I've already explained what I think a crown is and why. Thanks for explaining my own made up reasons to me though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
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I've already explained what I think a crown is and why. Thanks for explaining my own made up reasons to me though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
BoH, you can't prove this and might have just made it up. Do you make up half the things you say or all of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Band of Horses
No offense to the honorable flogger, but to my mind it was Remote effect that helped BB crown. Knowing flogger is lurking in the depths would prevent a nonchalant approach to exploring if you weren't on BBs side. That and BB is an excellent kingdom with solid focus age to age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
I actually have the original Syntico's crown list, aka "The Crown Winners List". An excerpt from the thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Band of Horses
The rules:
And the #3, Elit (behind Phiwha/Mango and MacLean):Quote:
- "Crowns" are normal Crowns. Kingdom Networth & Land (0.5+0.5=1), Kingdom Honor (1), Province Networth & Land (0.5+0.5=1), Province Honor (1) all count as one each. A Triple Crown i.e. Networth, Land & Honor (0.5+0.5+1+1=3) would amount to three Crowns (one extra for the feat).
- "Absalometric Crowns" are what we refer to as split Crowns or shared Crowns. It is a practice more commonly found among weaker and especially Absalom Kingdoms. Under the Absalometric system, Networth, Land and Honor are separated into one Crown each (i.e. 1+1+1 instead of 0.5+0.5+1). Absalometric Crowns is a variation of the term "Crowns" offered by AquaSeaFoam in his proposition that he had more Crowns than Phiwha's 10 (in 2010). It was later ascertained that AquaSeaFoam had distinguished Networth and Land Crowns in his calculation (he also included Race and Island Crowns in his total, which I have disregarded in my interpretation). There is currently no concept of a Triple Crown under the system because Absalom could never imagine it possible.
- "Best Result" is available as an indication to us that it is not due to a lack of trying that these players remain Crown Virgins, but rather a combination of inadequate utilization of skill, bad luck and poor choices that led to their current predicament.
As you can see Syntico was in favour of pure crowns, rather than 1/2 crowns or absalometric crowns. So you are, in fact, wrong, BoH ;)Quote:
3. Elit of We are the darkness – 10 Crowns, 16 Absalometric Crowns
Age 19: Won 1st Crown (Province Honor) with Via Nocturna as "Night Hunter BG" on World of Legends
Age 21: Won 2nd Crown (Province Honor) with Via Nocturna as "Days of Revenge" on World of Legends
Age 22: Won 3rd Crown (Province Honor) with Via Nocturna as "Night WAR" on World of Legends
Age 31: Won 3rd & ? Crown (Province Land ONLY) with Via Nocturna as "Mars Solar System" on World of Legends
Age 37: Won 4th & ? Crown (Kingdom Honor) with Seasons as "Cast and destroy" on World of Legends
Age 38: Won 5th Crown (Province Land ONLY) with Seasons as "Alien vs Orc" on World of Legends
Age 39: Won 6th Crown (Kingdom Networth & Land) with Seasons as "Jet Li" on World of Legends
Age 41 Won 7th Crown (Kingdom Networth & Land) with Seasons as "James Bond" on World of Legends
Age 41 Won 8th Crown (Province Networth & Land) with Seasons as "James Bond" on World of Legends
Age 50: Won 9th Crown (Kingdom Networth & Land) with Dreams as "The Bank Always Wins" on World of Legends
Age 50: Won 10th Crown (Province Networth & Land) with Dreams as "The Bank Always Wins" on World of Legends
Some opinions:
1) #1 NW is a crown, but it's not "winning the age". The triple crown is winning the land, nw, and honor charts and represents winning all three crowns. Winning any one of these charts is a crown, but land is the most important chart.
2) The game mechanics are currently flawed resulting in "bullying" being overpowered. In the past with what was probably the longest running relations system, when the meters maxed, no one got the button. This allowed a defending kingdom to avoid war but still fight back to a greater extent although the aggressor kingdom could still do last minute waves before the day change to get some "free hits" in. The meter was 200 points during this time and there was no war win bonus. Now, when the meters are maxed both kingdoms get the button. On top of this, the meters have been reduced to 150 points. On top of this, the winning kingdom gets a war win bonus that is very significant in the top competition. This combination essentially means that a weaker kingdom cannot avoid war without being farmed and that the aggressor kingdom will either completely farm the weaker kingdom out of war or get war and farm them in war plus get a huge war win bonus. The flawed mechanics strongly promotes bullying.
The only disadvantage to bullying is that farming a kingdom in hostile/war still takes time and can limit pool use potentially resulting in pool decay. That's why it's even better to just skip the fighting part by pointing out the inevitable outcome due to the flawed mechanics and just asking for a bunch of free land up front. If a kingdom fights back effectively, they'll still be beat down to nothing in the fight, but they can potentially slow the aggressors gains enough that they might lack somewhat relative to their competition who is busy pumping and exploring. If the weaker kingdom is strong and good enough to do this, then the demand for free acres under threat of taking them by force becomes a bit of a bluff. The aggressor would prefer to just get them free and it might not even be worth it for them to take them by force, but if their bluff is called, they need to back it up so as to set an example. They need to prove that when they bully a kingdom, that kingdom better give them the free land or they will indeed destroy the other kingdom through force.
This is exactly what AMA is doing. The whole thing about a max gain wave has nothing to do with it being dishonorable. Everyone knows it isn't. The reality is that AMA didn't gain as much as they hoped the first war and saw that Jerks still had enough acres left after the war for AMA to judge it worth their effort and bad karma to demand more free acres or take them by force. It looks like Cello thought that if he tried to place the blame for this decision back on Jerks themselves for "max gaining" that it might be easier for Jerks to accept as their own fault and therefore give up the land freely. Regardless, this decision was about game mechanics along with consideration for possible political ramifications and their current situation with regards to other game relations.
Personally, I think that bullying weaker kingdoms for their acres and war win bonuses with very little real way for those kingdoms to defend themselves is not good for the game and the mechanics should be fixed. On the positive side, it seems that most other top kingdoms have not been abusing this mechanics flaw to bully too badly so far, but maybe I just haven't noticed since I only recently returned to the game. With any fix, care should be taken so as to not overpower smaller aggressors to the point where it is the larger kingdom with no way to defend themselves.
the game mechanics where you could endlessly retal war someone without going to war were far worse or when you could run from fight using fake warQuote:
Originally Posted by goodz
In response to Cello's post above, for what it's worth, on my "rules" I never counted race or island charts, that was just Syntico adding some satiric effect. I counted kingdom land, nw, and honor as kingdom crowns and province nw, land, and honor as province crowns. I think it's pretty basic logic and knowledge that a triple crown is winning the land, nw, and honor charts and is 1+1+1, not 0.5+0.5+1 + bonus 1.
I really don't understand the .5 thing, there are plenty of situations where you can't "easily" win land/NW crown as palem claims (korp actually put it very eloquently but the tl;dr version is palem doesn't really know what he is talking about but talks like he does). If you have an EOA fight for #1 with the #1 and #2 kds and the #3 kd is pumping for the last 3 weeks, there is not enough time for the winner of the two kds fighting to win kd land considering gc stocks would be spent on war while the kd pumping for 3 weeks has many options to deep draft, etc.
I reread the Realest thread and thus my attack on myself. I am fair in my attacks thus attacking myself for being wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cello
Where those two differed in that thread and what threw me off was the honor crowns. Realest was saying they were 1/2 but Syntico said full. (I thought Syntico had corrected Realest in saying he gave into the full land OR nw, boy was I foolish)
This thread delivered...
anyways regarding the back-and-forth and somewhat what Proteus was asking, I don't think anyone is entitled to a CF after war. But a spoon of honey attracts more flies than a jug of vinegar. Why do you think it is that BB is generally well-liked (other than by Havoc) and AMA isn't?
Because flogger and protector treat people relatively nicely...
There's no objectively wrong or right way to play, and maybe AMA doesn't care about crowns anymore so they just wanna have some fun and pummel us a bit. That's fine, like I said I don't hold it against them personally. But there's no question that prot was nicer to me than elit/cello were this age, and last age, and there's equally no question of who I'd be more inclined to do a favor for in the future.
And I think this is what Palem keeps trying to say, and it's something in the core fundamental mentality of AMA that they just differ in opinion regarding: you're more likely to win, for a whole number of reasons, if you try to minimize the number of enemies you make. And AMA either doesn't care or doesn't understand.
Also to respond to an earlier thread: Kuhan don't worry even if BB forces b2b with us next age I'll still be bros with you :D
I think it all depends on what kd you are. I'm willing to bet Pyro is fond of AMA, AMA has been kind to my ghettos in the past, they extend cf's to try to help out their victims as well. So AMA has bad blood with Pew2 and Jerks and some ghettos. BB has bad blood with CR. Pretty even if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetley
AMA has done a fine job of disbanding their 'haters' and while the kingdoms are gone the players will still hold resentment but this is not the reason for them not crowning. In fact I'd argue their niceness in extending CFs and usually giving CFs after wars is what costs them crowns.
Winning the age is the only achievement (crown) that's even remotely worth using your breath on anymore. imo, winning the age is land+nw. That means you've outplayed the rest of the competition sufficiently enough to secure the two spots. Not an impossible task, at all, and if there' just a big cluster**** at the top where NW and Land is split, then no one outplayed the rest of the competition. Good on them for finishing #1, but you didn't win.Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam
The fact that you guys are using a system which is defined in terms of trolling abs and regarding it as the holy bible of utopian achievements is god damn funny.
I never said winning the land+crown is easy. I said it's the only achievement worth respecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Nice to see someone gets it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetley
AMA is very nice ...until you do something Elit disagrees with. Then they'll find every excuse they can to badger you and make you hate them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Band of Horses
Play with them (their way) or play against them. Their philosophy reminds me of USA, help those that want to play in your sandbox but as soon as someone kicks dirt into your eyes or steals your toy you turn them into glass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I don't think it is wrong, and many in the past have made amends with AMA just don't expect it in the next age unless you are over the top in reconciling.
I have never agreed with the "crown or bust" type of mentality for this game and crowns have never been a big deal to me. It's almost always my goal at the start of the age to be the strongest kingdom on the server, not necessarily to "crown". Perhaps this is one of the few areas I agree with Elit.
Maybe some see this as a loser mentality and admittedly I've probably lost more last minute crowns than anyone for all sorts of various reasons including not being aggressive enough. Still, even with all the lost crowns, I think I must be about equal with Elit in count.
Most people at the leadership level care more about winning wars or being more powerful than others than who wins in any given age. I care about a crown after its been awhile since I've had one, or if I'm playing with new players, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam
Not sure why this topic is turned to crown contest talk. Its was started from tetley to complain and have pure education propose now. Rest KDs can learn and not make same mistake tetley did. So many good kds in past made deals for give land and get cf. Its best and fastest way for end it and move on. Only not enough experienced kds/leaders prefer to fight to dead and its end hurt them much more. Still every one have his right to play how like. Its include AMA too Palem! So less flame. Both Kds do what they think for good.
Elit,
Honestly, if the situations were reversed on you and a kingdom was bigger and better positioned than you, perhaps after beating you in a war or perhaps without a war, demanded a significant amount of free acres from you for a cf, how would you respond?
You're not exactly known for giving out free acres even when disadvantaged.
Im know waring from disadvantage and win all my wars past few ages. We loss this age for first time vs Pew Pew and its was expected when we declared. After Petrified offered me CF and move on we still declared them war= auto give 5k land+post war bonuses. Its why We got in return easy long cf. This worked for pew much better from simple cf and move on. = we did what is good for us and good for pew. No grudge no nonsenses!Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam
In season i gave free wave sleepy when i was in bad relations with coss during this time. I have no problem give land for cf if its better.
Dont forget its was normal abs practice in age 20-30 for b2b kds they wared if kd max gains and WD. Quote from ex abs leader:" i cant understand people doing max gains and WD when they cant defend his land from us after war end. Sure we will come back for it."
Elit,
I think you kinda dodged the question. To find a time you gave free land, you had to go years back with a different kingdom in a completely different type of situation. I think that if you were in such a situation as this, you would do everything you could to make it as painful as possible for the kingdom bullying you, not happily give them free land and be on your way.
When you give out free land too easily, then everyone wants some. It's like paying ransoms to terrorists who kidnap people. Doing so only encourages them to continue kidnapping more of your people. Don't get me wrong, I understand why a shark wants his food to think it's the right choice to happily get eaten, but you and I would both try and make the shark choke while eating us.
As for your max gains story, that also was a different situation. The war win bonus was implemented primarily to combat situations where a kingdom max gained all war for minimum time to wd up acres overall. There was an age winner (not to name names) that I believe went 0/4 in wars but won the age by having Avians and withdrawing minimum time up land. From what I saw with jerks, their last wave was actually pretty poor and they didn't gain any more than their previous waves and you out gained them every wave including the last.
all things considered what AMA does is fine... they are not abuse at all... maybe you change in your old age but i can recall like 8 years ago you had many abs provs GB wartague for no other reason but he happen to be the largest prov on the server...at that time HaLL was no threat to abs..especially since you continue to recruit from out kds... how you can try to tell Elit he is wrong after the game is nearly dead and things you ordered just fine..
Crunch, no idea what you're even talking about but you must have been told lies. We never gb'd anyone simply because they were the biggest province on the server. If anyone was gb'd, there were other reasons.
Also, I never said that Elit was wrong here. I simply explained the game theory and mechanics behind it and suggested taht the game mechanics should be improved.
it was your order i was the unfortunate to have to try to waste time to try to diplo with you at the time ... defiantly failure on my part as i have no patience for drawn out double talk.. sure others have similar happenings ... for anyone to say anything about what ama does today is a pure hypocrite..
I still have no idea what you're talking about or even what age you're referring to, but if you were involved in the diplomacy, then you would know very well that there were reasons for it. Explaining game mechanics and game theory in no way makes anyone a hypocrite.
Also, not to criticize HaLL since their leaders are friends of mine, but they were founded as an aggressive alliance that actively set out to work as a team unit. In those days, an attack on one HaLL province was an attack on all HaLL provinces and they would retaliated it with all kingdoms necessary. Likewise in hostile or war, multiple HaLL kingdoms would team up to op the target down to soften them up for the main warring kingdom. So if you want to talk about hypocrites, perhaps you should talk about yourself.
The game was much different back then and there was nothing inherently wrong with that style of play and this isn't a criticism of HaLL. It is only to refresh your memory why Absalom might have wanted to gb a HaLL province 8 years ago. However, I really don't remember what you're talking about myself, so I'm guessing that either it wasn't actually a coordinated gang bang and it was a case of several kingdoms trying to get easy land with grabs on a lone big target, or if it was a gang bang, then there certainly was a reason.
But back to main topic, I find the tone of Tetley's post quite hypocritical when people like Pendel are in leadership of a kingdom. No sympathy for Jerks, sorry. You've taken what you want from kingdoms last couple ages and Pendel refuses to communicate with other kd when it suits him.
AquaSeaFoam dont spam us with wall text. If you have something to say be shorter.
Make sure you don't use any "moral" arguments too because you are last person have right to talk about moral consider all ****s your alliance done to game.
I explained why we got mad on jerks and why we are b2b after they refuse deal = (5k acres: 2500 from big 2500 from core, not hits cow,when they got 2500 from his max gains wave on our big provs.) They choice to fight and we fight.
lol asf talking about game etics, you might not remember that epesiode and ofc abs never did wrong, but one thing you must remember is your GB on Cato the Elder in the old days when he was leading carpe diem ?
one of the 1000 of reason people hated abs and my self included.
wow a guy/kingdom with more skill then us, we abs cave people must gb him or we loose.
Ofc i dident help he hit your wife/kingdom and you had to get abs alliance to defend her honor.
lol, game etics from a leader of the most ruthless and dishonorble alliance ever to set foot in utopia.
would take any RO cheating players over your bad etics, gangbang coverdly messuers anyday.
ye lets suggercode one of the main reason back then the game was failling and people giving up, if abs couldent take you 1vs1 or use there stall diplomatic (ooh we are away) or soften you up taking turns, they could always just fabricade a lie and gb you.
That was the real abs for you, the covards hiding in numbers and forum lies.
(not to forget they ofc had there xlog system way before munk came along) and there uber trading.
We are talking even before age 10.
Useless scums is what abs leaders always was.
lok at Mike talking about game ethics :)
ofc im the defender of all what is right and ethic ;)
Tetley: did flogger make you a banner?
odd ...
This is precisely the state of the game. Most people think BB are the "good" guys and AMA are the mean bullies. This factors to AMA not crowning as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetley
Not very true. BB have his haters too and they have some ages "off" so less time for piss ppl. Problem is other. Most leaders past few ages are really bad at lead in top level and after fail terible they prefer to chart shape from regrup and prep for next age. More or less last age was first age from long where 1 KD have won normal his Crown and we still had CR "creative play" for get over province crown and make sure Protector dont win. Its was insane lame play from CR and insane stupid from BB not say/do any and accept it.Quote:
Originally Posted by clawz
could not say it better myself... abs and asf among among others complete hypocrite... still sticking to the same lie how they were so clean....
Abs played 100x cleaner than the conduct we have seen the last few ages after Bs had disbanded, CR/Fake Rage alone made more **** play than several kingdoms combinedQuote:
Originally Posted by Crunch
Funny how a "new" player can tell us how clean abs is, Proteus you said your self i belive you dident play from was it age 30 -40 and down ?, how can you comment on ABS when you werent around half of the games life span ?
Who are you to give any input in what kinda beast ABS was when they where strangling the game ?
To presume you know **** from here say is just not only arrogant but also below your intelligence.
well proteus it is so long ago i can't remember everything.. however i disagree with that.. abs had lot of power and always used it to pushed not just alliance but individuals in ghettos anyone they thought was good enough to compete with them.. one main difference is Fake rage sucked tricky drixx was a bad monarch and not a great player although he looked like a super star compared to ab.. i guess it's all relative. Fake rage never had any real power their only power they ever had was the cf agreements with the top.. with out a cf agreement in the top i could have a ghetto take them down.. CR was ok only really became completely dishonest under maxi rule .. zauper had been fairly stand up guy ..