BB vs Sleepy

Ok, I'm ready now - just got my TDs in. Who am I hitting?

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Originally Posted by JoRoSaR

Ok, I'm ready now - just got my TDs in. Who am I hitting?

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Your wife! Its weekend!

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Originally Posted by Meep

On behalf of Sleepy, I'd like to say we're pretty confident we're gonna farm em

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:) i like this

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Originally Posted by 13nesta13

Aside from 2 asian dudes sleeping through their overpop i think everyone at my side did well.

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fk you understand

Once they started chaining Coss it was over :P

Why are we entertaining anything that Bart or Matija says. Any post by them should just be skipped overall.

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Originally Posted by 13nesta13

Third mistake i felt was going 6 rtpa on humans then not doing tds. This meant they lost tpa fast on ns runs and the tpa couldnt sustain.

Things working in our favour (not in sleepy's control):
Our nw ranges made for better chains.
Humans were fast first wave but too reliant on builds. They went something like 18-20 rax and did minus h to keep up with our avians but that couldnt last long. By 24h they were unable to match us for speed due to even lower BE and diluting rax from razes and incoming.
Undead war hero. The gains were sweet being unaffected by emerald and helped us take their 2 faeries down.
Sleepy had no rogues. This meant no GA and AW from them. We could run our faeries with no wt and go heavy wt on core to counter their 6 rtpa. They needed to raze to break our builds.

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few question nesta....
1.why would they'd need to raze. With easier op and better science (even if not x4-5) shouldnt they of been able to tornado your provs pre wave to remove things like wt/gs?
--this seems like an easy use of runes/mana that sage could easily leverage over your avain/undead
2. Did they really hit you trying to chain and using -hours instead of just eating worse attack times and mixing in max gains?
---If they did this, this litteraly alone could of cost them the war...i mean i've seen it tried, its always better to just outlast the avains and be outchained a bit early
3. What advantage would TD have done if their BE was as bad as u said....wouldnt the lack of build space and terrible BE just meant that they'd of had even worse luck using things like rax?

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Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta

Either Coss sucks or he intentionally farmed out. Given the relative strengths of both KDs it's simply inconceivable a KD with such an insane sci advantage farms out that badly in a min-time war. Hell, even WSK lost less vs Emeriti than Sleepy did to BB relatively speaking.

I've seen Coss war before and I think he's a good player, so the only other explanation is that this was done intentionally.

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Intentionally farming out is common now days thanks to PewPew bring it and old devs did noting. Probably Korp can count how many times i told its already :P
TBH i don't think Coss will farm out intentional when he is on one from TOP spots? Most like he was not in his best shape (RL duties) for lead war. Every one have his good and bad wars.

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Originally Posted by Persain

few question nesta....
1.why would they'd need to raze. With easier op and better science (even if not x4-5) shouldnt they of been able to tornado your provs pre wave to remove things like wt/gs?
--this seems like an easy use of runes/mana that sage could easily leverage over your avain/undead
2. Did they really hit you trying to chain and using -hours instead of just eating worse attack times and mixing in max gains?
---If they did this, this litteraly alone could of cost them the war...i mean i've seen it tried, its always better to just outlast the avains and be outchained a bit early
3. What advantage would TD have done if their BE was as bad as u said....wouldnt the lack of build space and terrible BE just meant that they'd of had even worse luck using things like rax?

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Well they did ran 0 towers on their humans and we LSed their runes away, also their chained relesead tpa and their bigs had diluted tpa. Dunno , just saying, human with - wpa and extra rune costs cand be hard to do ops with while running 0 or very few towers

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Originally Posted by Persain

few question nesta....
1.why would they'd need to raze. With easier op and better science (even if not x4-5) shouldnt they of been able to tornado your provs pre wave to remove things like wt/gs?
--this seems like an easy use of runes/mana that sage could easily leverage over your avain/undead
2. Did they really hit you trying to chain and using -hours instead of just eating worse attack times and mixing in max gains?
---If they did this, this litteraly alone could of cost them the war...i mean i've seen it tried, its always better to just outlast the avains and be outchained a bit early
3. What advantage would TD have done if their BE was as bad as u said....wouldnt the lack of build space and terrible BE just meant that they'd of had even worse luck using things like rax?

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1. humans 50% runes cost + running almost 0 towers. Sure they started like 16m runes or so, but LS + RT.
Raze was for WT's as they had no rogues to GA
2. Yes @ -ve hours, but gains began to suck heavily vs avians
3. Had they better time there swaps, BE would've been 100 + as we declare, less losses was there big downfall, we ran close to 20% wt's

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Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta

Either Coss sucks or he intentionally farmed out. Given the relative strengths of both KDs it's simply inconceivable a KD with such an insane sci advantage farms out that badly in a min-time war. Hell, even WSK lost less vs Emeriti than Sleepy did to BB relatively speaking.

I've seen Coss war before and I think he's a good player, so the only other explanation is that this was done intentionally.

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Just only cause im drinking. they were loosing on NW much harder than us, land wise was in our favor with each wave.
And fyi since you're a master of farmouts, this wasnt a farmout, and if if was it was, it was a pretty pathetic one with just a WW bonus.
Maybe go back into your hole and hide?

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Originally Posted by clawz

fk you understand

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dont feel bad, i got chained when I was drunk

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Originally Posted by arcticdemon

Why are we entertaining anything that Bart or Matija says. Any post by them should just be skipped overall.

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Why are we entertaining anything that arcticdemon says? Any post by him should just be skipped overall.

Wait, that's only me with this response, nobody actually gives a damn.

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Why are we entertaining anything that arcticdemon says? Any post by him should just be skipped overall.

Wait, that's only me with this response, nobody actually gives a damn.

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"I don't give a damn but I need to tell everyone that I don't give a damn so everyone knows I don't give a damn."

Kind of what arcticdemon did, yes.

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Kind of what arcticdemon did, yes.

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there where you're wrong. I stay off forum cause of nubs like you and bart. But hey atleast it is entertaining to read to get a good laugh when you both are involved.

and honestly, you two nubs should stop speculating as too why sleepy wd as you both ( bart) have shown on several instances including this your general lack of knowledge and simply inflated ego. Makes me feel sad for Proteus and wonder now if I should befriend him now..

You did in fact come here and express my posts should be ignored, then you say you are well entertained by them, you are contradicting yourself by even responding here. Just look how quick it was to begin with. Why you care about me, I don't even play in Sparta or anything, just minding my business trying to lead some random ghetto and I post here for random fun. We might get this ritual up on time, maybe not, depends if more than 4 people try casting it in the 48 ticks window. Have a good one.

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Originally Posted by bounceOS

Well they did ran 0 towers on their humans and we LSed their runes away, also their chained relesead tpa and their bigs had diluted tpa. Dunno , just saying, human with - wpa and extra rune costs cand be hard to do ops with while running 0 or very few towers

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Originally Posted by arcticdemon

1. humans 50% runes cost + running almost 0 towers. Sure they started like 16m runes or so, but LS + RT.
Raze was for WT's as they had no rogues to GA
2. Yes @ -ve hours, but gains began to suck heavily vs avians
3. Had they better time there swaps, BE would've been 100 + as we declare, less losses was there big downfall, we ran close to 20% wt's

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er...with their science i'd of assumed rune cost and -wpa get negated, and stealth for rune stealing can litteraly be one of the most important ops u do in war. i mean its not like it takes 500k runes to nado someone down, and if it saves a raze thats a huge bonus for the 20-30 stealing ops u are diverting from ns. WT arent THAT strong that they protect runes.

#2...honestly if they really did -hours that probubly single handedly cost them the war. increased offensive losses for lower gains completely negates and long term war prospects.

#3 low be isnt devastating as its inevitable its why td lowring tpa losses 10-20% max isnt going to help on a war changing strategy since its only for 1 opening war ns run(in most wars)...and as bounce said u dilute or release anyway. probably coulda gotten away with just losing the tpa if they'd kept homes/towers so they still had magic :|

Then again if im reading it right i see 0 towers, 20% rax in builds....seems differnt than i'd of run....everyone needs towers, and doesnt need rax if u're going full attacker kd :P

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

You did in fact come here and express my posts should be ignored, then you say you are well entertained by them, you are contradicting yourself by even responding here. Just look how quick it was to begin with. Why you care about me, I don't even play in Sparta or anything, just minding my business trying to lead some random ghetto and I post here for random fun. We might get this ritual up on time, maybe not, depends if more than 4 people try casting it in the 48 ticks window. Have a good one.

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Yes it should be ignored, as in dont reply to you, which i dont know why I'm now.. but it is entertaining to read
and you would always be dubbed as a super noob in uto and life
and so what if you dont play in sparta, players like you make the game sad yet entertaining, and im sure you would farm out to sparta if you can..js

bounce and sagebro2.... stop feeding the trolls. ...

persian, check WA :D

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Originally Posted by Persain

er...with their science i'd of assumed rune cost and -wpa get negated, and stealth for rune stealing can litteraly be one of the most important ops u do in war. i mean its not like it takes 500k runes to nado someone down, and if it saves a raze thats a huge bonus for the 20-30 stealing ops u are diverting from ns. WT arent THAT strong that they protect runes.

#2...honestly if they really did -hours that probubly single handedly cost them the war. increased offensive losses for lower gains completely negates and long term war prospects.

#3 low be isnt devastating as its inevitable its why td lowring tpa losses 10-20% max isnt going to help on a war changing strategy since its only for 1 opening war ns run(in most wars)...and as bounce said u dilute or release anyway. probably coulda gotten away with just losing the tpa if they'd kept homes/towers so they still had magic :|

Then again if im reading it right i see 0 towers, 20% rax in builds....seems differnt than i'd of run....everyone needs towers, and doesnt need rax if u're going full attacker kd :P

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science wise ,they were generally around 100% production, but it matters not if you got no towers. and they also got a -15% spell success, so even still there modded is drop. Makes nado's more difficult

2. that plus we casting BL, with emeral..made quad taps easy

3. It would've helped early on , means saved razed. and even still as it diluted they would've had more op power for longer. 1-2 waves more of ns could change the tide

no towers cost them, but also fyi there calc rwpa wasnt that great either, meaning on par with us. so again Nado's as you suggested would've been unlikely

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Originally Posted by astron

bounce and sagebro2.... stop feeding the trolls. ...

persian, check WA :D

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<3..
@artci. fair enough :D

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Originally Posted by astron

bounce and sagebro2.... stop feeding the trolls. ...

persian, check WA :D

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only cause im drinking...

wait i thnk i might be drunk
volunteer to sit me @astron?

Lol arctic be happy I started something here. A top war and no one even posted stuff. Hell, I hardly support everything I said but sometimes you gotta start at a point where it starts a discussion.

Without me or Matija posting this forum is dead and boring. Reading the comments, it does seem sleepy majorly ****ed up. Should've at least included 3-4 rogues to do the GA WTs in their set-up too.

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Originally Posted by arcticdemon

Yes it should be ignored, as in dont reply to you, which i dont know why I'm now.. but it is entertaining to read
and you would always be dubbed as a super noob in uto and life
and so what if you dont play in sparta, players like you make the game sad yet entertaining, and im sure you would farm out to sparta if you can..js

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Yeah well, that's just like your opinion dude.

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Originally Posted by arcticdemon

only cause im drinking...

wait i thnk i might be drunk
volunteer to sit me @astron?

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anything for you brother. but im getting drunk with nesta tonight.....

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Yeah well, that's just like your opinion dude.

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think its most of our opinions, and I'm sure its been said before....

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Yeah well, that's just like your opinion dude.

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think its most of our opinions, and I'm sure its been said before....

Witty comeback!

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Originally Posted by Persain

few question nesta....
1.why would they'd need to raze. With easier op and better science (even if not x4-5) shouldnt they of been able to tornado your provs pre wave to remove things like wt/gs?
--this seems like an easy use of runes/mana that sage could easily leverage over your avain/undead
2. Did they really hit you trying to chain and using -hours instead of just eating worse attack times and mixing in max gains?
---If they did this, this litteraly alone could of cost them the war...i mean i've seen it tried, its always better to just outlast the avains and be outchained a bit early
3. What advantage would TD have done if their BE was as bad as u said....wouldnt the lack of build space and terrible BE just meant that they'd of had even worse luck using things like rax?

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I think Sleepy played 0 towers and had most of their runes LSed? With humans extra rune cost and lower spell successrate might be difficult.
Aside that, if you can multitap anyway, doing 1-2 raze for 20% land each isn't that costly

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Originally Posted by Persain

few question nesta....
1.why would they'd need to raze. With easier op and better science (even if not x4-5) shouldnt they of been able to tornado your provs pre wave to remove things like wt/gs?
--this seems like an easy use of runes/mana that sage could easily leverage over your avain/undead
2. Did they really hit you trying to chain and using -hours instead of just eating worse attack times and mixing in max gains?
---If they did this, this litteraly alone could of cost them the war...i mean i've seen it tried, its always better to just outlast the avains and be outchained a bit early
3. What advantage would TD have done if their BE was as bad as u said....wouldnt the lack of build space and terrible BE just meant that they'd of had even worse luck using things like rax?

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1. Again, they dont have such a huge science lead over us. They had like 250, and we had like 185 on avians. 2% more BE, 4% more pop, 1.5% more ME, <10% more magic/crime sci. Not insurmountable, especially given human's race penalty on -WPA and +rune cost.
Boom's SOS (4days old):
Income: 0% Tools: 29.3% Housing: 24.6% Prod: 143% Military: 22% Thief: 145.9% Magic: 141.7%
Mine (didn't change much except I removed novice scientists to income now):
Income: 4.6% Tools: 27.5% Housing: 20.3% Prod: 55.9% Military: 20.5% Thief: 134.2% Magic: 133.9%

Tornado wasn't really an option because we LS'ed all runes and we ourselves were pretty active rune users, so stock in KD was very low. Avians with MP GP M.Shield FL NB BL FANA. They stocked a lot of runes and went 0% towers, which was a surprise they didn't utilise the 140% production science better. They did something like this from what I can retrieve from bot:
Homes: 0% Farms: 5% Mills: 0% Banks: 0% TG: 14% Arms: 0% TB: -421k
Racks: 20% Forts: 0% GS: 17.9% Hosps: 19.8% Guilds: 7% Twers: 0% Hit: Sev
TD: 0% WT: 0% Labs: 0% Univ: 0% Stbles: 15.3% Dung: 1% Exploring: 0
Couple that with us doing Sabo Wiz before every chain, the chained with boosted WPA didnt really have much mana to spare, whatever he had was literally LLing for his dear life. And we did 2 chains on most chains b2b (chaining him, he gets home, sends out, we drop him further right away with our smalls), meaning for almost a good 24h they had to use mana for LL only.
This, and us killing 2 faeries to 2500a meant their only self-rune production were killed.
Raze wasnt that great for them too if they were to do it on avian. We were more like 2x-ing (sometimes 3 if we got to plan real well with kills and stuff, and I thought we did that decent) each other at equal size start of fight. Most their extra pop went to tpa so MPA was similar (they went 6 vs our 4 like I said). Only on undead they could kinda do it and still have enough off to get decent incoming. We on the other hand had the freedom of choice that if a target left a defense convenient for us to throw a spare raze and we can still get decent incoming we would do it and leave our rogues to do other things like AW for LL farm, otherwise when chaining a tricky target where nobody could get decent incoming if he had to do 1 raze, we would turn to our rogues doing GA.

2. They only minus h for opening wave. Apologies if I didnt make that clear. Nothing wrong with that imo, I would have done exactly the same thing if I were giving button to 10 avian 10 undeads.
As for sustenance, why would you think avians are poorer than humans? Especially when we have clerics, and sages on CF drop with 120% BE hosp. Avians racial and personality advantages were BE and build independent (-25% attack time, fana BL which gives like 15% extra OME at literally no penalty if timed well to expire before their turn to wave which was what we did. and -35% losses for cleric). Humans however were over-reliant on builds. They have literally no bonus from race that's useful for war and instead, a bunch of penalties. Having to hit into and be hit with emerald both ways I dont see how humans out-last avians.

3. See (1) for their sample build. At 70% BE plus diminishing returns I would have gone a bit more rainbow, with TDs in. Could also have been more careful with the TPA sent management for more sustain. At 70% BE 10% TD would have given 25.2% less losses and 18.9% bonus TPA. Which probably leads to something like 10-15% more success rates (10-15% less fails), and in total like 32-35% less losses? Keep in mind these numbers stack over time. The more you succeed and lose less thieves, the lesser you fail in future ops and lose less. I wouldnt call that insignificant.

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Originally Posted by astron

bounce and sagebro2.... stop feeding the trolls. ...

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No backseat Trollerating pls

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

Yeah well, that's just like your opinion dude.

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*Man

"Man" was the natural flow of what I wrote, corrected it to "dude" because that's what he kept saying. Then I looked it up and it actually was "man" :D

excuses...excuses/// excuses....Its a FW

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Originally Posted by MyNameIsMatija

"Man" was the natural flow of what I wrote, corrected it to "dude" because that's what he kept saying. Then I looked it up and it actually was "man" :D

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He's The Dude :D

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Originally Posted by Bart of Sparta

Aha. "quit" --> mole --> delete provs on a BB competitor --> "quit" --> back to BB. I feel bad for ever trusting you and defending you against my own players.

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not all play/agree to continue playing with farmers man, one may argue on how to keep his reputation still going. Bounce took the easy way out and left!

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Originally Posted by Korp

Isn't that funny your tactic was quit Sparta build a province then farm out said province to Sparta and then return to Sparta.

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damn, that was nice!

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Originally Posted by 13nesta13

Fight summary as promised. This was a war of fine margins. The kd that made fewer mistakes won. And deservedly so.

Pre fight up to notice expiry we were probably 40-60 on paper. Gold not an issue either sides on a kd level but province level we were pretty short on our faeries. Had to do some DS.

If sleepy had conserved their BE at 110++ i would put us on 30-70 odds. But they didnt. That said we also messed our prep on few avians and one or 2 undeads. One undead apparently didn't even receive the memo to go 70% homes. Some avians, crucial ones as well being biggest few, overdid the peasant conserving BE sh!t that they were still stuck on 5 ppa when train date came, meaning he was going to show at fight expiry 4mpa less (though there were tickly training after). Leadership was busy getting wasted at Oktoberfest to micro and hold everyone's hands and these kind of bs happens.

Things i felt sleepy did wrong:
Opening first 8 hits from prosperous (fhey admitted that). Rest opening wave hits they moved to aggro. But this allowed us to declare and chain those who hit from prosperous and beat home. And chain another bunch who were still out.
Pwrsonally if i were them i would open from bottom and semi turtle top. And play from there. If we retalled on their top then they can commit another few bigger dudes knowing there's a few chainable avians once/if we push. Fully committing when the war is this close almost never works out great.

Second mistake was the chaining of the undeads that got ns'ed half his offense from 1.3m to 650k. Leaving him at 5k msking poor hits was better than chaining him 2nd wave. With 650k off he was able to quad and finish chains for us at 2.5k.

Third mistake i felt was going 6 rtpa on humans then not doing tds. This meant they lost tpa fast on ns runs and the tpa couldnt sustain.

Things working in our favour (not in sleepy's control):
Our nw ranges made for better chains.
Humans were fast first wave but too reliant on builds. They went something like 18-20 rax and did minus h to keep up with our avians but that couldnt last long. By 24h they were unable to match us for speed due to even lower BE and diluting rax from razes and incoming.
Undead war hero. The gains were sweet being unaffected by emerald and helped us take their 2 faeries down.
Sleepy had no rogues. This meant no GA and AW from them. We could run our faeries with no wt and go heavy wt on core to counter their 6 rtpa. They needed to raze to break our builds.

In summary, we needed to play near perfect and for them to make a few mistakes and this was what happened. Credit goes to my co leaders for executing the first 2 waves while i was stuck in flight using the limited free 20mb to give orders. Aside from 2 asian dudes sleeping through their overpop i think everyone at my side did well.

It may not look obvious to the outsider who the winner was, given that the nw was dead even. But it was fairly certain from the inside. I am indeed surprised the wd came because i thought ot might go another 12 to 24h. But they stood to lose much more if they cant turn it around. It would have required some mistakes from our end which i dont think we were in the mood to commit.

We were 4m nw down at cf drop but we closed them to even nw in 48h. Sleepy's bigs at wd were their 3-4k's mostly except Patek which we AW'ed to make for LL with low tpa wpa and defense. On the other hand, most of our big avians were our bigs to start the fight with. And clerics too, so much more sustainable. We were able to semi turtle and send out between 600-700k MO on most of the big avians while keeping 550k def home. Their top had offense of about 900k and would leave under 300-350k if out. This means they struggled to break our bigs since they could only 1x while we could 2x their top comfortably and 2x bottom chain(who had 40-70k def).

Still a great fight and credit to coss and sleepy. Ggwp.

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Why didnt you mention them running 0% towers and having 5.5mil runes incinerated by mighty migz & DL? That actually was the best part of the war for me

& for the records, Coss & co, dont suck. They just ran out of luck