Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt... Guess you never learnt this one Elit at school? :P
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Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt... Guess you never learnt this one Elit at school? :P
Greaser said something I've wanted to said, albeit in a much harsher fashion.
No, ama dealbreaking is what cause us this painfull event. Nothing elseQuote:
Originally Posted by Lupine
this is the same bs **** play you try to impose on ghettos (guess it is all part of your fair play initiative) telling them they are unbalanced kd and you are doing them a favor take down their big provs so they can find wars... who the f*** are you to find anyone a war find yourself a F******* war you coward.. you have no idea what ghetto goal is the strat or what are playing for..Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Thanks for the answer to my question. Who did what and why has been discussed enough, it's not in my interested. I'm curious though, was it only a standard cf? Elits suggests in his first post #27 that "deal we made with zauper last age don't let you interfere", can someone explain what that is about exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
....aaaand that's why this isn't going to get resolved and no one likes your Fair Play Alliance
Your **** play on AMA caused it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
If proper diplomacy were established earlier none of this **** would happen. well if you have not threatened ama about the 2v1 situation, they might not act poorly and decided to get as low as this. Ama felt threatened and cornered in this one, so they react. You can't possibly deny you have 0 responsibilty in ama deal breaking. Karma bites you know
His action may have contradict to his words. But you have no right to tell them what strategy they should play and whether or not they should keep the cow acres if they were going for ww or honor. Yes you can prove them wrong, but you can't just take them as you like. They were punished with 5 pk and payback for the land they cost on CR. So now you think the cow acres are unnecessary for their future agenda, might as well you claim them rightfully?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
If you get notice from other top 10 kd you cant get notice from second kd for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
For those that said Pyros agreed to raze those acres gained:, you are trying to spin a story that we agreed to raze before joining the conflict. these are the terms that all kingdoms that joined the alliance had to agree
1) Havoc wars AMA. Only Pyro/Havoc are free to use all attacks. (As agreed by Parth/topsy). Others MUST Raze or bounce/massacre all hits into the war.
2) Havoc razes down to equal size of Pyro during eowcf after they have taken land bonus (Regardless on amount of acres gained in the war)
3) Pyro / Havoc are free to hit each other 96 hours after eowcf with AMA/Havoc has passed. This gives both kds 8 days preparation time which will start from the eow msg. Havoc must inform Pyro as soon as the war has ended. The 8 days start when AMA has WD from the war.
4) Any kingdom helping out in the gb is entitled to an EOACF with havoc or a 96 hour notice CF with Havoc. The kingdoms helping get to choose which deal they would prefer. The notice if 96 hours is chosen can't be given in war/eowcf or BEFORE Havoc vs pyro war takes place.
1)+2) clearly shows that we dont need to raze any acres. In fact, like I mentioned earlier, we could have easily nett 30+k acres (instead of ~13k) if we just trad all the way. And we only did 4 cow hits (deep into war protection, for a total of ~2.9k acres i think. or less).. and the reason why AMA still has those banks is because CR instructed us to focus on razing killing provs+hitting elves.
If you want to say that we agreed to raze acres, you should at least STATE that it was mentioned at around 8-9hrs before we officially pulled out, and that is not a certainty given how things have panned out during the next 8-9hrs and external advice we have received. And that was mentioned at the point in time and then we decided to continue razing for another 8-9hrs before we pulled out.
At least get your timings right + facts right before stating things, because as far as I can see, people are painting that Pyros agreed to raze acres at the start
-cJ
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
Lol, I just saw this. Had to edit it into my post. Thanks for publicly saying that we are HONOURABLE enough to not TM anymore acres despite having the capability to do so :) Because we followed what the group (mainly CR leading the gb strategy) wanted. Of course my guys are going to ask to do TMs, but did they? Nope, we stopped them.
lol.
Pyro and CR war still going on? or cancelled? Just move on people! why all the spotlight on Elit while another good fight is around the corner!!
I respect Pyro's decission to step out of the GB due to Ama/pb having suffered enough, but I can't respect leaving your buddies hanging like that. You enter a GB with x number of KDs, so you fight with them until the situation has been resolved. You can't leave the others with open relations vs ama, well knowing they will get declared on. You gained 13-14k off the backs of Ama, leave your GB party prematurely, keep and pump into your new GB acres. Thats not fair to anyone, and I doubt you will get on amas good side cuz you already gbed them + gained a ****ton of their acres.
I say all Fairplay Alliance members just accept the damn CF they desired, stop PK. and let Elit troll his age. He can do whatever he wants, ww or honor as long as he don't mess with t10 anymore this age. The consequence of you decline a cf caused ama to declare rbl. See where the old path got into?
if CR wants a shot at the crown, best they consider the CF and stop doing meaningless razes out to ghettos helping Ama. Prepare themselves for upcoming war with Pyro, and stop whinning having insufficient time while Pyro went fort and pump yadda yaadda blah blah.. you have your eowcf and a proper CF from Elit.
They aren't their buddies.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCurious
It's naive to think AMA will submit to anyone. For breaking a CF deal in the manner they did, AMA had a coming punishment. However, what is going on now will achieve nothing but to fuel AMAs motivation to keep this fight going into next age. That is evident for anyone with the slightest sense of human relations. The idea of a fair play alliance falls on itself when it's leaders are people like Anri who so blatantly are out for vengeance on someone that has bullied and ridiculed them for ages. I see members of this fair play alliance being/acting flabbergasted why there's people outside of AMA supporting them. Let me tell you I do not condone AMAs dealbreak, but a biased judge has no moral high ground and cannot serve punishment for "unfair play", and the level of hypocrasy amongst these people are a detriment to your cause. To the people that's actually trying to resolve this situation by diplomacy. You cannot fault Elit for being uncooperative when you are doing diplomacy with a knife to his throat.
Solving this situation can only be done by action. Not action as in authorative violence but actions of good faith. As such, all attacks must cease now. Otherwise we will have an alliance war next age, no doubt about that.
The primary problem that I've seen is that we have two parties who aren't really willing to budge due to past grudges and vendettas. It's hard to make sure everyone is accounted for when no one wants to make any reasonable compromises. Pyros was hard-pressed to make any real decision that would make everyone happy, and in the end became embroiled in the bitterness of the past. Of course, it could then be asked, "Why join GB to begin with?" which is certainly a valid question and is why I recommended against participating in the gb to begin with - it would inevitably lead to Pyros being sucked into situations they had no business sticking their noses in.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCurious
There's really no going back now, though, and the situation itself as it stands could be looked at from multiple perspectives:
1. Both Pyros and Havoc should keep acres because it was what was originally agreed to when gb started.
2. Havoc deserves the acres it gained because they were dealbroke and are back where they started, and Pyros should raze down to equalize.
3. Neither Pyros nor Havoc should have gained acres from this (because Havoc is only up acres after being dealbroke due to gb) and both should raze down
All three are valid in some respects, and it's really up to the parties involved to decide where this will go.
I see Pyro have at lest one smart person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare_
CJ/Nesta made really big mistake take part from GB. If GB was good solution on problems why last age AMA/BB/EJ accepted deal what no one from us wanted to accept?
GB only bring problems in long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
No. It's not. It was caused by you dealbreaking. That's like saying someone who got killed by a drunk driver was the cars fault.
No it was a proper CF negotiation to expire on x with a notice of x hours. AMA broke it and waved before x date without any x notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
Never thought I'd say this to a post you made but +1.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCurious
We don't trust elit's word so we need evidence of him forfeiting. We told him to either make a public thread stating he would not go for crown (os if he did we could re-gb) or for him to raze acres off those banks so he couldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupine
He did neither.
Allies/Buddies. Same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Why we need acres of banks razed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minty
Pyro only helped when they were allowed to TM into the war and gain acres. When they were told they were to Raze AMA's banks they swiftly backed out the GB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare_
Really terrible analogy. It's like you're not even trying. Drunk drivers don't aim to kill people and random pedestrians don't provoke drunk drivers into hitting them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_mi
Ok, in palem metaphorolagy.
That's like shooting someone for saying "Hey lets fight" and blaming the gun.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elit
The first statement might be true, and I will leave that to cJ/Nesta to address because it's not my business. However, this is not really relevant at this point, because that was the agreement made between Havoc and Pyros. We're not squeaky clean either, but it is already assumed that all parties are guilty of some form of wrong-doing or shady play.Quote:
Originally Posted by American Badass
Your second one is misleading. It is not because we were told to raze AMA's banks that we opted out of GB. More likely is the idea that enough is enough, and there was no longer a need to do so.
+1 (This forum really needs a +1 or "Like" ticker.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunch
Truer words haven't been said. This thing where CR imposes tax or dictates who people can war, why they can war and how they can war needs to stop. This is partially what started this mess. This takes power playing to a completely different level and unbalances the game. Why do you think this is even good for the game Maximouse? This makes it no fun for others no more then AMA deal breaking. You act like a dictator bullying with these types of demands.
Here's to Age 61 A Cold War Ensues!
Until CR actually has a few "real" wars against top notch waring kingdoms and a few "win" notches on their belt they cannot possibly dictate how kingdoms go about their wars. They have absolutely NO experience to justify it. Anyone can sit on their provinces fat asses all age exploring, farming ghettos and pumping science all age. That doesn't make you a good kingdom with a wealth of knowledge that demands respect. A good kingdom is defending themselves from an alliance of aggressors in back-2-back wars all age (and winning) without more then a few days to pump and STILL growing to the same size as a kingdom who sat in CF for 3/4 of the age safely whoring and pumping.
In either case no kingdom good, bad, large or small, sk or ghetto should be conducting business the way CR is with war manipulation.
"Why we need banks acres razed" what? What is that gonna achieve? What is your endgame here? So that AMA can't ****play someone in the last second of age and hand crown from one kd to another? You create a situation when they will do just that in the next age, and the next.
I think it is time all the razes to stop and some cf deal to be put in place, what is going on now sux and it is way over all limits of punishment. I have had business with CR leadership and I believe that they should also be punished, and not to be given a chance to win the age. Also do all kingdoms involved believe that will end this age? If you guys continue like this many people will actually quit the game after their kingdoms get bashed every age, I can name atleast 4-5 of the kingdoms that atm raze AMA that will disband after next age, cause knowing Elit and AMA this will not end. So again word of advice cf the freaking top and stop it I think AMA got punished enough.
The issue is that when you agree to something like a gb you aren't the one who get's to say when enough is enough, it's the other kd(in this case ama). You may have discussed a deal with them but you certainly didn't finalize it. Yesterday we discussed a deal with them that even people who are opposed to the GB thought was reasonable(wouldn't even need to raze cows). They rejected it because they demanded that Rage WD so as to give them a free WW.
That's also true. It's pretty much catch 22, no matter how people go about it. However, it would have been preferable if all parties involved had thrown away notions of distrust. Let's say elit had, in fact, dealbroken again afterward. That would make all KDs involved justified in GBing him again, and it would've been fine. There would be no opposition to a 2nd gb because it would be his fault. I fail to understand why that wasn't realized, unless it was already understood and people just wanted to make sure they got their proper KD/province crowns and prevent AMA from having any opportunity to steal it away (which is laughable).Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
Wouldn't that be considered a fake war and get thier monarch deleted and thier war wins reset like it happened to strippers a couple of ages ago?
Those people that read through entire thread and are keeping this going deserve a reward imo.
It was understood nightmare, and it is why cf proposals were offered. If there was 0 ability for any of us to trust elit then a cf of any kind wouldn't be offered. The problem isn't us offering cf proposals or being willing to, it's Elit being unwilling to accept them.
Topsy, from what I've been shown, elit had already agreed to certain terms (EoA CF with all KDs, won't go for crown, etc.) before declaring war on Rage. The only thing he disagreed to was razing his banks down to 10k. Tell me, if this was understood, then why did "Fair Play" Alliance decide not to take this deal? It really was as easy as that. He's now being more stubborn because more of his provs are being razed down. The opportunity for resolution was certainly there, but it wasn't taken because of these notions of "distrust," and all for the protection of the crown or something of that sort.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
man, 117 pages. lots of hate in this past couple of age - and I bet you when you guys all meet in person, you'll be all laughing and getting drunk. :)
He wanted to be #3, with 3 of the largest banks, with about 20+k acres in whoring provs due to war, with a cf with all but legacy and any other kd he thought he could still rape in war with the guarantee that he would never raze any acres. And this of course is only if it was a deal he actually wanted and not just something he'd entertain to nesta/cj while a deal much different was being offered at the same time. 1 day later no more provs had been pk'd but he was sufficiently small where a deal was offered that would still have clauses in it to not go over a certain size but wouldn't require the razing of acres. He rejected this one because he demanded that the deal not end with a mp between rage and ama but a WW for ama. Agreeing to a deal that gives a WW to 1 kd is clearly against game rules and so his proposal was rejected.
I won't contest the rejection of the WW condition, because I wouldn't agree to it either. However, what I'm alluding to here is the proposal that was offered before the war with Rage. Even if AMA did war Legacy (which would be unlikely given Legacy vs. Pewpew was looming) and had ended up choosing acres as reward instead of honor, that would've been clear reason to raze AMA down again to appropriate size in EoWCF. That's what I'm saying. There were checks and balances in place that would ensure AMA wouldn't crown. From my perspective, the original proposal that elit agreed to before declaring Rage was reasonable, and people didn't want to take it because it would hurt their crowning chances if AMA dealbroke again.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
My main motivation for even making these posts is to show that attempts at resolution were made, and opportunities to resolve this conflict were there, yet no one gives a damn and keeps parroting "oh, we tried real hard"
Its not my fault you rejected deal what we agree with Nesta and after it we declare Rage. You constant stall all diplo and situation change. Deal made 24h ago can look different now.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
Agreeing to any kind of outcome of the war is against the game rules not just warwin for one kd. :PQuote:
Agreeing to a deal that gives a WW to 1 kd is clearly against game rules and so his proposal was rejected.
I for one would welcome the moderators opinion here. The whole 12v1 GB into a war is already pretty "fuzzy" territory when it comes to the game's "wishful" standards on morals and ethics. Especially considering the turn of events and the blatant evidence that this has gone from serving a justifiable purpose on behalf of the sanctity of "sportsmanship" to obvious hateful spite and vengeance. I don't see how 2 kingdoms agreeing on an outcome that's due to ending the current situation is any different, especially if it leads to a constructive outcome for all players involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
We had all agreed to be in this until AMA cfed everyone that was involved within the GB. So basically Pyro went back on their word as an agreement everyone was happy with was not made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare_
(Btw what has Rage done this age that has been shady?)
[10:20] <&maximouse> CR will keep their word
[10:20] <@munk> wtf
[10:21] <@munk> i thought elit was cooler
[10:21] <&maximouse> and in no way will this action against ama be used to gain any advantage over pyro
[10:21] <&maximouse> munk, just focus on getting everybody acces:)
[10:21] <@NesTa13> we are here to make a stand. but I want the commitment of everyone to destroy them
======================================================================================
[10:27] <@NesTa13> just so we're on same page, if ama starts razing us full force and cr keeps chipping up the land. such that we fall to 140k and near like #3 spot. and cr ends back at 180k. how do we fix it? we dont want cr to landdrop back to 140k. because that means no cushion over #3
[10:27] <@munk> k
[10:27] <@munk> afk
[10:27] <@munk> bai!
02[10:28] * @munk has quit IRC (Quit: zzzzz...)
[10:28] <&maximouse> nesta, if that happens CR will keep going at ama untill they are all dead
[10:28] <@NesTa13> this is a very real situation
[10:28] <&maximouse> and after that we drop to the size your on aswell
[10:28] <&maximouse> or smaller
[10:29] <&maximouse> and I dont think its a realistic situation
[10:29] <&maximouse> once we declare they got -75 gains hitting out
[10:29] <@NesTa13> I rather cr returns acres?
[10:29] <&maximouse> if they dont focus on us it just means they go down 4 times faster
[10:29] <@NesTa13> like my point above
[10:29] <&maximouse> good aswell
[10:30] <&maximouse> you can get the acres then from us to fix it
01[10:30] <@AmericanBadass> Anri solution to tag "Fair Play" everyone so no one wins crown IMO is actually good to make a point
01[10:30] <@AmericanBadass> This way we can war after and anyone winning does not matter
[10:30] <&maximouse> and we cf after that to nulify relations
01[10:30] <@AmericanBadass> Then AMA can do wtf they want
[10:30] <@NesTa13> ok so I'll decide when time comes
03[10:30] <&maximouse> ab I like it, but too many people still value the crown at this point
01[10:30] <@AmericanBadass> (If ama continues being ****s etc)
[10:31] <@NesTa13> im more along the lines where we finish the age with eg. cr fair play or pyro fair play
[10:31] <&maximouse> nesta, you have my word that I will make CR do everything needed to compensate you guys if elit goes after you
[10:31] <@NesTa13> at least crown is still there and we know there's support of those who joined in the fair play movement
01[10:31] <@AmericanBadass> It'll highlight who actually is in this for the long run and not a cheap crown. We have seen what happened to EJ and SWEA when they ****ed over their allies
[10:31] <&maximouse> and to make sure you will be in the best position possible after this is all over
01[10:32] <@AmericanBadass> if someone would want to change their name last tick, it shows they'll never be trusted again and can have a cheap ****ty crown for their reputations to be destroyed
[10:32] <@NesTa13> ok I'll take your word for it maxi. we're going in full force
01[10:32] <@AmericanBadass> and expect zero help in future
[10:32] <&maximouse> yeah, we can and should unite under 1 name eoa no matter what
[10:33] <@NesTa13> how do we do opening
O yeah that was the other deal Elit wanted recently and still wants. He wanted a WW so he can drop out of the Land/NW chart. Obviously like stated here that is aganst the game rules and we will not warrant **** play.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
We will NOT help influence another chart to save our own one. Before this war and after the Havoc one we offered to land drop AMA to then be in a position to EARN the honorWW crown but they declined that offer.
We are sticking to the rules within this GB. If the game developers were against hitting into a war, you would not be able to do it. Maybe the developers need to add this as a feature but then more and more people would have fake wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greaser
I think everyone can tell here Rage won't WD from this war so if we do, that is shady, but that will not be happening. The admin leave us to police our own servers effectively being told to get on playing with the tools we are given. This is what we are doing.