when you could go in and neutralise the artillery sites.

I invite you to join your nation's Intelligence corps. You might learn to assess risks. Attacking Hamas is not a walk in the park as you try to present it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

And while you're at it, you could engage Hamas face to face, just like you wanted, albeit with tanks on your side which would tarnish the glory slightly.

We are not looking for glory, we're looking for safety and to live without terror.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

I should have used the word "ground attack". Sorry.

So because Hamas doesn't have good ground forces it's legitimate for them to use artillery fire, but because Israel has good ground forces it's not legitimate for it to use artillery and air strikes?

If Israel didn't have a ground force, would you say that the air strikes are OK?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

There cannot be 0 losses. But there doesn't have to be thousands either.

Sadly, these are the minimal losses. If Hamas took care of its people, you would see a lot less casualties for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

I thought we decided to disagree on the boundaries.

The fact that you say that the territory given to Israel by the UN is actually Palestinian doesn't make Israeli civilians sacrifice themselves. They just want to live their lives in safety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

Anyway, I'll say again, I do not condone killing civilians, on either side.

Yes you do. You condone the killing of civilians on the Palestinian side, but on the other hand say it's fine for Hamas to target and kill Israeli civilians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemo

Send in the army, neutralise the rocket sites. If it's clean cut military site, feel free to bomb the place. If you feel there is a rocket stash under a school where a bunch of kids study, send the army, move the kids, and look for the ammo dump. Don't drop a bomb on them for Christ's sake. Be the good guys you say you are.

Hamas knows exactly where the civilians are trying to hide. Instead of going away from these places, to keep the civilians safe, they go as near as possible to these locations and use the civilians as human shields. They fire mortar shells on Israeli forces. The Israeli ground forces return fire to the source and then you blame them for the death of the civilians.

As I said before, the civilians in the Gaza strips are victims of Hamas. If Hamas cared about its people it wouldn't have used the civilians as human shields.
07-01-2009, 10:21
Mourhelm

Quote:

Originally Posted by allonons

stoffi answer me this...

...

Your argument is weak and radical just like Hamas!

Why do you even bother with him? You said it yourself, his argument is weak and radical.

He showed numerous times that what he wants is more blood shed, not less. But he wants it on the Israeli side.
07-01-2009, 10:41
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by allonons

stoffi answer me this...

Do you agree if Israel wanted to it could completely wipe Gaza off the face of the earth?

Let me answer for you befor you start halucinating again ....YES!

And why do they not do it?

Because thier not terrorist or fanatics like Hamas ,oh but you say then they would be attacked for sure......by who?Who else is willing to get tatical nukes shoved up thier arses?Iran? Syria? I don't think so.

Your argument is weak and radical just like Hamas!

Go hide behind your mamas skirt.

So you're saying USA should bomb entire villages/cities in Iraq because they COULD nuke the whole country if they wanted to?

Should the palestinians feel lucky because Israel doesn't kill them all?

And how come Israel bombed several UN schools? The UN has already denied that any Hamas were anywhere near, while Israel says they retaliated to Hamas fire from inside the school today. When did the UN lie? Never.
Israel on the other hand, has a long tradition of deception and lies.

I hope an investigation is opened and the ppl responsible are convicted in Haag.
07-01-2009, 10:47
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Why do you even bother with him? You said it yourself, his argument is weak and radical.

He showed numerous times that what he wants is more blood shed, not less. But he wants it on the Israeli side.

I want Israel to withdraw their settlers from the west bank, I want Israel to recognize a democratically elected government, I want Israel to stop keeping the citizens of Gaza in prison, while bombing them.

How on earth can you support this massacre?? It goes against all logic. hamas should stop sending rockets ofc, but it was Israel who provoked them into sending rockets, and it's Israel who are occupying the palestinians.
Israel must find better sollutions to their problems, Hamas offered peace and two states in 2007, but Israel refused to talk to the democratically elected government. This offensive has been planned for months already and has nothing to do with Hamas sending rockets again, that was just a bonus for israel, a reason to bomb.

So I ask you once again, how can you support the butchering of an entire ppl? Because Israel IS targetting civilians, or not caring if they are in the way. That's already been established at the UN, BBC, etc etc.

So how can you support terrorist actions like this?

And I may remind you I don't support Hamas sending rockets into Israel.
07-01-2009, 10:51
stoffi

Hamas tried peace, they had a CF with Israel, but what did they get from it? Gaza was worse than ever, being locked down by Israel with lack of food, fuel, medisines, no trade, nothing came trough. The palestinians achieved nothing from this CF because Israel does not want peace with Hamas. So the best thing Hamas could do, was to fight back. I certainly hope they target IDF soldiers/terrorists instead of civilians though.

Israel needs a new government, a government who doesn't want "lebensraum" and copy Hitlers dreams, it needs a government who treats palestinians like ppl, not maggots. A government who wants peace.
07-01-2009, 10:53
stoffi

And compared to all other conflicts, the civilian casualties are sky-high every time Israel fights. don't you find this weird? Other countries fight similar wars against an opponent who blends in with the civilian population, but they manage to avoid extreme civilian casualties.
But Israel seems to have problems doing this, even in southern lebanon when there was a minimum of civilian ppl left, they bombed everything that moved, even ambulances, and bombing ambulances has continued in this conflict, including hospitals, un schools, market places, etc. The typical terrorist targets.
07-01-2009, 11:49
WolfDGrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by stoffi

but they manage to avoid extreme civilian casualties.

That is same as your "casuality report", not true. You seem to foeget that both sides use propaganda.

85% of the caualities in post-WW2 wars are civilians.
07-01-2009, 13:23
Nemo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Yes you do. You condone the killing of civilians on the Palestinian side, but on the other hand say it's fine for Hamas to target and kill Israeli civilians.

Just because I'm arguing against what Israel is doing, doesn't mean I support Hamas. Just because I'm arguing against the killing of Palestinian civilians, doesn't mean I'm supporting killing Israeli civilians. That is a serious misconception.

However, should Hamas switch to hitting military targets, they'll have my full support. Why? In my views, Palestinians are in the right [it's their country], but Hamas is wrong [killing civilians, without giving it much thought]. If they switch to military targets, then they become freedom fighters.

Israeli's are in the wrong [they're on occupied territory], and what their military is doing is also wrong [killing civilians, saying they are giving it thought and then bombing heedlessly].

Since atm they're both wrong in one way or another, none of them have my support. Since Israel tried to be on the moral high horse, it got my criticism. If a Palestinian [or one of their supporters] creates a thread to applaud Hamas sending rockets into Israel, I would criticize him too. Those are my views and if you don't like it *shrug*

I have nothing more to say to you, since you've already assumed the worst of me.
07-01-2009, 16:06
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfDGrey

That is same as your "casuality report", not true. You seem to foeget that both sides use propaganda.

85% of the caualities in post-WW2 wars are civilians.

Not true. And this is not a regular war, this is an occupation, like when Soviet occupied east europe + others, it's an occupation in a way like Iraq, with the difference that the Iraqis originally welcomed USA(most of them).
Like in WW2 and other conflicts, the occupied country will always fight back. This has happened every time since homo sapiens came to be, ppl will fight back.

In Norway during WW2, 2 german officers were killed in a small norwegian town by the resistance. The germans responded by executing many males, and deporting the rest to consentration camps. The children and women were put elsewhere, and they burned down the town.
The germans blamed the local community for all this, the resistance had "forced" the germans to take revenge. Just like Israel now says it's Hamas' fault Israel is bombing civilians.

But that ain't correct... Both Germany and Israel had a choice, a choice to not slaughter innocent ppl and unleash a collective punishment on the civilian population. But Germany was like Israel, they claimed it wasn't their fault.

Israel CHOSE to act like this months ago, long before Hamas fired any rockets. Germany didn't plan this, so if we compare these two events, the germans were much nicer. And they even spared the women and children, that's something Israel can't claim to do.
07-01-2009, 16:10
stoffi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mourhelm

Why do you even bother with him? You said it yourself, his argument is weak and radical.

He showed numerous times that what he wants is more blood shed, not less. But he wants it on the Israeli side.

Stop putting words in other peoples mouth btw. I've seen you do it to many others here too.

Just for the record, you are the extremist, wishing civilians to die, closing your eyes for the crimes comitted. In Europe, we view most americans as pretty fanatic/extreme.
Remember that Hamas doesn't see themselves as extreme. They laugh at it just like you laugh at you being called extremist. But it's wise to listen to what ppl around you say, they act as a mirror to your actions and opinions.
USA is on the way to become a fanatic religious maniac state like Iran and others, where being an atheist is worse than being gay. Sick.
07-01-2009, 16:44
VT2

If I warred Israel, I'd shove dragons down their throats, while stealing all their peasants.

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