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actually wolf knows more about what hes talking about than you do syiss.
also you realise that even with a double tap you effectively gain less due to knrg, please learn the system before you start trying to be smart with your flaming, or else flame without trying to use game facts you dont know or understand :)
When you said that it "takes skill" for a 20% smaller prov to break the bigger, then you suddenly agreed that he even could doubble tap.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
So decide, it's an ordinary thing or happens once in a while?
Or better...
Learn the damn game.
Please show me where I say the larger prov is more skillfull.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
Or better...
Learn to read.
Exactly my point. Why the smaller smaller province takes more than the bigger, to the extent that one vs. a kingdom can even gain land? No skill involved, just the skewed gains system of KRNG.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
As I already said (but you have to actually read what others say, not just yapping to show you're alive), there must be protection for the smaller. But not to the extend where the smaller can abuse it.
Where I said that I run the same? Don't put words in my mouth coz I will put a co_kie in yours in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
No, you didn't proved anything except that you have no idea to calculate your attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syiss
As you CAN nm, or CAN ns or CAN send mercs, the other guy CAN cast tw or CAN get soldier aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syiss
Not too many assuptions?
I'll tell you as a fact that the 20% bigger province will not doubble tap the other, except in very rare situations and he will constantly loose land if both kingdoms are equally active and skilled.
If you want to understand, do your own research, so you can't talk **** next time.
Why wouldn't the 25% larger kingdom declare and own the smaller kingdom? Don't agree with you about that scenario Wolf. I don't see kingdoms waving up 25%, they're not at an advantage in doing so. The problem with KNRG mainly concerns solo provinces.
So once again, the larger province is not playing more skillfully.Quote:
I'll tell you as a fact that the 20% bigger province will not doubble tap the other, except in very rare situations and he will constantly loose land if both kingdoms are equally active and skilled.
In an earlier post, you listed two provinces and assumed they both ran the same OPA/DPA. You listed several KDs, and made no distinction there either about differences in their strat.Quote:
Where I said that I run the same? Don't put words in my mouth coz I will put a co_kie in yours in return.
I would believe that, but there's too many flaws in the theory. First, he resorts to name calling, insults and epithets instead of proving his point. Second, it sounds like he is regurgitating what he hears or has heard from other people rather than understanding the game. Third, his math is flawed, he doesn't use or include the proper numbers to prove his point.Quote:
actually wolf knows more about what hes talking about than you do syiss.
Offense doesn't take skill, it simply takes number crunching. There are a host of programs and calculators that will do this for you. Defending your province takes skill. Defending your KD takes skill.
Bottom line, his argument attempts are implicitly supporting turtling, or bringing back turtling as the primary form of province building.
I said nothing about owning or not. I posted numbers about gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwalk
Do not mix what you "think" I said and what I said, please.
I think you agreee that, anytime, your kingdom would own a smaller kingdom from TF, even if they are the aggressor, but also your kingdom would own a 20% bigger TF kingdom.
I was talking about the sheer numbers of two wars in close vicinity of my island. Average gains.
I didn't said who won or why. At least you, should know the difference.
@ nfidel2k
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfDGrey
Again... WHERE for God's sake I said "I" run those numbers????Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
What I listed is the average Utopian province. I don't run that. Assuming, then rubbing on an assumption is pretty retarded, even for you.
Yea, sure. That's why I call you a smartass.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
You are assuming something moronic again, wich I never said and never will. If you understood THAT from what I said, you have big problems and I don't wonder why you probably suck at this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
Everyone who knows me and where I play, would agree, that I will never support turtling.
Of course you conveniently jump over what I said, that smaller kingdoms need some kind of protection, but not to the extend to transform them into the aggressor.
Well... you praise defending your province then you say that "I" support turtling? That's hilariously hypocritical.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
Removing the advantage that smaller provinces have against larger provinces implicitly supports turtling. Since you miss the basic logic, let me help you:Quote:
You are assuming something moronic again, wich I never said and never will. If you understood THAT from what I said, you have big problems and I don't wonder why you probably suck at this game.
Everyone who knows me and where I play, would agree, that I will never support turtling.
1. Assume that the advantage is removed for smaller provinces (essentially Max Gains is no longer +15% NW, but even NW or -% NW.)
2. The advantage now shifts to the larger provinces. (Logical explanation of the above statement.)
3. Turtling. Who will want to be the smaller province? Everyone will make a goal of being larger.
If that is not the point you are trying to make, explain IN GREATER DETAIL what you propose.
Now we're getting somewhere. This is the start of a real point, please explain.Quote:
Of course you conveniently jump over what I said, that smaller kingdoms need some kind of protection, but not to the extend to transform them into the aggressor.
See, I support the current gains system simply because in order to achieve max gains, you need to look for and target provinces that are larger than you. I am more than willing to hear an argument that explains why this is a bad system, but it needs to be clearly stated. So one more time; WHY does it need to change? WHAT is the problem with smaller provinces having the advantage over larger provinces?
Like 10 ages ago when I was leading Never Forget we would always run extreme suicide offense as Avians (6/4 elite allowed turtling) and wave Kingdoms 30% bigger. Back then you actually still had KNRG in war, which Mehul removed because it was retarded. But this KNRG abuse in war that got removed is still present when waving. If I was running an Orc or Dwarf Kingdom right now, I would prey on Dark Elves Kingdoms 30% bigger. The Dark Elves are pretty much forced to declare war ASAP to nullify KNRG or to offer a CF, because they would get farmed in Hostile.Quote:
I don't see kingdoms waving up 25%, they're not at an advantage in doing so.
What gains factor do you assume is applied in a 125% situation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
OH MY GOD! You really didn't understood anything... ok, so here it is...Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k
NOBODY here is discussing to remove the direct gains system, wich consists in giving best gains for a PROVINCE hitting around +15% NW up another PROVINCE, in whatever kingdom they would be.
We are discussing the "doubble tax" advantage wich comes if that province is in a smaller KINGDOM.
You see... there is
1) a province vs province calculation, wich is fine, and it's necesary to protect the smaller. That's the direct gain for hitting 15% up.
2) Kingdom Relative Networth Gains wich is another calculation. The smaller kingdom, just because it's smaller has a gain bonus. It's provinces get a "retal" bonus so they "can defend against bottomfeeding". At least that was the purpose for it's implementation.
The only problem is that, because this bonus is there ALLWAYS, some smart guys use it to be aggressors against bigger kingdoms.
That way, using both the Direct Gains System (for hitting 15% up) gains and KRNG bonuses stacked, they actually can easily bully bigger kingdoms, during hostile, and if they have good activity, for a good 36-48 hours into the war. After that the bigger kingdom can overcome, but if the smaller pull same numbers of attacks, they can safely WD at min time with loads of land.
Again, I'm talking about wars of active people with same skill.
THAT promotes stagnation and turtling, not the 15% province vs. province gains, because makes provinces to invest a lot in defence, instead of invest in growing.
And we are not finished. There is a third.
3) Gangbang Protection. If a province gets hit several times, people hitting him will get smaller and smaller gains.
Now combine this:
Province-A at 100% NW, in KD-A at 100% NW, having 20% Guard Stations,
hitting
Province-B at 115% NW in a KD-B at 120% NW, having no Guard Stations.
You see, Province-A searches for a province/kingdom that has no GS.
Hits once, if he doesn't get retalled, hits again and again, possibly different provinces. If he does get retalled, he has 2 protections allready on him so his gains are bigger anyway.
When he gets back several retal hits, the third protection comes into place, Gangbang Protection... And then, his enemies will hit for 20-30 acres while he's doing 500 acres hits. The kingdom he have hit into, have to mobilise too much force to get him, while they possibly get hit by other kingdoms too, and that makes them stagnating, so they will turtle to avoid the situation.
So if you thought I support turtleing, you can see now that in fact those who don't want KRNG gains adjusted or fixed, support that.
Gangbang protection if fine. Direct gains system (+15%) is fine.
KRNG is skewed too much towards smaller kingdoms, so they become aggressors. Wich is not normal, if we think that we want top kingdoms out of reach so they don't harass ghettos by baiting them to war, then raping them.
I dont see how anyone can think that a smaller KD has an advantage in war against a larger KD.
Land gains PER HIT do not win wars. Gains per hit are also capped by your own acres, so even with all the bonuses stack and being Orc, your not likely going to gain double what the bigger guy takes.
Wolf, it was shown after your 1000 vs 1200 acres dpa/opa example that the larger KD would double tap the smaller KD, thus getting better gains.
after this the whole thread has broken down into flaming about semantics and the particulars of what people have *said* and *implied*.
None of this matters. All that matters is, KNRG is there to even the playing field between larger and smaller KDs.
You should only be discussing wether it is needed or not and if so to what extent. Wether the current system is too much is where example are needed and in the example given, it showed that KNRG was NOT detrimental to the larger KD as they still had a massive advantage over the smaller KD.
You need to war more then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishandra
Usually for a 500 acres hit on you by a smaller guy, you can take back 350-380 acres. Do the ratio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishandra
It was shown that they CAN'T doubble tap since the off divided between two generals is smaller than the deff. Same as the big guy COULD send mercs or NS, the other can get soldier aid or cast an aditional spell to mod his deff. So if we are talking about absolute numbers, it's clear: 39.6 is smaller than 40. Attacks fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishandra
Yes, that was the reason of it's implementation. But it does a poor job, giving (too many) advantages to the smaller, wich affect the whole server: stagnation and turtleing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishandra
Pfff... you need to face KRNG some time, so you can feel it on your own. The way you speak, you have zero contact with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishandra
Wolf, lets add 50 acres to the bigger guy. Now he can double tap for 350-380, then another 300. In most cases you wont even need to, as the first hit will kill some def, allowing the 2nd hit to still break. Or if its KDs waving, your 2nd hit can be on the next guy down the list in defence. Your next guy down does the same, out of the whole KD you would lose 1 double tap right at the bottom.
Wolf if you think being small is so great, why do you think 'top' KDs grow? Its so they can overpower those that try to stop them.
KNRG might mean larger KDs need a little more effort to keep growing but it in no way stops them from fighting off smaller KDs when facing them directly.
And if its purely wars you care about, the larger KD, with its larger armies, could simply massacre for the start of the war until the originally smaller KDs NW is artificially inflated, then with their superior military per NW drive the other KD into the ground.
I know what KRNG is and how it works. I do appreciate the illustration however. The problem is the same formula applies to KDs as it does to provinces. On what planet can a single province own an entire KD of equally active an skilled players? Unless (using ONLY KRNG) that province is 3000 acres attacking 1000 acre provinces in a KD 15% larger than it's own KD's NW. But that would imply a greatly oversized province for it's KD, in which case he/she's probably in a ghetto. The idea is that KDs look for targets that are stronger than themselves. If a province looks for a target 15% larger than him/her, in a kd 15% larger than his/her kd, why not have better gains than any possible single retal?
I like this example, good numbers. IMO province A is playing more skillfully than province B. Here's why: #1) He's keeping his NW low, and relative to his KD's NW. #2) He's running GS as part of his strat to reduce the effectiveness of retals. #3) He searches for a province/KD that meets his requirements. Basically he's being careful about who/what he takes and how he defends it.Quote:
Province-A at 100% NW, in KD-A at 100% NW, having 20% Guard Stations,
hitting
Province-B at 115% NW in a KD-B at 120% NW, having no Guard Stations.
You see, Province-A searches for a province/kingdom that has no GS.
Hits once, if he doesn't get retalled, hits again and again, possibly different provinces. If he does get retalled, he has 2 protections allready on him so his gains are bigger anyway.
If he's playing more skillfully, he deserves better gains. Province B needs to alter his strat to account for the possibility of province(s) A, or ignore them.
Exactely. That means he must be more defence oriented instead of focusing on growth. That produces turtleing.Quote:
Originally Posted by nfidel2k