Honestly, I'm really not sure why SWEA was punished. If someone gives you a button you shouldn't have to worry about pushing it.
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Honestly, I'm really not sure why SWEA was punished. If someone gives you a button you shouldn't have to worry about pushing it.
SWEA is in VM right now because it's incredibly unlikely that they weren't part of the plan to have PewPew suicide on AMA's banks and THEN declare. Bishop is most likely looking for evidence to confirm that.
disclaimer: i do not play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Donating acres oow is apparently 100% legit (cf. Ovenmitt v. Octobrev); how can this even be part of the equation? Furthermore, does this mean that if Pew had suicided OUT of war (rather than prior to SWEAs declaration) no foul would have been committed? I am genuinely curious here. Now, lets make things even more interesting: What if Pew had suicided against SWEA in the war. Would that be a fake war too? If so, what is the mandatory level of defense we must keep to avoid getting deleted? And if my opponent drops below this, am I at risk?
Silly questions, indeed; reductio ad absurdum.
disclaimer: I am not support
Correct. No mechanics would have been abused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinSane
No, no mechanics are being abused.Quote:
What if Pew had suicided against SWEA in the war. Would that be a fake war too?
Glad I am in a ghetto warring kd, and not on top.
Way to much drama.
1) Come again? How is suiciding OOW abuse of mechanics? If anything, suiciding OUT of war constitutes a greater abuse, not a lesser oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Palem
2) In other words, you just stated that a) giving acres away in war is OK b) suiciding out of war is okay. Care to explain what Pew and SWEA could have possibly done wrong? I mean, we all know that arranging wars are okay, so it couldn't possibly be that either. So what is it?!
It's already been made ABUNDANTLY clear what they did wrong.
PewPew suicides on AMA's banks out of war then runs to war so AMA can't properly retaliate. That's abusing the war mechanic. It's how fake wars worked since people came up with the idea of fake wars.
And how is this SWEA's fault? Pew gave SWEA the button, they would be foolish not to press it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Because there are no coincidences.
PewPew gives button to SWEA. PewPew suicides on AMA. THEN SWEA declares.
It is obvious to everyone what Pew's intentions were. They would rather see their acres go to SWEA instead of AMA. But the question that remains unanswered: why is SWEA being punished?
I'm not taking sides here, SWEA cost us a war win earlier this age so I have no sympathy for them. This is just purely about this situation, and my feelings are that SWEA did what any kd would do in their position.
That aside, last age my kd was found guilty of fake warring. The punishment was record set from 8/8 to 0/0 and my prov deleted. That punishment cost us the war win crown. So should SWEA's/Pew's punishment be significant enough to cost them the crown? This is where we get a chance to see if moderation is consistent or not.
For helping PewPew abuse war mechanicsQuote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
I literally have no idea where any confusion on these matter are coming from.
the only thing I can think of as to why SWEA got put into VM is they knew pre-war that PewPew would farm out to them thus entering a war under scrupulous circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
Swea isn't being punished, did i not say that already?
i can count to potato !Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
If they aren't being punished you should take them out of vacation mode...
Then they benefit, i did say this already btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
How do they benefit from being stuck in a war with a kd they can't hit?
You're actively punishing them by not letting them continue to play and secure a crown
sitting on acres with war protection for 5 days is a benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
fair enough, but they're still getting punished by not being able to play
potato?
Then the mechanisms should be updated - for example, the war protection against outside hits only stands for hits from kds which wasn't targeted in last 24 hours by the kd in that fake/regular war. This rule could utilize the relationship meter - if kd in a war made more hits (relationship points) than the kd which was 'hit and run' then no protection, otherwise protection stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
And to make sure that theres a hits in a "fake war" - protection against from outside hits is on only if both warring kds have atleast hostile relationships to each other. And if theres no hostile to each other then the kd page could show fake war instead of war.
My blood boils that theres interference of devs in middle of the action because ppl find out a way to use game mechanism in their advantage.
Its like changing rules of icehockey (eg golie cant be changed for a 6th player) or any other game rule in middle of game. Most likely there wasnt rule about golie - there was only rule about changing a player for a player, and then someone thought about changing extra player for golie. The rules (mechanism) allowed it.
Dont get me wrong, - i like clean fights, honourable play, i want that everyone can have fun - i like to win wars, but i dont like to destroy enemies so they wouldnt ever want war again. But this time i think its devs responsibility to make changes in mechanism if they dont want to see fake wars. (i personally think - that fake wars are not the end of world - it gives an unexpected edge to utopia).
meh cant add an image for palem :(
Can they pump there provinces than?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Or else i dont see any benefit from it at all...Since they arent being punished.
now i get a headache
Apparently, I need to make abundantly clear that I was referring to SWEA, not Pew. That said, I disagree with you that hitting KD A and then declaring KD B is an abuse of the war mechanic, particularly so while effects are phased in - I also disagree with the statement that "its how fake wars worked since people came up with the idea of fake wars, but lets ignore both of those points for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
How is SWEA responsible for actions of Pew? Pew acts freely; reasonably, they alone should therefore be held accountable for their actions. SWEA is warring a kingdom. If they were not hitting, they would get deleted for fake warring. What options do they have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Where have the devs interfered?Quote:
Originally Posted by martinzig
My point apparently wasn't clear enough so I'll explain it as if it's a narrative...Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinSane
PewPew: "We wanna screw over AMA and feed you all of our acres."
SWEA: "Great! Let's work out a CF with Simians so we can end those hostilities."
*works out CF*
PewPew: "Alright great. Now, we're going to give you the button and after that we're going to suicide on AMA's banks and +4 hours for the extra gains. After that you declare and you can farm out our banks."
SWEA: "Sounds like a plan."
*PewPew gives SWEA the button*
SWEA: "We better hold off pressing the button and wait for PewPew to suicide into AMA's banks like they said they were going to."
*PewPew suicides into AMA's banks*
SWEA: "Great! Now we can press the button and farm out PewPew!"
*SWEA presses button and begins farming out PewPew*
Has this thoroughly explained how SWEA is responsible for for helping PewPew abuse mechanics?
That's a good way to imply SWEA is involved. But it's just a fictional story unless you have evidence. Well I guess mods don't need evidence to set punishments. But so far it looks like SWEA hasn't received any punishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
+1 Palem
No. Given my understanding of the degenerate state of the game, I see no fault even in the hypothetical scenario above. Rule wise, that is. All I see is a kingdom accepting free land, something which seems perfectly fine these days. If your entire argument boils down to "if SWEA didn't declare, Pew couldn't abuse war", I think you are on thin ice. Reasonably, it is every kingdoms right to press buttons when they are given - it is not SWEA's fault Pew opted to retal AMA for interfering in the war rather than focus their hits on SWEA (or not hit at all, which by Bishops word earlier this age is perfectly fine).Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
So, you are allowed to farm out to friends, allowed to arrange wars, allowed to give buttons to friends, allowed to war one-sided wars - and yet this is illegal in ways that two parties are to blame? Again, no; while I find the acts silly, I do not see how SWEA are at fault.
- everything they did appear well in line with what is currently allowed.
Considering SWEA's suspension was lifted and they're being allowed to remain in war, I think it really doesn't matter. The new question is, will SWEA get hit/GB'd into their war to prevent them from crowning?
Let's look at the evidence:Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit
-SWEA and PewPew arranged their war. This is very well accounted for. When you arrange a war, you arrange the start of the conflict as well, at least pertaining to WHEN people will begin to hit and generally when the button will be given. PewPew made it very clear and they wanted to farm out to SWEA and there's literally no reason to keep SWEA in the dark about such things, so they would want to get into war ASAP.
-The start of the conflict was Feb 5th. Both PewPew and SWEA were online. PewPew OPENS with giving SWEA the button and then proceeds to hit AMA 10 times for over 15k acres. PewPew claims they hit the button as soon as they saw it, yet somehow PewPew managed to throw in an additional 10 hits despite SWEA being online and LOOKING for a button. Yet somehow, by the greatest of coincidences, SWEA only manages to find the button AFTER PewPew has done all of their hits into AMA's banks and fully suicided.
Either SWEA doesn't know where to find the button, or they're lying and were waiting for PewPew to finish their suicides into AMA.
@Justin - Does the word "Accessory" mean anything to you? If you're the getaway car for a bank robbery, you're guilty of a crime. Same applies to Utopia.
Palem you are pretty convinced that SWEA knew about the fake war with Pew. Will this be reflected ingame by a punishment of some sorts? Or is this just your opinion?
Is that your opinion or fact? Because even in your hypothetical scenario I see nothing wrong. Not because I approve of the actions myself, but because the alternative is simply absurd; had this been Rage farming out X, I would've argued the exact same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I'm not support. I can't punish kds any more than you can.
However, my opinion (and it certainly is my opinion) is strongly supported by circumstantial evidence.
Why would:
1. PewPew risk having SWEA declare BEFORE they did their suicides into AMA by giving them the button and THEN suiciding?
2. SWEA not hit the button immediately if they didn't know about the plan to suicide?
And I respect your opinion. I'm just wondering if it will change anything relevant ingame? SWEA is out of war and protection now, and it seems like the moderators have decided they don't deserve punishment. And his word is law around utopia, what are we debating?
We're debating whether the community should take action.
@ Justin - after looking over the game rules I don't see anywhere that it says you cannot assist another player in breaking the rules (which is strange) unless it's implied in either the Spirit of the Game or Fair and Honorable play part of the rules.
Either way, this is a community issue. There's no way anyone offered up logs of SWEA and PewPew agreeing to wait to declare until after the suicides so finding any real solid evidence was likely next to impossible. But we all know what happened. The only question is if the community wants/should do something about it...
SWEA are still in war, btw, and still have war protection.
Also, there is more than one ongoing debate here:
1) Was Pew's actions against the rules
2) Was SWEA's actions against the rules (why were they in VM)
3) What will the punishment(s) be
4) Does Bishop act on bias (he was accused of the same thing during debauchery's FW last age)
5) Will the community respond to this type of action or will they permit/accept it
6) Who is the lamest kd of the age
7) Who can use the biggest words or paint the purdiest story
8) Will lying and bending the truth prevail
The list goes on... really.
Capital punishment!
To the stocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I honestly still don't see the issue: Assuming that SWEA knew about - which does not necessarily mean were complicit in - Pew's plans to suicide on AMA, the rational choice would be to do exactly that. Why should SWEA re-act to Pew's actions and intents in for SWEA non-optimal ways?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
+1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I also suspect this is what happened. SWEA has the most to gain for the farm out. Easy to tell excuses and other BS to the community that "SWEA is innocent. SWEA just pushed the button."