The U (#4) v/s Settlers (#5)

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Originally Posted by Zauper

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It turns out that bullying a ghetto in an attempt to run from us doesn't work.

The excuses thus far --
'They robbed us and completely ruined our prep!' (aka they robbed 3M gc, under 3% of gc)
'They were going to wave us!' (aka they hit pale's kingdom and then agreed to war with Chrystal)
'They forced us to train up by refusing to give us land!' (aka Emeriti got greedy and wanted more than they could get with imminent conflict)

What Emeriti doesn't seem to realize is that Settlers waving them would have been a best case outcome for them. They would have gotten a farmwar vs a significantly weaker kd and added significant cow and t/m land at the cost of potentially some core acres. They're just upset that their gamble on baiting a farmwar from Settlers didn't occur.

There have been attempts to resolve this diplomatically, but it turns out that Emeriti would rather play martyr than accept that under the standards for play they helped create they have no leverage. So when they demand 1+ additional free waves on Settlers for a CF (wherein CR takes significantly less than we can/should), it doesn't go over very well.

So instead they get to gain the land they want from Settlers, and we get to gain probably 2x what we asked for. Maybe 3x.

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This is how i interpreted the conflict also.
Silly Emeriti

If you don't want to put in the effort to stock GC or whore to keep up, then why go through the effort of dodging and causing bad blood for when you do want to compete? Just take the loss and try again next age.

Theory/interpretation time here.

KD A and KD B have a notice deal.

Is it common courtesy/interpretation that if KD A notices KD B and KD B enters a hostile at any time before that notice ends, that notice is reset?

Is this different depending on who engages the hostile?

If KD C waves KD B I assume KD A would respect that KD B got waved.
But if KD B waves KD C does the same apply?

If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

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Originally Posted by flogger

If you don't want to put in the effort to stock GC or whore to keep up, then why go through the effort of dodging and causing bad blood for when you do want to compete? Just take the loss and try again next age.

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Well if they wanted to dodge CR and get a farm war, they needed to whore, but not get themselves too far out of range of the next tier of KDs below them.

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Originally Posted by Meep

Theory/interpretation time here.

KD A and KD B have a notice deal.

Is it common courtesy/interpretation that if KD A notices KD B and KD B enters a hostile at any time before that notice ends, that notice is reset?

Is this different depending on who engages the hostile?

If KD C waves KD B I assume KD A would respect that KD B got waved.
But if KD B waves KD C does the same apply?

If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

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I've managed to make it 20 ages without having to clarify any of this. If you're one of the best 2 kingdoms on the server, fight the other best kingdom on the server. Generally makes things easier. Also means you don't spend 3 months picking on people who you're much better than, and they tend to end up not disliking you.

http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/fil...76277_dump.gif

So when does everyone get to GB Emeriti?

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Originally Posted by flogger

I've managed to make it 20 ages without having to clarify any of this. If you're one of the best 2 kingdoms on the server, fight the other best kingdom on the server. Generally makes things easier. Also means you don't spend 3 months picking on people who you're much better than, and they tend to end up not disliking you.

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Well yes, in theory that works out great. Self-serving reality though, the disadvantaged KD in that situation isn't always going to want to take a loss.

I think most KD chasing the charts in both whoring and warring tiers, are more interested in gaining as much land as possible/winning as many wars as possible, as a priority over fighting their best available competition.

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Originally Posted by bombdigie

http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/fil...76277_dump.gif

So when does everyone get to GB Emeriti?

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Soon, but your KD has to have won a war to participate

No CR is not good to jump in because Settlers hit back a bunch. It is an active hostile until cf is ACCEPTED now. Those circumstances where someone can jump in only work if the kd they waved does nothing. Hitting and op'ing back complicates it immensely. For the circumstances I described to exists there has to be no hostile such as:

#1 KD being waved can't have hit back or op'd back at all. No hostile actions of any kind from 1 side.
#2 CF offer has to be on the table, preferably quick. In-game message about not being interested also doesn't hurt.
#3 KD waving leaves that cf on the table for a good long while. Like i stated before, timetable for how long is debatable.

There are, of course, other things that also help the cause such as after the kd gets waved they couldn't declare if they wanted to because they're out of war range, etc. but these 3 things are the most important.

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Originally Posted by Meep

Theory/interpretation time here.

KD A and KD B have a notice deal.

Is it common courtesy/interpretation that if KD A notices KD B and KD B enters a hostile at any time before that notice ends, that notice is reset?

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Never had this scenario arise since I've been playing again, but flogger told me of something called a 'reset clause' that they had to invent because proteus kept noticing kds before they entered conflict. I would assume that in that scenario, you would need a reset clause to avoid the notice.

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Is this different depending on who engages the hostile?

If KD C waves KD B I assume KD A would respect that KD B got waved.
But if KD B waves KD C does the same apply?

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It would be somewhat situational, but generally, I would expect any real conflict between top kds to be respected in that situation. I would expect that waving a ghetto would not be. A ghetto waving you probably would be.

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If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

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As that has happened historically, presumably the answer to this question is yes.

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It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

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Assuming that any of these things need to be stipulated rather than just known? :)

It seems to me like Emeriti, and jd in particular, should be aware of how this all works considering how exactly closely it mirrors the AMA-Havoc-Sanc situation a few ages back?

Except jd went and tried to rob a cow blind and got hit for it, AMA didn't just train up to wave a ghetto. So... it's much clearer.

Hell, earlier this age Emeriti waved a kd that had just ~10h prior done a full hostile wave on a different kingdom. Really no reason for them to not know what's going to happen.


[09:30:52] <zapanap> .kdecon
[09:30:53] <munkbot> We have: 94k acres | 14,631k nw | tpa+wpa+sci 2,180k nw | 654k peons | 809k units (+1,036k solds) | 2,880k income (962k TOG) | 529k wages | 607,463k gc | 1,720k runes | 7,651k food
[09:30:53] <zapanap> .kdeconwar
[09:30:54] <munkbot> They have: 80k acres | 13,007k nw | tpa+wpa+sci 1,985k nw | 775k peons | 1,065k units (+56k solds) | 4,155k income (1,251k TOG) | 1,207k wages | 31,261k gc | 1,242k runes | 5,738k food

If they don't want a diplo solution, hard to blame anyone but them.

Lol emeriti never came to us for cf, I approached them and was turned down.

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Originally Posted by Meep

If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

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Yes due to stupid precedents set by ppl like Binnie the Poo and jdorje.

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Originally Posted by Meep

It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

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No need for such stipulation, it depends on how generous KD A feels. It's too easy to have a friend wave you to void notice for there to be a general clause that resets if you get waved.

http://goodmanrealtyproperties.com/w...man_cometh.jpg

http://www.roanokefreepress.com/wp-c.../08/Taxman.jpg

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Originally Posted by Meep

So if Settlers stops hitting, sends a CF, and waits 12 hours, CR is free to jump in?

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YES! jdorje helped make that precedent together with goodz, seems like (awesome) karma that he should be forced to suffer it.

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Originally Posted by Pale

No CR is not good to jump in because Settlers hit back a bunch. It is an active hostile until cf is ACCEPTED now. Those circumstances where someone can jump in only work if the kd they waved does nothing. Hitting and op'ing back complicates it immensely.

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Nope, go ask jdorje, he helped to make the precedent that fighting back until meter is maxed and then doing nothing for 12/24h makes the hostile protection NULL. Therefore the circumstances you mention don't exist, especially not for Emertiti, even though they'd be sensible precedents tell us that's not how it works.

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Originally Posted by Pale

#1 KD being waved can't have hit back or op'd back at all. No hostile actions of any kind from 1 side.

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Nope, they're free to fight back for however long they can then just quit attacks(not neccessarily ops) for 12/24h and then the waving kd is FFA to wave, that's jdorjes precedent.

This thread truly shows how retarded this game has come with the war win bonus completely ruining this game into the trash that we get to see in this thread.

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Originally Posted by bombdigie

This thread truly shows how retarded this game has come with the war win bonus completely ruining this game into the trash that we get to see in this thread.

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Not just WW bonus, tho that shifted things even more. Top kd wars have been like this since raze was changed(before that war was pretty much an instant age loss to any kd who got dragged into war as I remember unless scales were VERY much in favor of one kd). before ww bonus tactical WD used to be a big thing but that had issues too.

The only thing that kept things moderately civilized was the Abs v aAbs terror balance, but that's long gone-

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Originally Posted by bombdigie

This thread truly shows how retarded this game has come with the war win bonus completely ruining this game into the trash that we get to see in this thread.

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War win bonus is everyone's bonus. It's the diplo.


Word up, Elldallan ^

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Originally Posted by bombdigie

This thread truly shows how retarded this game has come with the war win bonus completely ruining this game into the trash that we get to see in this thread.

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This situation has nothing to do with war wins or razes or anything like that. Both kd's have known we would be warring for 2 weeks. Both kd's had the ability to get cf's and prep. Indeed, both kd's did get most of the cf's and they were sci pumping/pooling for quite a long time. Based on the sims I did of Emeriti throughout those two weeks they could have prepped such that they would have a 10-15% deficit in military(basically the kd size difference) mostly made up by having more wpa. In order to do this they had to stop getting sci a MINIMUM of two days before they put in gs and went fort. They could have stopped 3 days prior and the trade for mpa would have still been favorable over the sci they generated.

What happened was that they did not prep for a big -1 to -3ppa fight and did not get WT to help against war kd's stealing stock(probably because they had none!). When they realized that they were a minimum of two days behind in stock they rushed to figure out cf situations with someoen they had to cf earlier for stocking(and who offered a cf) and then realized they could maybe just dodge the war with us all together. Since Settlers doesn't/didn't want to war, this attempt made it even worse for them.

I'm fine with people saying that this shows a lack of strategic prowess at the top of the game, but this is not some issue stemming from ghetto creep or anything like that. This was an opportunity for a fun war based on preparation that both kd's had been making since preage(for example when we decided to have less provinces that would require pool). Unfortunately, one kd failed to properly prep and then instead of either making the best of the situation and pumping enough to war or make cf's(they had offers from settlers that still gave emeriti land, despite the fact that emeriti should have cf'd for free a week ago) they instead doubled down on making things messy.

edit: I would also add that really their best bet when they logged on 2-3 days late and realized they had poor prep would be to start prepping and pray that their one loose cf waved them, since that would be the only way to actually dodge us and then have 6 days to prep after the ww.

CR was in a strong position to bully us, not because of gc prep (ours was fine) but because they were 20% larger. Same as they have bullied every kingdom for acres all age, but of course since they see us as the competition they would want 18k acres instead of 5k.

However, this has nothing to do with what went down / is going down between us and Settlers. Snowballz dodged our cf talks for days until the point we were fully convinced we were hours from being waved. At this point we simply trained up and waved him.

CR had many ways to profit from this situation without resorting to dirty play. You could have told Settlers to CF us. You could have waited and vultured us after the fight, same as you have done with every other top-20 war this age. Either way would have put you in exactly the position you seem to want.

Instead you told Settlers to ignore us, knowing that we couldn't ignore them back and would be forced to train early. You told them to retal and soften us up after you noticed us into the hostile. And presumably you will tell them to hold hits so that you can double-team us later. You've bragged about how many top leaders you have, but the sloppiness of this double-team makes me question that.

Finally, for the last time, I had nothing to do with the the practice of double-teaming a kingdom by offering in-game ceasefire. Go do research before you completely change history. The time we waved BB this age was a few hours after they did a few hits on a kingdom we were already hitting...should we have kept hitting that kingdom and double-teamed them? The time we waved CP they agreed to war us, but calle didn't want that war so he suicided into ED to try to get a dodge war...after CP spent all day not-very-active in diplomacy, we waved them on the hour they had asked us to wave them and gave them a long ceasefire for a single ~4800 acre wave.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

CR was in a strong position to bully us, not because of gc prep (ours was fine) but because they were 20% larger. Same as they have bullied every kingdom for acres all age, but of course since they see us as the competition they would want 18k acres instead of 5k.

However, this has nothing to do with what went down / is going down between us and Settlers. Snowballz dodged our cf talks for days until the point we were fully convinced we were hours from being waved. At this point we simply trained up and waved him.

CR had many ways to profit from this situation without resorting to dirty play. You could have told Settlers to CF us. You could have waited and vultured us after the fight, same as you have done with every other top-20 war this age. Either way would have put you in exactly the position you seem to want.

Instead you told Settlers to ignore us, knowing that we couldn't ignore them back and would be forced to train early. You told them to retal and soften us up after you noticed us into the hostile. And presumably you will tell them to hold hits so that you can double-team us later. You've bragged about how many top leaders you have, but the sloppiness of this double-team makes me question that.

Finally, for the last time, I had nothing to do with the the practice of double-teaming a kingdom by offering in-game ceasefire. Go do research before you completely change history. The time we waved BB this age was a few hours after they did a few hits on a kingdom we were already hitting...should we have kept hitting that kingdom and double-teamed them? The time we waved CP they agreed to war us, but calle didn't want that war so he suicided into ED to try to get a dodge war...after CP spent all day not-very-active in diplomacy, we waved them on the hour they had asked us to wave them and gave them a long ceasefire for a single ~4800 acre wave.

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ok.

How many pages can we drama about things that have nothing to do with The U vs. Settlers before Pam gets mad and makes us use a new thread.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

CR was in a strong position to bully us, not because of gc prep (ours was fine)

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Because people i like hold you in such high regard I had assumed this whole mess was you being inactive, but now it seems that it's just you being some combination of bad and delusional.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

Instead you told Settlers to ignore us

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There are a lot of accusations in that post. The crazy thing is you seem so sure about what you're saying. All this talk from you all saying I was ignoring CF talks or whatever simply isn't true. I never ignored you, I just wasn't telling you what you wanted to hear. Actually Jdorje I don't believe we've even spoke.

I wasn't ready to accept a deal to give you land for a CF in the manner that you proposed it which was very brash. Sorry if I don't respond well to someone who I don't even know messaging me on IRC essentially saying "Give me acres."

We wanted to find a war with someone else so you all were not our priority. In retrospect sure, that's a mistake. But for you all to think that we were gearing up to wave you is pretty asinine. All you had to do was ask. But instead you spent your gc and "prepped" thinking that my little ghetto was going to wave you. So you waved us. This after it was clear we had a war agreement with 3:10. That's fine, you have your right to wave.

Anyway, all these rules are pretty lame IMO. But I understand you all up at the top have your way of doing things. I have my own way of doing things as well in certain situations. In the end though the decisions that have been made by Settlers have been decisions thought out by the leadership team to the best of our knowledge. I mean I like CR because everyone I've dealt with there have been cordial but they are not pulling our strings.

And hell, this turned into a pretty fun experience. After all that is the point of this, right?

#BB4crow

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Originally Posted by jdorje

CR was in a strong position to bully us, not because of gc prep (ours was fine) but because they were 20% larger. Same as they have bullied every kingdom for acres all age, but of course since they see us as the competition they would want 18k acres instead of 5k.

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You're right, your inability to draft deep doesn't give us an advantage at all. (hint: you're wrong). Sure, being bigger didn't hurt either. Nor did our superior pool use, which goes back to both our prep and gc advantage. You were focused on buying science, we were focused on preparing for war. We haven't actually bullied anyone for acres all age, unlike you. But yes, actual competition we would want more land from in order to CF, as is only reasonable. We're not like you, who prefer to focus on farming ghettos.

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However, this has nothing to do with what went down / is going down between us and Settlers. Snowballz dodged our cf talks for days

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To verify: You're saying that offering you a CF was dodging your CF talks? Or that your refusal to CF him for less than acres was him dodging your CF talks?

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until the point we were fully convinced we were hours from being waved. At this point we simply trained up and waved him.

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So you initiated conflict with a ghetto to dodge us at this point.

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CR had many ways to profit from this situation without resorting to dirty play. You could have told Settlers to CF us.

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As we are not Settlers, and nor are we allied with Settlers, how would we have known about your CF situation? We didn't know you didn't have a CF until after you went fort, at which point we told sn0wballz that you were clearly planning to dodge us by waving him.

Had they asked us, we certainly would have told them to CF you. However, they were already offering you a CF. So unclear what you are looking for here. Free acres? Why exactly did you think the situation merited free land? Because you could have trained up to attempt to dodge us and wave them? Well, unfortunately, that didn't work out for you did it?

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You could have waited and vultured us after the fight, same as you have done with every other top-20 war this age. Either way would have put you in exactly the position you seem to want.

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We haven't vultured anyone, and you don't even believe vulturing exists. Interesting contradiction. (We also haven't hit or diploed for acres with anyone after the vast majority of t20 wars -- for example: yours, EDs, BBs, pyro-pandas, pandas-apoc, cJ (who you guys vultured?), etc)

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Instead you told Settlers to ignore us, knowing that we couldn't ignore them back and would be forced to train early.

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We told them? You ignored their CF offer. You chose to train. Still don't understand why you did that, except, oh yeah -- you wanted to farm a ghetto.

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You told them to retal and soften us up after you noticed us into the hostile. And presumably you will tell them to hold hits so that you can double-team us later. You've bragged about how many top leaders you have, but the sloppiness of this double-team makes me question that.

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I haven't bragged about having top leaders. We didn't tell them to retal you, and you weren't hostile when we gave notice. Yes, they will hold hits so that we can wave you after your hostile ends. It's your play, you invented it. You shouldn't find it dirty.

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Finally, for the last time, I had nothing to do with the the practice of double-teaming a kingdom by offering in-game ceasefire. Go do research before you completely change history.

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AMA-Sanc-Havoc? You weren't involved there?

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The time we waved BB this age was a few hours after they did a few hits on a kingdom we were already hitting...should we have kept hitting that kingdom and double-teamed them? The time we waved CP they agreed to war us, but calle didn't want that war so he suicided into ED to try to get a dodge war...after CP spent all day not-very-active in diplomacy, we waved them on the hour they had asked us to wave them and gave them a long ceasefire for a single ~4800 acre wave.

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I'm somewhat skeptical that CP asked you wave into hostile, but those are details I didn't know.


p.s. some choice posts by jdorje:

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Mom didn't ask us for a ceasefire. They were sitting with 300m gc on 0 thieves. Just days ago, they targetshared havoc to the server for sitting on 0 thieves on cows, resulting in dozens of kingdoms robbing havoc. So, it was a complete no-brainer for us to rob that guy.

Waving us to dodge havoc is probably not going to work out in the long term, but should be fun for both kingdoms in the meantime.

** The kingdom of Sanc **
Total land exchanged: +3,313 (13/17)

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(note: Settlers had asked for a CF).

Hey Dorje, how did you arrange it so that Havoc could get in and sanc out?

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The real question is why did Mom not make any attempt to ceasefire Sanc, when they knew an incoming notice from Havoc was on the table? Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us. But now the only thing I can come up with is that mom intended to stand by the ludicrous/debunked "havoc can't notice us until we ceasefire Sanc" argument.

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Again: Settlers had offered a CF. Emeriti waves Settlers to avoid CR's notice.

ASF's advice for Emeriti:

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Elit, When you're noticed by Havoc and when you're preparing for and fighting Havoc, why won't you just cf Sanc? You claim you played better but if you really were so good, you'd have just fought Havoc 1v1 instead of trying to use Sanc to dodge them and now mass opping another kingdom out of your ongoing hostile.

Smart play means avoiding putting yourself in situations to be doubled. You on the other hand intentionally put your kingdom in situations to be doubled because you would rather whine about a double than risk losing a 1v1 fight.

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AMA had two opportunities to fight Havoc 1v1 with a clear win in either case likely putting them in secure position to win the age. Instead both times Elitbg chooses to try and bring in Sanc instead of cfing them. You might have a case for blaming Sanc if it wasn't for the fact that Sanc keeps trying to cf Elitbg to let Havoc and him fight 1v1, but Elitbg keeps refusing to cf them.

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(I wonder why you guys keep claiming Settlers was dodging CF talks when they told you all along they were happy to CF?)

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Yes, it's unfortunate you didn't just cf sanc instead of try and use them as a reason to deny Havoc's notice. If Sanc was cf'd, like any kingdom in your position who wasn't trying to dodge Havoc would have done, then there wouldn't have been any issues. I agree that Sanc should not have robbed you even though they felt it was obvious you were preparing to wave them to dodge Havoc.

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This is what I keep asking him. Why oh why didn't he just cf Sanc and fight havoc 1v1 when he knew havoc was going to notice him. The answer seems to be that the pressure got to him and he didn't have your guidance to lead him to the crown. I'm sure he was under a lot of stress. What if havoc beat him 1v1? I guess in his mind, he thought the road to the crown was to not cf Sanc during post war and use that as an excuse to try and deny Havoc's right to notice him so he could use his pool and get out of range of havoc having any chance against them.

But you're right, the keys and the road to the crown was right in front of him. All he needed to do was cf Sanc and beat Havoc in a war and the crown was his. But people crack under pressure and make dumb decisions all the time. If only he had your hand on the wheel.

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One other thing to add. While I agree Sanc robbing some gold from Elit was dumb, I think that was mainly a convienient way for Elit to justify dodging havoc but I think his actions would have been exactly the same even if Sanc didn't rob anything. That was the whole reason he never cf'd sanc when he knew havoc was noticing him. Also, if say Rage were to get notice from someone and then got robbed some (perhaps by TFC or SPGC or whoever else), and say Rage didn't want to fight the kingdom who noticed them, would you also accept that it was perfectly justified for Rage to instead wave TFC or whoever to dodge the notice? We've been noticed a lot and almost every single notice we've gotten robbed by someone. Should it really be that easy to always have a valid way to dodge the notice?

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I'm not trying to say this was one sided and Abs was completely in the right and Elit completely in the wrong. I'm just saying that things would have been much less complicated if Elit just cf'd sanc in post war when Havoc warned him they would notice once he was out of post war. Instead he mistakenly thought that not cfing them would prevent Havoc from giving a valid notice and that led to problems for all.

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As we all know, there is an unwritten code of honor in the game that has been established, in part at Absalom's promotion of it, to let kingdoms fight fair 1v1 fights. There is nothing about this in the rules and the game initially actually didn't even have any protections or mechanisms to even discourage "non 1v1 play" but these were put in with time mainly at the request of players.

It has never been my belief that "honorable play" was intended to allow kingdoms to dodge such 1v1 fights yet over time this has frequently been exactly the case. Early ages you'd have to be an idiot to wave some other kingdom when you knew another was about to wave you. You would only expose yourself to the one about to wave and receive no protections at all.

After it became widely accepted to let kingdoms fight 1v1, many kingdoms realized "Hey, that kingdom over there that might beat us says they are about to wave us. Let's quick wave some other kingdom and tell them that they are dishonorable if they wave us like they said they were about to."

This was then extended into, "Let's also say we'll never cf the smaller kingdom we waved so that no one can ever wave us without being called dishonorable! We can even explore and pump while having imaginary protection form anyone touching us that we didn't choose ourselves to wave!"

If this mentality is never broken, kingdoms can be impossible for anyone to ever wave all age. A kingdom could keep a semi active ghetto hostile up all age, or simply get notice deals in place and then just initiate said hostile whenever notice is recieved and refuse to ever end it unless they get new notice deals. You can also go straight from one hostile to another, always choosing who you wave and ensuring they are an easy match. No kingdom can ever initiate with you.

1v1 play was never intended to be a means to dodge fair fights and without kingdoms sometimes following through and waving as they said they would, then kingdoms will continue to keep waving someone else whenever they get notice by a kingdom they didn't want to fight. Certainly a line has to be drawn somewhere on this behavior even if you might not agree that this was an appropriate place to draw the line. Havoc felt it was and in this case that is where the decision rested.

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Why not describe the wrongs using specific descriptions rather than catch phases? Clearly you want the word hostile, which it was, but I'll instead paste another ingame message that is descriptive of their relation at the time:

April 2 of YR8 Sanctuary of Absalom () has proposed a formal ceasefire with our kingdom.

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tl;dr? You're wrong, jdorje.

Technically you bullied us hard... you found weakness after we had been waved and went fully bully.

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Originally Posted by bombdigie

Technically you bullied us hard... you found weakness after we had been waved and went fully bully.

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You refused to CF us.

Emeriti: Was there a CF on the table with Settlers or not? It's looking an awful lot like there was. Looks to me like a free CF offer.

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[13:42:18] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:20] <Mithras> You are not very likely to reply at all, are you?
[13:42:18] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:29] <sn0wballz> this was the first message i have seen
[13:42:18] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:29] <sn0wballz> hows it goin?
[13:42:18] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:30] <Mithras> Pmed you both ingame and on the phone nick you suggest in your away messege :)
[13:42:19] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:31] <Mithras> and things are going fine
[13:42:20] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:31] <Mithras> How about you?
[13:42:21] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:43] <sn0wballz> oh, sorry about that.. im doing well.
[13:42:22] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:43] <sn0wballz> so you think we will cf soon? not sure why we would need to leave it open
[13:42:23] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:44] <sn0wballz> you all are looking to crown, we are just looking to stay top 10
[13:42:24] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:44] <Mithras> We are open for a cf
[13:42:25] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:44] <sn0wballz> under what terms?
[13:42:26] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:45] <Mithras> It was diskussed at length with elixer
[13:42:27] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:45] <Mithras> Did he mention anything?
[13:42:28] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:45] <sn0wballz> yeah i think he mentioned you all wanted land
[13:42:29] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:45] <Mithras> yes
[13:42:30] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:45] <sn0wballz> at first it was something i considered but atm i dont think we need to do that
[13:42:31] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:46] <Mithras> Ok
[13:42:32] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:46] <Mithras> Lets have a war then :)
[13:42:33] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:47] <sn0wballz> Unfortunately I have never met you, so our relationship isnt exactly good. That doesnt mean it is bad, just means we should probably get to know each other.
[13:42:34] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:47] <sn0wballz> have you seen the size difference in our kd's lol. how could we possibly have a fair war
[13:42:37] <Sn0wballz> [0928:22:48] <Mithras> I don't really mind
.....[long break because wall of text].....
[13:43:03] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:05] <Mithras> Nobody is asking you to give up anything for free. But if you find that you want the cf then that is the deal I'm offering
[13:43:05] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:07] <sn0wballz> so... you arent asking for free land?
[13:43:06] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:10] <Mithras> Acres for cf is the term most used
[13:43:07] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:10] <Mithras> If you want to say that I'm selling a cf or asking for free land you may use the term you prefere
[13:43:09] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:10] <Mithras> I will not mind
[13:43:10] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:11] <sn0wballz> Just doesnt't seem fair for both of us though.. You get a CF from us and land, We just get CF
[13:43:12] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:11] <Mithras> We are fine with no cf
[13:43:13] <Sn0wballz> [0928:23:11] <sn0wballz> cf for cf seems fair to me

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The transition from "we are fine with no cf" to "OH **** THIS GHETTO IS GOING TO TOTALLY DESTROY US, WE NEED TO TRAIN UP NOW AND CAN'T FIGHT CR ANYMORE" is also interesting.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

CR was in a strong position to bully us, not because of gc prep (ours was fine) but because they were 20% larger. Same as they have bullied every kingdom for acres all age, but of course since they see us as the competition they would want 18k acres instead of 5k.

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So 5k from 80k is what you'd offer yet you (leshrak) asked for 3k from our wat, 27-30k? Lol

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Originally Posted by jdorje

The time we waved BB this age was a few hours after they did a few hits on a kingdom we were already hitting...should we have kept hitting that kingdom and double-teamed them?

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You made 2 random hits, we started a wave for war.
Funny how you forget to mention you waved us 4h after our wave on them started.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

You refused to CF us.

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I don't really know the details but did that CF have bully attachments?

CP3 :U know something big is going on when all the absalom superstars start posting in the forum
zapanap: that's why i posted them
CP3: its usually pollitical difusement attempt
lonelyghost: whose the abs superstar
CP3: ASF will post soon
CP3: it will be a monster post!
CP3: :P
lonelyghost: wheres asf playing now
CP3: like im thinking 4 pages long post :P
zapanap: lol cp3

I'm pretty sure Emeriti sends Mithras to do diplo when they're not really interested in getting anything accomplished and just want to stall you. It took me 1 hour to get an initial offer out of him, and only after I complained to ASF about his presence, when it would take a normal human being about 2-3 lines of exchange. I'm fairly confident that if snowball actually accepted giving land for CF, he would have continued to move the goal post until terms fell through and then Emeriti can say "hey we offered CF."

To put it into perspective, it took about 5 mins with jdorje to agree on principle for a CF.

For the publics sake it'd be nice if you guys would fly your colors in your posts. Just say where you're from.

Example - " I'm pyromaniac jack, and I got somethin' to say! "

Thank you very much :-)

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Originally Posted by Zauper

You refused to CF us.

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After attempting and failing to resolve the issue yesterday, I was given this about 1:30 CST.

"<Sn0wballz> okay so. You all are still up around 6k acres. I am willing to accept a CF now until EOA with no further hits from you. Also you cancel your dragon. I offer this because we are going to continue to NS as many solds as we can while also destroying/stealing as much GC from you as we can. I don't want to have to do that - I think you all need that stuff for CR's impending arrival."

Please tell me again there isn't a 2v1 here. Please tell me these guys deserve a free cf.

<sn0wballz> so you think we will cf soon? not sure why we would need to leave it open
<sn0wballz> you all are looking to crown, we are just looking to stay top 10
<Mithras> We are open for a cf
<sn0wballz> under what terms?
<Mithras> It was diskussed at length with elixer
<Mithras> Did he mention anything?
<sn0wballz> yeah i think he mentioned you all wanted land
<Mithras> yes
<sn0wballz> at first it was something i considered but atm i dont think we need to do that
<Mithras> Ok
<Mithras> Lets have a war then :)

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Originally Posted by Zauper

Looks to me like a free CF offer.

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How do you get that to a free cf offer? It is clearly stated that they are asking us for a cf. We are asking for either acres for cf or a fight.

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Originally Posted by Chris_Keeling

After attempting and failing to resolve the issue yesterday, I was given this about 1:30 CST.

"<Sn0wballz> okay so. You all are still up around 6k acres. I am willing to accept a CF now until EOA with no further hits from you. Also you cancel your dragon. I offer this because we are going to continue to NS as many solds as we can while also destroying/stealing as much GC from you as we can. I don't want to have to do that - I think you all need that stuff for CR's impending arrival."

Please tell me again there isn't a 2v1 here. Please tell me these guys deserve a free cf.

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If it's a 2v1 it's your own fault. I simply know what is in store for you. Hell, anyone reading this thread knows it because it has been stated what is going to happen. Surely don't fault me for using that in trying to get you all to finally move on from us.

Also, nice try mass messaging my entire Kingdom with your silly propaganda. A ghetto like tactic if I may say so. Perhaps you should post some of the responses? I'd love to hear what my teammates think of me.

Zauper is taking JD behind the woodshed #NoSpinZone

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Originally Posted by Mithras

<sn0wballz> so you think we will cf soon? not sure why we would need to leave it open
<sn0wballz> you all are looking to crown, we are just looking to stay top 10
<Mithras> We are open for a cf
<sn0wballz> under what terms?
<Mithras> It was diskussed at length with elixer
<Mithras> Did he mention anything?
<sn0wballz> yeah i think he mentioned you all wanted land
<Mithras> yes
<sn0wballz> at first it was something i considered but atm i dont think we need to do that
<Mithras> Ok
<Mithras> Lets have a war then :)



How do you get that to a free cf offer? It is clearly stated that they are asking us for a cf. We are asking for either acres for cf or a fight.

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Ah, here comes the Emeriti spin.

Let's refresh, everyone.
Step 1: "We had to train up, they refused to CF us and were robbing us for 50-100M, ruining our prep"
Dorje comes in -- 'oops, it was closer to 3M'
Step 2: "They were clearly going to wave us, they refused to CF us, they forced us to train up!"
Settlers waved other kds and agreed to war with Chrystal.
Settlers had offered Emeriti a CF.
Step 3: "Well, when we said they refused to CF us, we mean they weren't willing to give us LAND"
Okay hoss. You aren't entitled to land, you have to be able to take it. Your decision to dodge because you couldn't get free land is on you. You can't claim they made you train up -- they were offering you a CF. A CF with no consequences to you, even. You just wanted more.

Oh, one more thing Mithras? This statement:

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How do you get that to a free cf offer? It is clearly stated that they are asking us for a cf.

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Is uhh.. yeah. They are asking for a CF. And you guys are claiming that they were refusing to CF you. So something is at odds. Either they were willing to CF or they weren't. And it seems like everyone can agree that they were. So it must, then, be you who was not.


CK: That post was in response to bombdigity, who is in pyro and they refused to CF us.

The situation now is quite different from the situation prior you guys going full retard. I think we net-gained 600a from Settlers, and lost 500 cow acres in the process for our CF. A free CF while you're in the midst of prepping for conflict is not unreasonable or unexpected.

Everyone knows what's going to happen, we're just all waiting for the inevitable. They know it and you know it. Pretending otherwise is dumb, and pretending that your fight with a ghetto protects you is equally so. To quote ASF -

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After it became widely accepted to let kingdoms fight 1v1, many kingdoms realized "Hey, that kingdom over there that might beat us says they are about to wave us. Let's quick wave some other kingdom and tell them that they are dishonorable if they wave us like they said they were about to."

This was then extended into, "Let's also say we'll never cf the smaller kingdom we waved so that no one can ever wave us without being called dishonorable! We can even explore and pump while having imaginary protection form anyone touching us that we didn't choose ourselves to wave!"

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Conveniently, that's exactly what you've attempted to do by trying to dodge.

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Originally Posted by sn0wballz

If it's a 2v1 it's your own fault.

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We waved you because you refused the CF offered and prefered to fight. You still refuse to CF after we engaged and now you are calling in CR. Tell me again how that is our fault?

We offered you a decent CF for 5k acres so we could get that done before our fight with CR. You stalled for a long time and forced us to train up and engage if we ever was to get it done before our fight with CR. And then you stall some more because you are preparing to have CR come to your aid while you deliberatly sabotage our position for a future conflict

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Originally Posted by Mithras

We waved you because you refused the CF offered and prefered to fight. You still refuse to CF after we engaged and now you are calling in CR. Tell me again how that is our fault?

We offered you a decent CF for 5k acres so we could get that done before our fight with CR. You stalled for a long time and forced us to train up and engage if we ever was to get it done before our fight with CR. And then you stall some more because you are preparing to have CR come to your aid while you deliberatly sabotage our position for a future conflict

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Is this the story that Emeriti is offering now, or is it the one that Jdorje has presented? Can you please decide what your claim is?

I also saw a log of you both:
1) Informing them that Emeriti had no interest in CF after you waved them
and
2) Informing them that you would make us extend you if you CFed them.

The first of which is at odds with your claim; the second of which gets us involved.