Don't make me use my mod stuff already, I'm still trying to figure out how all this stuff works =\
Please play nicely, for my sake =[
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Don't make me use my mod stuff already, I'm still trying to figure out how all this stuff works =\
Please play nicely, for my sake =[
I am being nice. You've seen me be not nice. Just making valid arguments about the topic at hand while also defending myself vs unwarranted personal attacks. :)
Calling someone arrogant isn't exactly going to invoke a pleasant response. And it wasn't only directed at you.
uhm if the attacks are personal they must feel there is reason for it...perhaps you make too much sense or logic confuses them. Luckily you aren't responsible for their feelings of your opinions, no matter how wrong you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by DHaran
The OP asked for us to rank them in order of power, so our debate originated in which is better: Halfer or Elf.Quote:
Originally Posted by caracal
@DHaran - You have no idea how happy that your post made me lol Maybe it's because my head hurts so bad that I can only see out of one eye, but I found that funny somehow :P
Real math against DHaran: (I grant this is all on a technicality, as the differences are minor. But I figured I might as well, since I had the calcs built.)
Homes% 10%
BE Sci 20%
Fixed NW (build+sci+pes) 73
PopSci 15%
Off/Def ratio 50% 50%
Target PPA 8
Target rWPA 1
Target rTPA (after race) 1
TGs 20%
Forts 10%
OME 1.076
DME 1.1298
____________Elf__Halfer
Off Point_____6___6
Off NW______5.5__5
Def Point_____6___5
Def NW______6___5
Pop Mod_____1___1.05
WPA mod____1____1
TPA mod____1____1.4
Sci Effect_1.049___1
Pop_____29.859___31.154
MPA_____19.891___21.439
Ospec%__49.05%__44.53%
Dspec%__50.95%__55.47%
OPA_____77.752___75.941
DPA_____77.752___75.941
NW/A___189.435___181.91
MPNW___0.821___0.835
%Max___94.22%__95.83%
Notice that these assumptions are generous to the Elf - only 1 raw TPA before race mod, 50/50 split offense defense (use that elf d-spec), and I added 10% sci to the Elf for FoK. The Elf, in this case, is actually putting out higher OPA/DPA numbers than the Halfling... but at the cost of a higher NW/A. While the difference is small (no +3 tpa claims here), you can see that the Elf loses out to the Halfer for military power, even when we try to stack in it's favor. (It is quite posible by fiddling those numbers a little bit to make Elf and Halfer have the same OPA/DPA, with that same NW difference in place - up offense%, drop sci, go to 1.5 WPA or TPA., etc.)
Which to pick? I've said again and again I see no reason for elf this age - but it does have cheaper units. I'd much rather someone go halfer though - gnome intel is a good boon, and halfer can run a decent A/T, while elf A/M looks very poor to me. Neither one of them makes the grade as top attackers, but if you are ranking them I don't see much difference, and would value the gnome intel over the cheeper units.
You are making more silly assumptions!! Why would Elf and Halfer both run 50/50 ratios when Elf can run more offense and maintain equal defense due to the 0/6 spec?? That's an illogical comparison which doesn't take into account the Elf def bonus being used to gain more offensive output without sacrificing defense.
Also it is completely unacceptable to look at pure numbers and ignore all else when comparing overall military strength. Troops costs and loss potential is a huge factor in the offensive/defensive power of a province and can not be ignored. Elf has a clear advantage in this area and it's just plain irresponsible to not bring it into a discussion when comparing the two.
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9519/hvse.png
What is not seen in the picture (I cropped the sheet): 1k acres, 100 bpa in Pop/BE/Thievery/Magic; 10% homes, 15% TG. Neither the spellbook, military costs/losses, income.
This example's target was 40 practical dpa (with MP). Tell me if you want other parameters.
And that's running equal TPA which wouldn't be the standard case. Nice visual Avenger.
Avenger I am sure you know this but the nw shold be 5 for halfling D specs shouldn't it? (1*D value)
Nice visual btw...
Nicely done. Elf's advantage isn't very pronounced there, but the higher the goal DPA the wider the margin will be. Personally, I think that 40 is a tad low since you'll be being double tapped by fellow hybrids/low opa provinces, so I prefer running closer to 45, that way it takes about 94 OPA from the attacker of same size to make the DT instead of 83.
Might be a minor typo, since I recently redesigned my little calculator from a single sheet into multiple ones for the Age50 update (based on race/personality combinations) - and I lost track of some values along the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by loco
LE: yep, thanks for pointing that out, the halfling had lower NW than expected :P
Agree that's a nice way of showing it - I'd try to make my own but the re-formatting would take a bit... and it's all locked up on my work comp, while I'm going skiing tomorrow.
It also shows much the same point I was making with my numbers - you left out a NW/A value. Despite the +5% pop, the halfer has at least 10 NW/A lower from elites... meaning the elf will have the higher NW/A. Thus, while the elf gets better OPA, it will have lower OPNW.
Re: 50/50 split - not units! I was splitting such that total mod offense = total mod defense. (Before generals) Normally I would use 60/40, as that is closer to the ratios I normally run, but I was trying to help the elf out some. (To thus show, even under favorable conditions, why halfer was better for pure military strength.)
I maintain that fixed DPA is unfair to low NW races, and that best practice should be to use a fixed DPNW. However, fixing DPNW is hard (self referencing equations yay!) so I use a pre-set split, and then sum the OPNW and DPNW to make MPNW (Military Per NetWorth), which is then a good approximation of military strength (at war start).
Econ - yes, econ/intangibles matter, and elf is better at that. Halfer intel is often +1-3% OME though, also a nice buff. As I set it up in mine, I'd take elf over halfer... but I made a lot of assumptions to help elf out, and it *still* lost on raw power coming in, though only by around 1.6%. But it would hold up better, and the small loss is worth it. But switch those raw wpa/tpa up to 1.5, and drop sci a bit, and go to the 60/40 off/def ratio I plan around... now Elf will look something like 4-6% worse MPNW than halfer. I don't like the elf econ *that* much, not when halfer gets some other nice stuff as well.
And of course as hybrids, halfer makes a good A/T, while Elf is a poor A/M, since it will so easily end up a/M instead if it makes sure to use the mana. But that is a side note when talking about attackers.
You are far too concerned with NW values.
On average in a war Halfling should have a better econ than an elf. The elf will have to replace elites while a properly played halfer will only have to train def specs.
Elf will have significantly fewer losses though, so they won't have to replace nearly as many losses as a Halfer would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danzig