Please stop the "we support democracy" stuff

RAKIdaRHINO,

there is nothing wrong about what you just said, but the fact is, even though we have bigger problems than terrorism, we still don't have a solution for it. i think the fact that we have a problem that we don't know how to fix is what makes us waste so much on trying to fix it the only ways we can think of. maybe we're making the problem worse, but does it matter? in the end, the u.s. is going to be brought back down to the level of the rest of the world.

kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall, there is nothing new under the sun

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Originally Posted by AFKain

Göring was commenting on how a democratic country can be dragged into a war by the will of the leader(s), you don't think that it would be possible to use that definition to describe what GWB did?

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The quote is from when they're discussing the richstag fire and Herman Göring suggests that in order to start a war countries stage violent acts or similar to get the people behind them. The quote would be accurate if the americans would have planned and carried out the attacks on 9/11 by themselves. Some do belive the did, but let's not get into that.

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Originally Posted by RAKIdaRHINO

i know very well where the quote is from.. and no, i wasnt comparing nazi germany to america. and hate is too strong of a word because the people in these regions dont hate each other.. not in general. Visit them and youll see for yourself.

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You're right, people in these regions don't hate eachother. They hate the americans and the brittish. And not all people hate them (some just dislike them), but those who becomme terrorists do. The question is why they hate them, do they have grounds for it?
I've lived in Saudi Arabia so I know very well what people are like in this particular area of the world. They're hospitable, honest and polite imshallah.

My sister lost her wallet in the Souk in Riyadh when she noticed we considered it to be gone and we started walking back to the car to go home and cancel cards etc. When we're walking by a shop a man comes running out shouting after us, in his hand is the wallet. He had found it on the street outside his shop and noticed a picture of a westerner inside. Since we were the only westerners to have passed in a while he recoginzed us when we came back and came running after us to return it. Everything was still in the wallet and he refused a finders fee. What western city could this happen in?

On another occation we had to service our car so we went to a shop and he had a look at it. He said he didn't have time right then, but if we came back the next day he would have it fixed ... imshallah. My dad then asked what it would cost and the man said 500 riyals ... imshallah. So, the next day we go to pick up the car only to be told that it's not done. The car was still standing in the exact same spot as we had left it and when we asked when it would be done he answered tomorrow ... imshallah. The next day the same thing happened and after that we just called him to see if the car was ready. It took 2 weeks and he charged 2500 riyals and I personally don't think he even touched the car, but it's not like we could argue about it. He would be right, he never promised anything, he left it in the hands of god and this is a permittable excuse in Saudi Arabia.

On a third occation (this was after the american invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the attitude towards westerners had changed drastically) we were out driving in the Desert when all of a sudden someone fired a shot close to our car. We turned around figuring we weren't welcome and set up camp for the night a couple of miles away. Later on 4 people come riding towards our camp on dromedars, all 4 have rifles and we assumed they are the ones who shot at us. 3 of them stay behind and the 4th rides up to us. When he gets close he askes us if we're americans, we answer him "no, we're swedish". After he said this he called to the others telling them that we're not americans but swedish. His face changed completely and broke out in a big smile. After this they let my sisters ride on their camels and they let us fire their rifles, we had a really good time with them. However, I still wonder what would have happened if we would have been americans and said so.

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Originally Posted by AFKain

1.4 billion people live on less than $1.25 per day. Now take in the cost of the War on Terror. Actually finding a number for it is hard, because no one really seems to know how much ill cost, but lets use congress own numbers and go with 1 trillion dollars (a low figure, to be quite honest).

Over 50000 people in detroit is disconnected from the water system.

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The number I have heard is 3 trillion, but that's beside the point. What did this money go to? Where and on who was it spent? A substantual amount of the money has gone to paying salaries of soldiers in Iraq, a lot have gone to buying bombs, missiles etc most of it produced in the US, some of it have gone to american coorporations such as Halliburton to help rebuild Iraq after the war. Almost all the money have gone back to the US. This war is providing jobs for millions of americans, how much would it have cost the US not to go to war? Can the US sustain their economy without a war? You say 1.4B people live on $1.25 per day or less, but you can't live on this amount in america (actually, you probarbly can, but I wouldn't try it).

How many people would be disconnected from the watersystem in the US if they were not in a war against terror?

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The quote is from when they're discussing the richstag fire and Herman Göring suggests that in order to start a war countries stage violent acts or similar to get the people behind them. The quote would be accurate if the americans would have planned and carried out the attacks on 9/11 by themselves. Some do belive the did, but let's not get into that.

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Göring: "Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is
understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who
determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the
people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or
a parliament, or a communist dictatorship."

Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some
say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the
United States only Congress can declare wars."

Göring: "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the
bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them
they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in
any country."

So in the second paragraph, which is what we're talking about (or at least I am), Göring says that a democratic country can be brought into a war using a method of portraying someone as an enemy that is attacking the democratic country. Exactly what GWB did with Sadam. And you might want to have another look at how you quote in that last post.

yeah, sorry. I missunderstood your intended meaning.

metallica

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there is nothing wrong about what you just said, but the fact is, even though we have bigger problems than terrorism, we still don't have a solution for it.

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you dont really have a solution for terrorism either it seems. And quite frankly, if you dont have a solution you get one. Its about priorities, nothing more.

neder
the quote seems very accurate as is, its quite open for interpretation.

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You're right, people in these regions don't hate eachother. They hate the americans and the brittish.

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quite honesltly the majority of these people dont really give a **** about brits or americans, they have other concerns in life. Of course the invasion of iraq and afghanistan with all its mistakes will get you some negative attention, but that has very little to do with the general situation. I think you should watch the news less and get some less biased information about the attitutudes of prople in the middle east (and the rest of the world)

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Everything was still in the wallet and he refused a finders fee. What western city could this happen in?

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Well, id like to think most of them. Europe hasnt gone that bad at least. Yes, cultures and attitudes are slightly different, but in the end most people around the world are loving caring respectful individuals that like doing the right thing.

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He would be right, he never promised anything, he left it in the hands of god and this is a permittable excuse in Saudi Arabia.

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I think alot of people in the west can speak of stories just like it. As the one above its hardly something distinct to these regions imo.

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Almost all the money have gone back to the US

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and investing the same money on American soil wouldnt have achieved more for the country? Either way you look on it its money spent on a war that couldve been spent elsewhere.

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You say 1.4B people live on $1.25 per day or less, but you can't live on this amount in america

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Obviously, but thats beyond the point. My argument was that if even a third of the money would be spent towards actually stabilizing the world (by giving more people access to water etc.) youd end up with better results for less money. And you know what? This money too could be paid to american workers, companies and the likes. Its not so much the money invested in the war thats the problem, its what the money couldve been invested for otherwise - nationionally and/or internationally.

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How many people would be disconnected from the watersystem in the US if they were not in a war against terror?

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Well, the current politics in many regions seem to favor the situation since its a step towards privatiziation. So its hard to really answer that question. If less money were dumped in to the war there would obviously be enough money to ensure that people could afford running water though, but if its not the goal it matters little. In the end its all politics.

(And AFKain its hardly only relevant regarding Saddam.)

what planet did you say you're from RAKIdaRHINO?

Democracy is not for the people.

im from mars. marsian rhinos ftw. dont tell anyone though.

"you dont really have a solution for terrorism either it seems. And quite frankly, if you dont have a solution you get one. Its about priorities, nothing more."

what is going to undo a religious extremist interpretation and perception of the rest of the world?

a psychologist? got any better ideas?

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you dont really have a solution for terrorism either it seems.

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I do. Quit pissing the rest of the world off with our smug superiority complex.

"Quit pissing the rest of the world off with our smug superiority complex."

everyone has a superiority complex, its human nature

it known more commonly as loyalty

METALLICA
yes, i already gave you quite a few better ideas.. reducing starvation, lack of water and poverty is one good step towards a more peaceful world, believe it or not. Fight injustice and conflict, dont create it.

and tbh i dont have a superiority complex, and im quite human. human nature is a weak excuse for all the aspects of ourselves we dont like..

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everyone has a superiority complex, its human nature

it known more commonly as loyalty

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WHAT? better go look up the definition for the word loyalty....

"human nature is a weak excuse for all the aspects of ourselves we dont like.."

it could be used as an excuse. on the other hand, i do not think that all problems can be solved just by acting differently and changing lifestyles and standards of living. humans are just a wiser animal, but acknowledging that fact doesn't make them capable. humans are flawed, and in my opinion many of those flaws are automatic

"WHAT? better go look up the definition for the word loyalty...."

i was thinking more in terms of patriotic loyalty/blind support for something simply by association. take the u.s. supporting israel as an example

The first step towards change is acknowledging that you can change.