Smoke break.
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Smoke break.
if B2B happens, will FS still win PYRO?
Dark elves inc! <3
This is a bit misleading. Pyromaniacs came into the age with a low roster and were probably compelled to join the war tier based on this dilemma. Though Pyro termed it as ghettoing, I don't think they can wrap their heads around actually playing ghetto. Most kingdoms have a basic core and Pyro is a whoring kingdom at heart, IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticeLeague
To fully understand the dynamics, strategically, is to know Utopian(recent) history. In Pyros last war age they'd warred a land dropped CR and ended the age vs Roughknecks. At that time Pyro had all hands on deck. They later learned the art of whoring when CR dominated them with homes pump in a hostile. With that final degree of understanding, Pyro was now a complete kingdom; they understood a necessary top mechanic and had the warring knowledge. They crowned.
It's foolish for any of us to think we are a complete player till we prove it in each aspect of the game. I joined Pyro to learn some mechanics lacking in my repitior, for example. When Pyro lost a number of key players you can reflect on subsequent ages to see what elements were missed. It's apparent that CR had great influence in Pyros prep, but the war wins didn't follow. This is not a shameful fact. As long as Pyro could yield a roster they would always be a top contender.
But we're talking about war here. The actual ability to use strategy beyond logistics.
In this game you either have to learn it or have an instinct for it. There's a short list that comes to mind: Dirty', Elit, Hesus, Tadpole, Feint, Madi, Petrified and perhaps cJ. Now I'm not comparing qualitative warring mojo, I'm simply pointing to the players I've seen overcome logistically superior opponents consistently in war. I know FS has at least one of these thinkers in it's midst but I'm not sure which.
You must understand that most wars in the game are fought between logistical thinkers, not strategists. Essentially the superior logistics win and the team with less understanding loses. Strategic thinkers are different. They overcome logistical barriers. I've often sited the colonial style warring I see as indicative of a lack of strategic knowledge or wisdom in Utopia.
How do I know? I do stuff to test for echo, as it were. You can cast bait to see if you get a nibble. In this case I would send out aid and if there was a FS reaction I knew they were a SN user. Sure, a lot of kingdoms can SN but they can't decipher it usefully. FS was polished in this aspect which is of great strategic value. Additionally I noticed they had set objectives that were tipping points in the war. If I passed a certain line they would raze or mass. They were quick to share knowledge like when I'd steal gold or runes and would react quickly to my peripheral endeavors. Beyond this they developed well under the radar, just as a country at war must adapt to losing air supremacy.
I can only convey that there are different ways of thinking that we must adapt to to grow. This game offers you the chance to match blades with some very formidable thinkers. Pyro has some intelligent players. They will adapt.
StratO your a writer or something? :P Sweet post.
after getting some sleep and catching up to rl, here are some insight from our side and how things went..
we left our previous war on feb yr4 with 35k acres and waved jerks on may yr4 & pufferfish on june yr4 to get closer to pyro's size..
pyro left their previous war on mar yr3 with 40k acres and slowly grown to 45k acres while pumping and looking for a war..
it was around may 24th yr4 when i approached nesta to arrange a possible war, and by june 24th yr4 the arrangement was made, with no other terms than a cf drop timer of may 24th yr5 and an acre cap of 48k..
we performed horrible during prep time.. we had like 6-7 provinces total who properly prepped themselves for the fight - most ppl couldnt even manage their rebuild gc, let alone excess cash for wages and dragons, and none of our 3 faery mystics were above 6 rwpa.. our rogues were in good shape though, and despite lacking any gc stash to function properly, our orcs had reached good military numbers.. we used our growth to 48k mainly on our tms to settle them around 2.1k acres each, knowing that we would lose a few on the way so preferred to set them all on same size & rest of it was used to grow the bottom to get them in reach of pyro's halfers..
pyro lost a prov like 24h after war arrangement, i offered to extend timer but nesta said it will be fine.. they had enough time to setup a prov quickly, with good military but lacking wpa & sci obviously.. they had a much smoother prep time except for that incident, and seemed to have ended up with desired numbers and pump lvl kd-wide.. they used most of their growth to set up a halfer merchant at 3.5k acres, and their faery mystic on 2.9k acres which effectively created a huge econ lead which lasted through whole conflict to the wd moment..
on cf drop, they immediately sent us a gold drake & funded their next sapphire - and even after that, we only had like 10-15m gc vs their 80m stock.. total sci books was around 24m vs 36m books, perhaps even more than that if they more non-allocated.. they had more tpa & wpa kd-wide, esp the difference was big on the core.. we had 2-2.5 rtpa & 2.5 rwpa on our core, while they were all around 3 rtpa and 4 rwpa.. this had a reflection on troop counts however, and we had like %7 more troops on the field..
probably our most questionable action during the conflict happened here, we went aggressive and waved into their fort.. my rationale was rather simple and it seemed to stack - we didnt have gc to pay wages alrdy, we needed to rob their gc and wanted to turn our military advantage into some strategic value so wanted to get gains and attack time bonus.. sitting in fort didnt seem like an option with no wages and no option to rob properly, but perhaps normal couldve been better to refrain ourselves from troop losses penalty.. as for giving button - this is the real questionable part.. i probably was overconfident with our orcs, and thought they cant tank too much waves, which i was completely wrong about.. it seemed like a good idea to trim offense on their non-cleric attackers though, considering the ub amount we can salvage would be the decising factor in the war..
they did extremely good work with micro-management during hostile, which took a heavy toll on our offensive capabilities.. we lost tens of thousand troops to starvation buffed by gold dragon, had a lot of gc starving ending us on %93 me on orcs & got all our horses stolen within 48h total.. our military overhead kept us in game though, so we kept pounding their halfer rogues - which were crucial to be taken down for our long term plans to have a chance to work.. all our tm effort were concentrated on depleting their gc stocks with robs and fgs as we couldnt slay dragon, due to extreme amount of excess they had..
hostile kept going for some days, they kept up training using fort bonuses & both sides hit down rogue defenses along with side hits on core.. a crucial point here was the wpa limitations we had.. we couldnt land a single ms even on their core because of the ****ty wpa we had on our mystics, while 2 of their mystics could easily op us through fort.. they were grinding our military advantage very quickly, but we managed to deplete their gc stocks before it got too late and it was also close to max meter - so the declaration followed the wave after..
at the point of declaration, we had no ubs out of our 11 tms, and they had 3.. we were still tanking gold dragon from hostile and kept tanking it until we had chained ppl to release to dragon.. troops advantage was now on pyro, along with tpa/wpa and econ advantage, and honestly it looked pretty grim for us.. the only leverage we had was the kd setup, which we were a lot more damage oriented than them, and i was hoping more dmg to counter their untouchable econ..
the good thing about being in such disadvantageous situation is, not having so many choices.. the game plan was simple - save as much ub tms as possible, lock the core in land trading vs each other, and try to win tm battle in the end.. we put all effort into out-chaining them and trimming their offense while finishing off halfers with a few side hits here and there.. both my crew, and even nesta was critisizing my decision on not sending drake, but the decision was simple.. we had only 1 dragon available and not a single coin to fund a 2nd one, so that only one had to count.. our only winning condition was to be able to win tm battle in the end, so it was rather simple decision to save it for later and tank their sapphire which didnt change our rogues prop success vs their core..
unfortunate things kept happening though, one of our orcs disappeared into thin air the moment war started and he didnt give any sign of life until his prov was auto-abandoned after a week into war.. our mystics were already useless, and attackers didnt provide proper army in-out, even as much as hours of latencies.. our first wave in the war seemed promising, but things started going downhill after second wave which we failed to finish 2 out of 3 chains due to inactivity and army in/out failure..
to cut it short, after some waves back and forth we managed to bring down 3 halfer rogues along with some attackers, while they took 2 fae rogues and 2 halfer rogues along with some of orcs - our orc didnt lose much offense except 1, due to not-so-deep chains and their new prov providing us very easy ll's.. the result was devastating though, by mintime we were looking at a nw gap of +1m, %15 more troops on them, one-side sapphire & roughly 200k peons vs 110k of ours..
i was extremely frustrated at this point with myself, leadership and entire crew at this point.. we had totally ****ed up entire prep, made ****loads of mistakes during hostile play, and seemed to be trending worse during the war.. i knew we still had some chances even though very slim, but our overall play was painfully bad and we were talking over exit strategies with loiso, and what/how to fix within organization and crew lvls..
then came the taunts & ****talk..
nesta accusing us for trying to farm sci before wd to beat some other kds (seriously? too much pew pew?), sheister demanding wd and swearing long-term grudges for wasting his time, and bombdigie, well just being himself i guess.. im only going through this, because this is the only reason i decided to stay in the war, along with yume believing in me too much - my disappointment in pyro's attitude weighed heavier than my frustration with ourselves..
this also reflected extremely positive to our crew, activity took a sharp rise and everybody was putting up more effort for the war.. on the other hand, it had a complete reverse effect on pyro, they now were thinking the war is over, so they started cashing in every single acre they can take from us.. this opened up a lot of options for us, we proceeded to create a very clear division among them between shelled provs and chained provs, inflated dwarves fell easy preys to our prop focus and most importantly, we managed to sneak one of our fallen fae rogues back into ub status in their acre frenzy (which they would later raze bounce for 2 days and wd before they even get close to finishing him off)..
the first step in our war effort was now complete with 8 ubs secured, except for their halfer merchant who could break our tms and stay ub.. they had 5 ubs which we werent even close to breaking by anyone.. basically it was 3 fae mystics, 3 fae rogues and 2 halfer rogues of ours vs 1 fae myst, 1 elf myst, 1 fae rogue, 1 halfer rogue and 1 halfer merch who could still break our tms.. they had a lot of acres stacked on their tms, and their halfer merch had 35kish peasants at some point which meant every moment was precious before they completely ran away.. also, that halfer was using raze&mass to open up our mystics for ga&aw runs, which destroyed all wpa on our 2 mystics before we stopped this later..
the second step was to negate the dragon effect so we could move on to tm vs tm battle, but we didnt have military options to slay 2 dragons (we assumed they either have next sapp funded or can fund very quickly).. so despite being short on time, we had to opt for holding ourselves for the first drake to fly away & used the time to strenghten our position via props, and tpa training also increased our towers kd-wide and created rune flow to destroy their econ on mid-tier which was stacked with their dwarf merchants.. we nm chained one of them, to add acres on our tms and raze/prop/fb controlled the other dwarves and orcs..
at the dragon flying away time, their entire middle tier was brought down to 2-3k peasants, previously chained halfers massacred below 2 rtpa, effectively shelling entire kd but for the remaining 5 ubs.. they still had a lot more military at this point, but their troops on mid tier was completely useless apart from feeding our rogues through props..
initial plan for dragon was to use it on fb+nsing the halfer merch, but as our mystics were falling one by one to ga+aw runs, we decided to use it to disable one of rogues instead to prevent that opening.. we had prepped extreme tpa's for that, and in a few moments of dragon we managed to bring their faery rogue from 4.8 rtpa to 1.7 rtpa, and fb'ed the halfer merch down to 6k peasants.. this was as good as we could expect from this, and moved on to slay the dragon on ours while they slain theirs.. we were already out of dragon send range at this point, so we didnt have to fear other dragons coming our way..
we immediately started nsing halfer merch after slaying dragon, and in a few days of focus, he was completely unable to break any of our tms, including the smallest fae we salvaged later.. they were unsuccessfully trying to razebounce his def away for 2 days at this point, but for some reason, it wasnt even close.. they had like 65k peasants on fae myst and 45k peasants on elf myst, but they just had all their eggs in one basket now and it wouldnt help them much.. they tried aiding up their small halfer rogues to slip away from diluted offense to ub status but we raze & massed their training before it came to fruition.. when we ended our work with halfer merchant, fae myst was sitting on 1.2 rtpa and elf was on 3 rtpa, making easy preys for us for the next 24-48h range..
they wd at this point, which imo was an excellent moment to do it, because we would farm back land & honor after each passing hour..
i believe what cost them this war is letting us play our game, mistaking it for some desperate attempt to farm sci or dragging war for some mysterious reason.. im hoping to hear more from their perspective, so we can have a complete story..
regardless to drama involved though, this was probably the most epic war we had for a long while, and i am extremely happy for the great come back we did.. gz to both crews, what made this war great is the extreme effort shown by both kds through the period over 2 weeks.. thanks for the war, and good luck to pyro on their future endaevours..
Well done Francis.
Fml Francis, that wall of text was the best Wall of text ever! I almost cried, those feels!
I can just say, having a prodigy as Francis.. Well we are Lucky! <3
And no he's mine, he will be my general when Sweden will take it's rightful place in the world. World Viking domination!
The key to FS strategy is remembering that practically speaking, wars have no time limit. Great posts on this thread from strat0 and Francis.
BTW, you guys still using munkbot /hipchat that nvrmnd set up Francis?
Btw Francis forgot to mention the time when he mentioned Viking love!! I dunno what I did but I guess it had to do with my extreme effective fireballing of a couple of pyros key provinces.
Good war Pyro! We enjoyed every second and it will be remembered by the Vikings a loooong time :)
1. Strato posts a lot of words, but he's right that FS was extremely attentive and responsive to changes in Pyro provinces. They contained everything that was containable. Pyro might have pumped some lower provs out of offense range with enough persistence, but as long as Raze/Massacre were basically ignoring nw-difference (one halfling lost almost all thieves to masses from provs >40% of his nw) there was nothing to be done.
2. Sampuan confirmed most of what we thought was going on. Last ditch effort to bring down the big Halfer when the Sapph flew away. I am not sure why this worked: a halfer should be quite difficult to prop, but obviously Pyro didn't think it needed a lot of TPA on that guy.
All I have to say is that these so called "war kingdoms" are lucky that they don't have to face me. Hide at the bottom all you want, you're still the trash tier of utopia. There should never be a thread of 7 pages for this nonsense.
I assume you are parodying Trump with that post.
I lol'd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/im...trumpfaces.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Can we get some trolls that plague these boards to chase Goldy away again ?
It was refreshing for a while not to have to put up with his childish, egomaniac bs on these boards.
Someone make him cry again please.
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
You're better than that SaMPuaN :(
What was wrong with what was stated? Am i missing something? :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I don't see that anyone has done anything wrong. Just fight it out.
Awesome post Sampuan/Francis. We really aren't spoiled with thorough war analysis in the forum these days. Was it panda that said they won't ever elaborate on their wars in the forum - because that'd equal feeding intel to future enemies? As understandable as that is (let no shadow fall on Pandas), it makes bystanders like me appreciate a good insight provision and analysis even more! :) So thanks. Almost feels like the good ole forum days :) Appreciated.
edit: On Godlys note: I'd always wanted to see FS take a step up to whoring for a couple of ages. I think that after a prep age or so being completely destroyed due to lack of experience (as all newcomers in the whore tier), you could make a mark. You've proven for dozens of ages that you excel in bashing ghettos, and that you're more than capable of taking on the best of the war tier and old retired whore kd's given a fair chance - isn't it about time you tried to evolve?
Oh. And don't give me the crap about whoring being boring. I'm sure you'll get your asses whopped first age up there, how can a good ass whopping in war be anything but a fun learning experience? Claiming whoring is boring is reserved those who's got seniority in the whoring tier ;)
I've been hoping you'd embrace the role, Eye of Sauron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
Somebody has to climb that mountain, right?
I'm thinking I could use my Virtual Kingdom template as a fellowship kingdom. If we have 3 fractured but quality kingdoms willing to bring their best 8 players we have bush(revenge of the nerds reference). What's better is I don't even have to belong to the kingdom, just abide the ideals and leave the keys under the doormat. I can't keep up with all you witches and your advanced com links anyway.
This means Nesta good at getting his team going into war with nice prep--
High GC stock, nice wpa and tpa and bpa.
However, his team isn't solid enough except for a few? Or is it Nesta who lost his warring touch?
Is there a CF in place between both kingdoms already? or just the 4 days of EOWCF?
Will we be seeing a round 2? I believe Pyro will kill off all the FS rouges first.
Why isn't Nesta commenting at all? Or his head still buried in the ground like Ostrich?
Get CJ back, you sure win. You are like the officer in the army, can prep and plan very well. But u lack a good sergeant major like CJ who make those soldiers move in combat zone.
Nesta is gallivanting around Asia trying to take over some multinational corporation.
What happened to magnanimous victory? Yikes..
Lol, that is with great foresight. Will he take over utopia as well, kick bishop away, and he becomes the dictator. No matter how good you are, it is useless. Nesta just need to delete you. Then reply you, email to support for explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
I feel its safe to say Pyro threw this by beeing greedy.
They didnt bothered to finish chaining tm's and were too focused on gains to deepchain our core.
Not sure why, mbe they thought they couldnt loose at that point, or they just underestimated our will to fight the odds.
Either way they gave us way back into the war after that botched hostile and we took it.
What was the starting NW and acres before hostile
Why is whoring seen as step up? I've always thought it was boring and it is more fun playing for war wins. is there some type of elite game changing strategy required to whore vs 3 other kds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadpole
Of course warring the best warring kingdoms is a step up. And the best warring kingdoms are the whore kingdoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeronate
i'm courious, did they tried to raze builds - go in range/start drake/build out of range their 3 big dwarves? at one point when i looked at kd pages they we're able to do so by razing 30-40% on each, at some others 50-60% etcQuote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
but i have no idea if they tried it and you coutered or they just had dwarves with full build/in const all time.
they havent tried it but we were aware of the possibility.. they didnt have gc to immediately fund it, and it was only their income who kept some of their provs alive.. we could also raze any of them at will, so once they get that close in nw, we would start our own dragon in a few hours too (dw buildings take 12h to get back to previous nw value, so they would be only slightly above range after the trick).. regardless though, i would definitely try that if i were them..Quote:
Originally Posted by dreaku
they could of delayed you further by timing builds across the kd to come in next tick, but yeah, just a delay. but that would be just a secondary objective more important would of been the start of a drag since, from what i read around, they had more econ ...Quote:
Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN
Seeing growth as boring is fine. But it's still a step up. The warring kingdoms don't go for growth because they know they can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeronate
If the top 3 kingdoms got mehuled the "war" kingdoms will no doubt try to land crown.
And yes, the elite game changing strategy is playing a full age instead of just a few days at a time.
Pyro would have had dragon advantage once back in range, which would have happened soon. But how much good would that do?
We had good eco going also, so dragon would fly both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
If FS and CR warred on similiar acres, NW and honour then FS would win hands down I think. CR would obviously destroy FS at growth. But FS enjoy warring too much to distract themselves with growth, and Godly appears too self-important to be a warring KD for an age, so it will never happen. It's two separate goals so any attempt to compare to two is futile really.
It is obvious the majority prefer warring. It's like warring is soccer and growth is american football - the USA think american football is the one true football, whereas the rest of the world just doesnt really give a **** about it and plays soccer. Sure CR might win the superbowl, and everyone might care for a day, but then it will be back to enjoying soccer.
Where were all these kingdoms that can supposedly destroy us 4 rounds ago when I was leading CR and ran over the entire war tier?
Oh, I remember. They were all in utalk crying over how we're bullies.
I will be very, very clear about this: We get 0/1 war wins round after round because people refuse to war us unless they absolutely have to (for the round win). The round in question, we got 3 or 4 war wins because we literally forced every single kingdom into warring by max meter. If people refused to hit back, I ordered people to raze them over and over again until they changed their tune.
Despite all of the crap that Bishop and Palem give me, that round must have given them the biggest "this is how utopia is meant to be played" boners of all time.
Your superbowl analogy is incorrect. You are in the minor league, we are in the major league. If our paths cross, you have very little chance of survival.
short wars and FS - you got to be kidding - they always plan for the long run and they are superb doing so - should be common knowledge by now...
congrats for the win
According to you there is no league, just you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Godly
As with so many other kds, in our giraffes age, we offered FS war on similar acres, honor, and NW. They declined. Unlike many of the other kds, we did not opt to try to force them into war -- though we did war many of the top of the warring tier that age (or try to on similar acres/nw/honor).Quote:
Originally Posted by FATstrat
One of the issues with the war tier is their insistence on the appearance of a fair war that is actually slanted in their favor. Of course a kingdom with 11 t/ms on the same land as a kingdom running 5 is likely to be favored to win a long war -- they're setup better to hold acres over the long run and sustain econ/etc. Except, of course, if that pool happens to be concentrated on say 2 cows and 5 t/ms instead, the kd with 2 cows is favored to win. But also is likely to have significantly more land.
But in the basic consideration that you offer here, there's no understanding of this. So kds can never come to an agreement on 'what's fair'. This was one of the issues between ED and FS -- an inability for the two kds to agree on what a fair conflict between them would look like.