Large Human Kingdoms

It's all about establishing advantages, right? So 6 TPA is overkill if the other kd is running 2 TPA -- you can have near perfect success with 4. If they're running 4 TPA, you'd be better off running 6. It is important to train to your opponent or likely opponents.

That high draft is common in top kd wars; it is less common in war kd or honor kd wars. If you run less draft, you'll find that humans are less efficient. I was responding to noobium's argument that humans should run pure military by pointing out that they are inferior, even at super high drafts -- where they get the most out of their strong elite -- at lower drafts, you'll find that human numbers are even worse compared to pure attackers or other hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

That high draft is common in top kd wars; it is less common in war kd or honor kd wars. If you run less draft, you'll find that humans are less efficient. I was responding to noobium's argument that humans should run pure military by pointing out that they are inferior, even at super high drafts -- where they get the most out of their strong elite -- at lower drafts, you'll find that human numbers are even worse compared to pure attackers or other hybrids.

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High draft is fairly common in most KD I see - the difference is it is also common to get stuck outside of war for an extended period of time which results in a pretty war ready pump getting mangled and turning into a less than ideal pump. Perfect world everyone goes from war end to a nice EOWCF pump and exits war with a full pumped province sitting on their ideal draft with ideal everything. More normal is you spend a few days or longer getting waved, putting waves in and trying to use plunders to keep your head above water while you wait for someone to formally agree to war.

I haven't checked on this forum post in a while and I come back and I am like whoah. I would like to say I understood a bit more about the power of humans after one of our wars. I mean if you think about it matches with a actual description of humans or play to the themes of the races. They aren't super good at anything but their wellroundedness makes them strong. One of my personal experiences was that I was an active attacker who manage to shrug off an insane amount of ops against me because of my tpa and wpa, and I wasn't even close to the numbers everyone else was using. Either way I still feel like its hard to coordinate with ghetto kingdoms where all strategy is chaining and activity general decide victories. My kingdom has an awkward number of humans(half humans half everything else) so it is hard for us to win at wars when our large pure attackers get whittled down while the humans aren't doing too much. Also what is zone control?

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Originally Posted by tetley

Truth is, you're the only person in 3 pages of strat talk who called people assholes, called someone illiterate, and called people amazingly stupid... you're also the only one who insists they are right while refusing to post any numbers.

You're what makes this place toxic, bro.

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If you don't want to be called illiterate and stupid, then don't insult me.

IF you want numbers - think about what happens after 72 hours of prolonged hostile/war, not just what happens during the initial wave or pump phase. Anyone can see that Humans are going to be space inefficient no matter what, unless counting combined off/def. Telling me this is not some great revelation. I made the mistake of assuming that people have moved past static pumped-prov analysis and were willing to be actually serious.

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Originally Posted by liubeeli

I haven't checked on this forum post in a while and I come back and I am like whoah. I would like to say I understood a bit more about the power of humans after one of our wars. I mean if you think about it matches with a actual description of humans or play to the themes of the races. They aren't super good at anything but their wellroundedness makes them strong. One of my personal experiences was that I was an active attacker who manage to shrug off an insane amount of ops against me because of my tpa and wpa, and I wasn't even close to the numbers everyone else was using. Either way I still feel like its hard to coordinate with ghetto kingdoms where all strategy is chaining and activity general decide victories. My kingdom has an awkward number of humans(half humans half everything else) so it is hard for us to win at wars when our large pure attackers get whittled down while the humans aren't doing too much. Also what is zone control?

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Another tactic that can win wars is forcing NW gaps. This is a similar concept to the above -- if you are in a position your provs NW is such that you can topfeed and chain down their bigs, but they don't have the NW spread to chain your provs (because of NW difference, with some provs being too big, and most being too small to get gains), you can be well situated to control the war and gains in the war.

That said, you still need to be careful about controlling the provinces bigger than yours of course, because if you don't they can run away (get UB and unoppable) and win the war by massacring your t/ms and feeding their other provs defense to get out of range of your attackers.

^That was from Zaupers Growth guide. My personal style mimics this as a microstrat when I run a heavy attacker. In the lower tier kingdoms you can't just run kingdom strats because you offer them in kingdom forum/chat. Misunderstood, I was getting flack about my builds because other players assumed I was running a turtle defense in the kingdom HRS, but this was not the case. Anyone who bothered to look at war summaries would note I was taking a lot of quality hits but was always in the top in acres gained. In one war I sustained 23 hits which was the 3rd highest absorbed above the chained trash hit provinces., yet I was in acreage gains top 5. I didn't run TG, Stables or Dungeons. I've elaborated on my style in a different thread. Suffice to say it's activity intensive.

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Originally Posted by noobium

If you don't want to be called illiterate and stupid, then don't insult me.

IF you want numbers - think about what happens after 72 hours of prolonged hostile/war, not just what happens during the initial wave or pump phase. Anyone can see that Humans are going to be space inefficient no matter what, unless counting combined off/def. Telling me this is not some great revelation. I made the mistake of assuming that people have moved past static pumped-prov analysis and were willing to be actually serious.

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You heard it first here folks, humans have the cleric bonus, so they don't lose as much military during the first 72 hours of a prolonged hostile/war. Go ahead though, show us your numbers of how a human looks after 72 hours of conflict, along with your methodology for calculating that and we'll see how they come out.

p.s. when counting combined off/def, humans are space inefficient compared to every other turtle. Nice try, though.

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Originally Posted by noobium

IF you want numbers - think about what happens after 72 hours of prolonged hostile/war, not just what happens during the initial wave or pump phase.

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You mean like after attackers get landfat and become easy NS targets for provs with TDs?

For the record, the post that you initially had a problem with was me saying "uhh" because I found your statement that big humans aren't playing hybrids questionable. I hardly call that an insult - especially in light of the disparagement you've heaped on people since.

And just so we're all clear here: you've been told you're wrong by one of the best players in the game (who had math to support it), you haven't shown us any numbers that indicate you're right, and your suggestion is directly contradicted by strats that many of top 10 kingdoms' humans are running.

But sure, go on thinking that you're right. Maybe next age you can prove everyone wrong - assuming you spend more than 5 minutes in the top 10 this time, that is.

Humans have to somewhat hybrid, if they don't have a tpa/wpa advantage due to science then they aren't all that spectacular imo. If a KD is running attackers on 1tpa then 2tpa and 10% dens is good enough to act as a hybrid.

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Originally Posted by goodz

Humans have to somewhat hybrid, if they don't have a tpa/wpa advantage due to science then they aren't all that spectacular imo. If a KD is running attackers on 1tpa then 2tpa and 10% dens is good enough to act as a hybrid.

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^ this is better.

well put

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Originally Posted by goodz

Humans have to somewhat hybrid, if they don't have a tpa/wpa advantage due to science then they aren't all that spectacular imo. If a KD is running attackers on 1tpa then 2tpa and 10% dens is good enough to act as a hybrid.

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exactly..there are 20~25 provinces per KD. gathering intels..knowing their strength and weaknesses...Gameplan comes in so as Hybrid will be...so many blind spots to be filled in...im a newbie by just reading all the calculations etc.. Activity teamwork and well executed gameplan should over ride it all..

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Originally Posted by noobium

If you don't want to be called illiterate and stupid, then don't insult me

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Nobody should be insulting anyone. Play nicely or you won't be allowed play at all.

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Originally Posted by Zauper

You heard it first here folks, humans have the cleric bonus, so they don't lose as much military during the first 72 hours of a prolonged hostile/war. Go ahead though, show us your numbers of how a human looks after 72 hours of conflict, along with your methodology for calculating that and we'll see how they come out.

p.s. when counting combined off/def, humans are space inefficient compared to every other turtle. Nice try, though.

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I am assuming the thought process was that humans cant retrain elites so after 72 hours they start to irreversibly hemorrhage army? I am confused though because Zauper's post mentioned the cleric bonus but I never saw Noobium insinuate that anywhere.

However there is the ability for humans to stockpile credits and as elites die they can train dspecs and thus send out more elites as dspecs start to fill in for defense where elites previously held ground -- which is why war hero is especially nice for humans =).

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Originally Posted by Cry0

I am assuming the thought process was that humans cant retrain elites so after 72 hours they start to irreversibly hemorrhage army? I am confused though because Zauper's post mentioned the cleric bonus but I never saw Noobium insinuate that anywhere.

However there is the ability for humans to stockpile credits and as elites die they can train dspecs and thus send out more elites as dspecs start to fill in for defense where elites previously held ground -- which is why war hero is especially nice for humans =).

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Noobium's post implied that humans would have better relative military after 72 hours of conflict -- essentially, that other races would lose more military than they would. That's pretty silly though, because (humans don't have innate cleric bonus), while undead/elves have losses bonuses. If his argument is just that humans can turtle and then farm non-turtles after 72h, that's pretty much true of any turtle, but other turtles get superior turtle def, so that doesn't seem to be an argument in favor of humans.

Human elites are also more valuable to them than most other races, which would argue that they are less efficient, not more, after 72h of conflict. MS hurts them more, certainly.

His argument is probably that they can retrain, but in a scenario where you're drafted deep (sub-1ppa), you don't have the peasants, let alone the income, to be drafting. After 72h you're hoping to have gained some peasants and started turning your econ around. That said, there's no reason to think a human can do that better than an elf (who only need to train dspecs, and whose dspecs are more efficient than humans), or a halfer (super cheap military, easily capable of robbing). Credit stocking is an option, but again there's no reason to think a human can do that better than other turtles -- like fae or halflings -- who don't have to use specs, and could burn credits to become more efficient relative to humans.

Even if you aren't drafted deep, none of that is a potential argument to prefer humans to fae, which have superior numbers until you hit high bpa marks as an a/t/m.

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Originally Posted by Cry0

I am assuming the thought process was that humans cant retrain elites so after 72 hours they start to irreversibly hemorrhage army? I am confused though because Zauper's post mentioned the cleric bonus but I never saw Noobium insinuate that anywhere.

However there is the ability for humans to stockpile credits and as elites die they can train dspecs and thus send out more elites as dspecs start to fill in for defense where elites previously held ground -- which is why war hero is especially nice for humans =).

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This is exactly what I was saying. More to the point - jamming high TPA on a province with shaky off/def isn't always a great play, and it's situational especially if those humans are in a growth strat.

edit in response to above: The implication was the exact opposite; I was comparing a human that emphasized elites over a human with fewer elites, because that is the only comparison that makes sense. If I were talking about Halflings or Undeads or whatever, I'd be telling people to pick a different race. Whatever problems a Human has with sustaining their army only get worse with too much TPA, for the same reasons any attacker with too much TPA faces problems.

This whole thread is an exercise in deliberate stupidity from the get go. If all top kingdoms are playing their humans as a/t then I was wrong about that, but they'd be silly to play a/t to the hilt. I've observed the top kingdoms for a good part of the age and would be in a position to know what many are using.