CR vs AMA

Just a random question for Elit. You seem to get all worked up by saying that CR wouldn't accept your deal terms until you were razed down by Remote and that somehow that makes them bad people because you were in a position where you couldn't win.

I get that they did this whole thread and stuff and that pissed you off and I'm not going to get into the argument. But...isn't the logic of granting you a CF when you were down just like you granting kingdoms who ask for extensions because they are in conflict / you don't want to vulture them? The same thing you've repeatedly posted about to show how nice and honourable you are?

Isn't it the point that when your kingdom is having the most difficult time that they should be granting you the extension with reasonable terms and that actually makes them reasonable people rather than just continuing to offer you no other opportunity?

I'm just confused by that.

Anyway, continue. More lame play by all. Not enough nudies.

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Originally Posted by Meep

I don't think you get the privilege of making offers.

You ****play, your fate is in other people's hands.

No offer that doesn't involve resetting your cows should be considered by anybody as a cause for stopping the razes.

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Dude, who are you and what happened to you since all you can post is hateful nonsense?

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Originally Posted by Soul_Hunter

I said Pyro will be bigger and they are. Also they stopped hitting us at certain point (that was after your assumptions making them still wrong). Also CR has no chance in the upper size provs.

And we talk about numbers... AMA gained 35k acres from CR and lost 55k to gb. Care to explain? :)

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If you disregard pool acres, yes Pyro is bigger. But anyone knows pool acres are just as important as built acres when dealing with whoring.

And I don't really care about their chances or their cows/calves/or size of provs. I didn't ask for that.

You ask how CR was going to make up a 25k acre difference. I told you how, and they have.

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Originally Posted by Gakundra

Just a random question for Elit. You seem to get all worked up by saying that CR wouldn't accept your deal terms until you were razed down by Remote and that somehow that makes them bad people because you were in a position where you couldn't win.

I get that they did this whole thread and stuff and that pissed you off and I'm not going to get into the argument. But...isn't the logic of granting you a CF when you were down just like you granting kingdoms who ask for extensions because they are in conflict / you don't want to vulture them? The same thing you've repeatedly posted about to show how nice and honourable you are?

Isn't it the point that when your kingdom is having the most difficult time that they should be granting you the extension with reasonable terms and that actually makes them reasonable people rather than just continuing to offer you no other opportunity?

I'm just confused by that.

Anyway, continue. More lame play by all. Not enough nudies.

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Way you say its sounds logic :)
For begin you need to understand im care a lot for ppl keep his words. WE had for 3 ages very reasonable relations with Zauper. I cant accept his KD can take over him and he cant make deal he keep us belie we have done for few days. WE dont have this kind relations. I was believing we are in much better terms from age begin. If i had reason to worry for havoc i will have set my cf with pyro to expire 24h before havoc for more flex. But i trusted Zauper and his good will. After he gone his KD show total arrogance. Just check page 1-2. They was not confident they can win age if we war and farm pyro. So far we had better chances in incoming war vs Pyro till ex Havoc player start raze our cows. This messed much our prepare for Pyro but we still had chances. For few days Havoc offered us lame deals like: they can let us war pyro but if we end bigger from havoc there is no notice deal, if we are smaller they will give us 72h notice. Sure its dont show "honorable play". After we get complete messed and become clear our chances for win vs pyro drop Havoc decide to act like good guy and offered us keep notice but after war is over we must War havoc and we cant b2b war with pyro. This simple give Havoc age win with no options for both ama and pyro and only way for ama/pyro to compete Havoc is making shady deal...
In short Havoc made terrible dumb move with start all this mess. Best chance for them to win age was simple sit and pump till our war is over and after it notice kd win war. This way there is no risk from shady deals too.

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Originally Posted by Elit

But i trusted Zauper and his good will. After he gone his KD show total arrogance. Just check page 1-2.
...
Best chance for them to win age was simple sit and pump till our war is over and after it notice kd win war. This way there is no risk from shady deals too.

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And what happens when you go after Pyro again after hypothetical war is over? My post in the first few pages is stressing that it is unfair that we don't get to fight either of you simply because the two of you came to the conclusion that fighting us is suicide. So essentially you put us in a position where we could literally watch you two fight over and over again stalling, accumulating ww bonuses, and avoiding us completely to crown. It's indirect chartshaping (agreed wars to avoid the stronger kingdom) which you chastised pew2 and someone else for doing two rounds ago (and pretty sure you ultimately hit into their hostile/war, can't remember).

That's where OUR frustration came from: You're admitting that we have the better kingdom, but could potentially lose the round because of being "nice guys" and not interfering.

We had no problem letting you two fight if winner agreed to fight us.

Somewhere along the road, this turned into "Havoc is ****playing us.. dealbreak time!" If you would have just tried to negotiate SOMETHING instead of looking for the easy way out, we could have saved a lot of time and reputation here.

P.S. you continuously call me a random player with no leadership at all yet you seem to be fixated on what I said in this thread. If you think I'm just a random player, why are you concerned about my posts on here? When Crazy_Pete makes a post on here, I don't put much stock into it.

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Originally Posted by Godly

It's indirect chartshaping (agreed wars to avoid the weaker kingdom)

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Fixed for you! You have loss wars in past from both AMA and Pyro so we are better kds and is normal to war for crown :P

Im sure you don't understand it but way your kd played this age is shame for game. You cant sit on your ass and pump for 9 weeks and pretend after it you are good kd and deserve to win age. All what you did is abuse game mechanic and bully/vulture small kds. You cant gain any respect with this kind play.

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Originally Posted by Elit

Fixed for you! You have loss wars in past from both AMA and Pyro so we are better kds and is normal to war for crown :P

Im sure you don't understand it but way your kd played this age is shame for game. You cant sit on your ass and pump for 9 weeks and pretend after it you are good kd and deserve to win age. All what you did is abuse game mechanic and bully/vulture small kds. You cant gain any respect with this kind play.

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At least when they bully a smaller KD they do it right and respectfully and don't get their banks razed the next age as a result.

The way your KD played this age is shame for game. You can't have an outstanding roster and beat all comers for 9 weeks and then lose all chance of crown because you bullied the wrong ghetto and pretend after it you are good kd and deserve to win age. All what you did is get abused by game mechanics and deal break. You can't gain any respect with this kind of play.

I like how there's only one way to play utopia and if you don't play that way, you get dealbroken. Bullying kingdoms? That's the entire point of utopia -- take acres from people who don't want to give them. Did you bully that ghetto when you tricked them into warring you OOP?

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Originally Posted by Meep

At least when they bully a smaller KD they do it right and respectfully and don't get their banks razed the next age as a result.

The way your KD played this age is shame for game. You can't have an outstanding roster and beat all comers for 9 weeks and then lose all chance of crown because you bullied the wrong ghetto and pretend after it you are good kd and deserve to win age. All what you did is get abused by game mechanics and deal break. You can't gain any respect with this kind of play.

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Rly ?! Winning all our wars vs opponents vastly bigger and more pumped than us, with bank provinces and on top of all back 2 back is shame for the game? What did ur kd do?

I think half the people dat post here should stop using drugs! DRUGS - THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER!

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Originally Posted by Godly

I like how there's only one way to play utopia and if you don't play that way, you get dealbroken. Bullying kingdoms? That's the entire point of utopia -- take acres from people who don't want to give them. Did you bully that ghetto when you tricked them into warring you OOP?

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Did u bully the 100 ghettoes u got ur acres from all age? Sure u did its what u and ur kd do...
We got 1 war vs a ghettoo and it was straight oop ... plus they were our only option at that time. Reaching for straws much noobly?

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Originally Posted by Elit

Way you say its sounds logic :)
For begin you need to understand im care a lot for ppl keep his words. WE had for 3 ages very reasonable relations with Zauper. I cant accept his KD can take over him and he cant make deal he keep us belie we have done for few days. WE dont have this kind relations. I was believing we are in much better terms from age begin. If i had reason to worry for havoc i will have set my cf with pyro to expire 24h before havoc for more flex. But i trusted Zauper and his good will. After he gone his KD show total arrogance. Just check page 1-2. They was not confident they can win age if we war and farm pyro. So far we had better chances in incoming war vs Pyro till ex Havoc player start raze our cows. This messed much our prepare for Pyro but we still had chances. For few days Havoc offered us lame deals like: they can let us war pyro but if we end bigger from havoc there is no notice deal, if we are smaller they will give us 72h notice. Sure its dont show "honorable play". After we get complete messed and become clear our chances for win vs pyro drop Havoc decide to act like good guy and offered us keep notice but after war is over we must War havoc and we cant b2b war with pyro. This simple give Havoc age win with no options for both ama and pyro and only way for ama/pyro to compete Havoc is making shady deal...
In short Havoc made terrible dumb move with start all this mess. Best chance for them to win age was simple sit and pump till our war is over and after it notice kd win war. This way there is no risk from shady deals too.

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Let me see if I can translate this from Elitish. I believe it reads, "Zauper, I thought we were friends. You're doing what's right for your kingdom, but it's bad for my kingdom. All you had to do was sit and wait for us to get stronger before fighting us, and that would make you a good person."

What an awful ad hominem. Come on Elit. You can construct better arguments than this if you want to say they're a weaker kd.

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P.S. you continuously call me a random player with no leadership at all yet you seem to be fixated on what I said in this thread. If you think I'm just a random player, why are you concerned about my posts on here? When Crazy_Pete makes a post on here, I don't put much stock into it.

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Godly don't be angry about my province name, it's not permanent :P I will probably change it to another in a few days. It's all out of good fun.

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Originally Posted by Meep

You completely wrecked the outcome of the age, it's not about taking back exactly what you took, it's about punishing you. They should really be continuing and raze kill the smalls you still have.

Also, they really should be continuing to raze you, because you're going to come OOWP with the button on several KDs and the potential to still wreck the age.

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WTF?!? EVeryone has stopped razing? Pathetic.

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Originally Posted by guard14n

Rly ?! Winning all our wars vs opponents vastly bigger and more pumped than us, with bank provinces and on top of all back 2 back is shame for the game? What did ur kd do?

I think half the people dat post here should stop using drugs! DRUGS - THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER!

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There is more to top play than warring. Considering you were at a constant "disadvantage" shows how inexperienced you guys are.

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Originally Posted by wickedfail

There is more to top play than warring. Considering you were at a constant "disadvantage" shows how inexperienced you guys are.

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hahahahahhaahahaahahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahahaha .... inexperienced .... hahahahahahaahahahahaah no no no i cant take it anymore ... the noobness .... the foolishness... the retardness... hahahahahahahahahaahah :D :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by thecaracal

Let me see if I can translate this from Elitish. I believe it reads, "Zauper, I thought we were friends. You're doing what's right for your kingdom, but it's bad for my kingdom. All you had to do was sit and wait for us to get stronger before fighting us, and that would make you a good person."

What an awful ad hominem. Come on Elit. You can construct better arguments than this if you want to say they're a weaker kd.

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You do realize the long cf AMA gave Havoc was at beginning of age and based on good relations and was also FREE. If we knew havoc would play dirty like this and decide to end good relations out of pure greed and no self confidence (afraid we war pyro first when they have pumped for 9 weeks) they would have never had a cf like this and would have been taken down earlier in age same way they lost to BB and us last 2 ages. Get real, it's a 2 way street.

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There is more to top play than warring. Considering you were at a constant "disadvantage" shows how inexperienced you guys are.

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Ok let's keep this to some kind of facts please lol. This was our warring age, hence the Polar Bears tag. The fact that we were a top 3 kd late age just shows how bad the competition is in the game right now. It's not exactly the "Golden Age" of Utopia.

Feel free to chat with any of the better players in the game and get any of them to say Elit or our kingdom is "inexperienced" that isn't biased and I'll give you 100 credits. I do pay my bets ask around, I'll go 2:1 odds vs u, you loose u just owe me 50 k ? :P

Almost every core member of ama is ex leader or have played in a concul in strong kds from the silver and golden age of utopia. We have almost no new players here (new is playing less than 2 years this game). Who was ur kd again wickedfail? I've been in this game for almost 14 years and have no bloody idea who u are :D

inexperienced - hahahahahahaahaahahahahaah looooooool

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Originally Posted by Elit

I made 2 reasonable offers to GB alliance but they don't care about fair play and don't want to accept them.
Sad :(

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What were your reasonable offers?

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Originally Posted by thecaracal

Let me see if I can translate this from Elitish. I believe it reads, "Zauper, I thought we were friends. You're doing what's right for your kingdom, but it's bad for my kingdom. All you had to do was sit and wait for us to get stronger before fighting us, and that would make you a good person."

What an awful ad hominem. Come on Elit. You can construct better arguments than this if you want to say they're a weaker kd.

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CR offered to increase notice to 4 days and war the winner if pyro / AMA agreed to not b2b war.

1. To give him crown
2. CR and pyro wd from crown race
:)

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Originally Posted by Zauper

CR offered to increase notice to 4 days and war the winner if pyro / AMA agreed to not b2b war.

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This is what I don't get, why wasn't this taken? Whether its 4 days or 6 days or whatever.

Sounds reasonable :D. I told him to make a 3rd offer. Province honor, land and NW crowns + undead land/nw crown :P, he ignored me :/

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Originally Posted by flogger

This is what I don't get, why wasn't this taken? Whether its 4 days or 6 days or whatever.

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Because AMA realised they would lose to Pyro so they took the easy way out: Dealbreaking CR

The last 30 pages or so is just rambling of bad excuses so it wont look as bad and weak as it really is. Reality is, after remote screwed over AMA CR did give AMA the deal they wanted. But because AMA realised they still couldnt win, despite being given what they wanted, they came up with the briliant excuse that CR had been "disrespectful" in forums and dealings with them, and that was cause enough to dealbreak.

If it looks like ****, and smells like ****, then it most likely is ****.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

What were your reasonable offers?

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1.) He demanded that we all self raze and gift Elit the crown he thinks he's "entitled" to.
2.) We all self-raze out of the top 10

That's his idea of diplomacy.

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Originally Posted by Drixx

1.) He demanded that we all self raze and gift Elit the crown he thinks he's "entitled" to.
2.) We all self-raze out of the top 10

That's his idea of diplomacy.

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Yeah that was hysterical :D Trolling like a baws!

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Originally Posted by Zauper

What were your reasonable offers?

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You should talk to AB he thinks we should all raze ourselves out of t10, do you remember any post-awar settlements where the party gbed ended up having to essentially delete, the ones I've seen basically offered cfs and that was it but you've been playing longer than i have.

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Originally Posted by flogger

This is what I don't get, why wasn't this taken? Whether its 4 days or 6 days or whatever.

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This was only offered after we ate razes from ex-mercy/havoc player, prior to that it was not even an option. That deal precluded b2b war which takes several strategies off the table, do you enjoy fighting with both hands tied behind your back? Its essentially a farmd eal for havoc as whoever wins that fight is going to come out real battered and gets vultured right after by a kd thats pumping for 10 weeks.

They had every single advantage imaginable and could have afforded to be graceful, let us war pyro 1v1 and war for #1 2 weeks t before the eoa. Thats what kds with supposed good relations do. They benefitted from elits friendly long term cf at beginning of round which allowed them to get into their position as opposed to losing to ama again, had we no cf we'd have just taken havoc out after their fight ended with bb oow.

How's your azn gf doin, working dat eggroll eh?

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Originally Posted by Drixx

1.) He demanded that we all self raze and gift Elit the crown he thinks he's "entitled" to.
2.) We all self-raze out of the top 10

That's his idea of diplomacy.

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I think you are confusing this with the province crown you felt you have won 4 weeks prior to eoa that you were "entitled" to. Same way you were entitled to get 70k acres from pewpew in a week last age because they farmed you when you tried to explore without cfs. TAke your head out of your batty please.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

You should talk to AB he thinks we should all raze ourselves out of t10, do you remember any post-awar settlements where the party gbed ended up having to essentially delete, the ones I've seen basically offered cfs and that was it but you've been playing longer than i have.

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Most end in CFs with deals for moving forward. My understanding is that they're looking for you to drop out of the crown race this age, which seems reasonable and a deal for moving forward. In awars, that has handled things like doubling / etc. I think in this situation, they're looking to create a top code of ethics, which might be nice for preventing all the ****play of late. The issue, of course, is enforcement.

I can't recall any awar / gb in which all parties razed down after, though they often cost the participants a shot at the crown.

Flogger: shai is quite literally correct, and that's what cello / elit have said. They didn't believe they could fight pyro on even grounds / win a war vs pyro, so they decided to deal break instead of taking the fair deal. Even in the logs elit posted of him talking to cj, cj mentions the offer.

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Originally Posted by Proteus

You do realize the long cf AMA gave Havoc was at beginning of age and based on good relations and was also FREE. If we knew havoc would play dirty like this and decide to end good relations out of pure greed and no self confidence (afraid we war pyro first when they have pumped for 9 weeks) they would have never had a cf like this and would have been taken down earlier in age same way they lost to BB and us last 2 ages. Get real, it's a 2 way street.

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"I thought we were friends. You're doing what's right for your kingdom, but it's bad for my kingdom. We would never do this to you!"

I like how Proteus thinks that AMA extended a CF to us before the age started as an act of charity and not a strategic move for them to be able to remove their top competition early while they warred the rest.

Had you not had that CF, Proteus, you'd have ended up where BB did: coming out of a war vs a ghetto and us waving you with 20k extra land.

lol at all these posts, some of you guys are hypocrits & others are down right arrogant to say the least..

Proteus: no ex CR player razed you. Stop claiming it or come up with proof. This is the third or fourth time I've seen that false accusation.

Well All in all the thing is over and we need to move on .. with all the comming hammering and yelling and name calling ofc, but still. It is kind of funny however as things turned out. Had you asked me 2 weeks ago how things would look right about now, my best guess would be something excatly like this .. except ofc that Pyro would have a 4/4 and CR still a 0/0 ;-)

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Originally Posted by guard14n

The idea of rules for the game is nice by itself but impossible to become reality. In order to have fair play u need rules - thats correct but in order those rules to be applied fair u need a judge and like the people are not judges in RL the community here cant be judge by itself. If u get a rulebook of some sort and lets say some kd screws up and PR the whole thing arround (we have some good tallents here) who is to say who is right or wrong? Its not the community over all its the top kds - ergo the most powerful kds.Kingdoms at top CANNOT judge other kds. Meaning that if people who judge are involved in any part (does not matter how tiny the involvment is) they cant be honest judges and say - this kd did wrong and it deserves GB. If that happens thats not fairplay thats bullying and powerplaying and whenever u have an aggressor u have resistance as well which renders the rulebook mute. If u write down rules kds that do wrong must be judged by a neutral party with no affiliation with any kd of what so ever like a moderator/admin or w/e (very unlikely). If not the idea is just temporary big talk with no real meaning behindit ergo - useless.

The movement right now is also useless considering that if the kds does not have common enemy they will make one. This is a war game and everything here is about interest, this age, next age or w/e its all about interest. People here ****play, manipulate and powerplay every time and it cant be stopped. U are trying to police one dealbreak (of a dealbreak but w/e) now but from here on u have 2 choices only - 1st create a big alliance and keep GB all that dont agree with u; 2nd forget that ever happened after 1-2 ages and keeps ****playing ur mates when they become ur enemies.

The whole thing is pointless and everyone with a brain (not u Anri put down ur hand) will understand what im talking about.

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+1 ...

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Originally Posted by Zauper

Most end in CFs with deals for moving forward. My understanding is that they're looking for you to drop out of the crown race this age, which seems reasonable and a deal for moving forward. In awars, that has handled things like doubling / etc. I think in this situation, they're looking to create a top code of ethics, which might be nice for preventing all the ****play of late. The issue, of course, is enforcement.

I can't recall any awar / gb in which all parties razed down after, though they often cost the participants a shot at the crown.

Flogger: shai is quite literally correct, and that's what cello / elit have said. They didn't believe they could fight pyro on even grounds / win a war vs pyro, so they decided to deal break instead of taking the fair deal. Even in the logs elit posted of him talking to cj, cj mentions the offer.

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Do you personally think its not hypocritcal for kingdoms that themselves have openly engaged in ****play to come up with rules of 'fair play?' The problem here is people arbitrarily action stuff but the group currently GBing us has done shady things in many ages including this current one.

There are also different ways of dropping out of the crown race (i.e. EOA naps) vs deleting your kingdom.

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Originally Posted by Godly

I like how Proteus thinks that AMA extended a CF to us before the age started as an act of charity and not a strategic move for them to be able to remove their top competition early while they warred the rest.

Had you not had that CF, Proteus, you'd have ended up where BB did: coming out of a war vs a ghetto and us waving you with 20k extra land.

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Ever consider we'd have a different strategy and not war the ghetto? Also you can't wave us and BB at the same time, and you risk being picked up by another kd after if you dont force war.

Wait, havoc people...... did gacib really raze AMA's bank and then you guys complain and get the whole server to gangbang someone who dealbroke you? I'd f'in dealbreak you too.

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Originally Posted by flogger

Wait, havoc people...... did gacib really raze AMA's bank and then you guys complain and get the whole server to gangbang someone who dealbroke you? I'd f'in dealbreak you too.

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lol wut?

Wasn't Gacib. We found out about it the same time as AMA did: after we saw it in the news.

edit: OMG I just realized that Flogger played in Mercy which is where TheRock led. The plot thickens!

I see some people asking why should Pyros be gaining acres out of all these, and I will be addressing this issue.

First, I think it's pretty clear that Pyro isnt at fault before the dealbreak that occured (AMA waving CR before CF is up). We were sitting at #2 and waiting to see what's happening around, and were in pump builds. This was some days before notice period is up.

Any neutral observer here would say that AMA is definitely guilty for dealbreaking, but CR is not totally innocent and has some fault. I would say that they did the diplo negotiating badly to some extent. Most would think that AMA's dealbreaking ranks higher on the ****play level.

Then the dealbreak occurred. Initially, Pyros didnt know what to do, whose side to be on. At the start, it seemed like AMA was doing this to have their '1-time' revenge off and were going to intra-raze acres and drop out of the crown after things are over. But, is it still right to deal break? In addition, several leadership members of AMA backtracked on their words after sometime and no one from the top felt that they could understand what AMA is plotting.

In addition, our only small chance of winning the crown legitly (which is to b2b wars with AMA and CR) was taken away from us. I dont like how people say we have 0 chance in winning b2b wars. I prefer the words 'low chance' and Pyros was prepared to beat AMA and lose to CR (if so). At least we go down fighting. However, after AMA cows got razed by the mysterious ghetto, AMA didnt want to war Pyro anymore. I dont think it's fair that Pyros only possibility to win the crown legitly is taken away from us like this, especially with AMA's decision to raze CR.

Once again, Pyros do not like the words 0 chance in winning b2b wars. We prefer the words 'low chance'. We come from a top warring tier background

So comes down to the question on why pyro is taking acres? (more importantly, some acres)

First, if the community could notice, we been tracking our hits very carefully, and planned to have CR ending up at the same size as us (and we did a good job with this). This is so that there would be no loss of acres from razing and wasted time on that. In addition, we have done both razes + TMs.. and our TMs have been controlled. If Pyros wanted to, we could have just TM all acres, and we will nett much much more from it. at least 30k (we nett about 15k from the TMs this war i think. havent formatted papers). And we could have easily keep tapping all of AMA's cows. But this isnt fair for CR, and we know that. We only did 4 big prov taps total in a 48hrs war, and this is with Pyros having 5 big provinces. (4 big prov taps from 5 pyros big provinces). CR also didnt want us to raze the cow acres because this would take away acres for CR's cows too. And we controlled our core hits.

Second, if Pyros were to just raze acres, CR is going to be massively larger than Pyros again post war... and we're basically helping out to be owned later on? You can call Pyros self-centered... but it is difficult to convince Pyros leadership to get us oo help out and then allow us to be owned later on by the same kingdom we helped. In addition, if we were to do only razes, it means that our originally legit chance to war for the crown is totally lost because we step in. Maybe Pyros leadership aint perfect enough to be total saints.

The coalition also agreed on that pyro-cr war should occur later in the age to determine a rightful crown winner, ceterus paribus. Again, the crown is already tainted, and at least this is trying to save a small part of it's legitness.

I hope this answers the community's question on why Pyros is taking some acres. Please note that the above are answers only to the question on why we are taking acres.

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Regarding on Pyros stance on this gb, Nesta & Me will issue our statement later.

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-cJ

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Originally Posted by flogger

Wait, havoc people...... did gacib really raze AMA's bank and then you guys complain and get the whole server to gangbang someone who dealbroke you? I'd f'in dealbreak you too.

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I think we had a player named Gacib, but he was around 300 acres when we razed AMA. This guy isn't good at all. He just happend to land into a kingdom that got ****played by AMA and that payback when it hurts the most.