you also get second bonus, plague immunityQuote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
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you also get second bonus, plague immunityQuote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
it's gona be funQuote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
No, it's already hard enough as it is to kill off elites in any significant manner. Effectively making both overpopulation impossible as well as preventing ambushes outright was a stupid idea last time it was around and it still is. Bring back proper razes in war and it'd be better, then you could just kill they province dead instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
Fear the avian clerics with GS.
Yeah, but undead is a joke nowadays...Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
Afraid of few little Angry Birds hitting you, are we? Overpop is very possible, same as keeping avian down don't need to PK him. Beside there are other ways to disable prov, like opping and avian in not hard to op.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
Opping still have no really efficient way to kill elites that are out, and elites out don't defect, and assuming you don't get chained home everything else will defect before your elites are back or you can release it and send to a friendly, so ops can largely be ignored, at least on a province scale level and no, with no bushing it's very hard to actually overpop a prov enough that it won't still have a ton of elites because they'll have significant incoming acres for their size incoming so it won't be enough to force them to release much and it won't be enough to keep them home for a few hc's so you can chain them further with elites home and no incoming acres.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
It can be a beast with somebody active enough to never ever have armies home, but it's crap if you sit home occasionally because you'll get chained ultra hard(for good reason). In short Avian lends itself only to a certain player/playstyle that I don't think we should encourage more than neccessary, game needs to move into a more casual direction, not one that premiers insane activity at arbitrary times.
Give me back proper razes in war and I have a proper counter, but as it is the game already offers too few ways to kill off huge piles of elites, it shouldn't be made any harder.
Avian is and was always for active plp. So it's a good change. It was never for plp who sit at home and attack once every 16 hours. There are turtle races for that.
Razes are fine as they are in war. I see no reason to change
Plus if you keep that avian overpop all the time he has army out, sooner or later it will be easy to PK him with masses.
Obviously, but I don't think we should boil em down to be even more of a one trick pony, it'd be better to give them a more universal boost, not something that makes them even more unforgiving activity wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
No ambush immunity anywhere is fine as they are, I see no reason to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
PK is essentially impossible with a proper kingdom at your back, which just reiterates my points from my last post. If they get ambush immunity they should have a +50-100% offensive losses penalty(combined with the shorter attacktimes that really racks up over time), they used to have that when they had ambush immunity last time, they'd need it again. But then they'd need another boost. Ambush immunity is just too hard to balance properly, it should stay dead and buried.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
Maybe avian should have gains nerf and human should get its science cost nerf and something else.
Maybe avian should have gains nerf and human should keep its science cost nerf .
pretty good idea andurilas.
and the idea to put 100% military losses on a race that's dependant on rapid attacking, they self burn them out Before standard min time in a war. killer
I Think ambush immunity sounds fun and great to compensate for only having mid range max mopa compared to orcs, undeads, humans, dwarves. last age i was dwarf hybrid and due to BE still pushed 105-115max mopawith 40+ mdpa all out.
this age I'm human, atm 113max mopa in war, with 45 mdpa all out, 3tpa raw and 2wpa raw. there's orcs and UD's in the kd on 120-130max mopa, 40+ mdpa all out. our avian has maby 90 max mopa and 40+ max mdpa all out.
weaker leets, no ome bonus no horses.
it's good, all races requires different playstyles and has their purpose. more fun if there's a healther mix of races in a kd an not just a orc ud core with maby dwarf/human/elf support and faery/halfler t/m base.
full avain kd won't work, can't thouch the UB casters. will burn themselves our in min time if kept under Control with ops and unable to retrain.
but a few in a kd for that mid size fast chain to phase out enemies, will be good. orcs bonus gains and extra cashualties will be great to start chains, and give them finishing blows.
Right. I had a list.. Bit too late but I'll post it anyway. Mostly due to the lack of changes to game mechanics.
- Only one WW bonus, both acres and land. Losing kd gets other bonuses (creds and stuff) but no honor or land bonus.
- Finetune land WW bonus. More land for smallest provs, less for the biggest.
- Slightly wider optimal op range.
- Cheaper than 5x exploring first 12-24hrs of EOWCF (low resources). Exploring credits at warwin/warloss?
- Hostile points / Honor loss for opping into EOWCF
- Anything that makes land more valuable. Landdropping ruins land/nw charts, while warring/honor kds drop to stay in buisness. Capping WW score/honor to total land, in some way?
PK is possible and i doesn't really matter on kd, but on yourself being active at ticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
Human gets big OME boost so it should get big nerf. And sci cost nerf is just a nuisance in most cases not a big con.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
OME vs gains is nice idea. Yo have huge offense but get less gains.
Good idea would be to donate land after war from bigger provs to smaller. So there is less need for fort war EOWCF. And downsizing of overgrown attackersQuote:
Originally Posted by Taraxacum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuppe
Exactly no kd will run full Avian core, so ambush immunity is not a terrible thing. Just different obstacle to over come.
Cleric is most chosen attacker personality this age by almost double the next one. That means it gets a nerf. Changes 101.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
humans already have the ome boost.
difference this age OME for humans is in war only. and warriors has ome boost all the time.
next age they change is, humans have ome boost all the time, warriors gets ome boost in war.
kinda makes seince doesn't it. in war, the warrior is in it's true element and gets boosted.
both human and warrior OME despite of when it's active gets boosted by 5%.
not that big of a deal. change would enable me as human attacker to hit bigger oow and in hostile, just like orc and undead. I wouldn't have to wait for war like now. all of the top mopa races, orc, undead, human, dwarf can pick warrior and get the +ome in a war.
the only thing I Think makes good sense atm, to prevent avians to get rapid land fat and maby too good at chaining mid size targets is to give them the gain penalty and let humans keep the +30% science costs penalty they currently have. or maby up it to 40% if people find +30% book costs to be to weak of a penalty.
the ome doesn't make the human offense massively huge, makes it equal to the one of orcs and undeads. undead and orc elites 7 in off, humans 6, with racial ome at 20% that's 7,2. i's differs in 0.2 / elite only. with my 31k elites compared to orc elites at my 600k nw it would mean 217000 for the orc, 223200 for the human. omfg kill me now, 5200 more Points, so fkn Über, game is broken...
and all 4 of them can pick warrior for added 15% ome in war. so stop comparing human warrior mopa with like orc cleric mopa.
I say all 4 since I Count dwarves in as top mopa attackers, since with the +BE they can draft more and have a higher number of elites, end result is still the same. so when i got 31k elites as human/orc/ud I'd maby have 36-37k as dwarf and still keep same BE.
You forgrt two things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuppe
1) Human elite can defend and is much harder to ambush than ork leet.
2) Human gets free sci and ork gets negative sci in end making much diff there. In Pop, ME and Tm stuff.
So human is much stronger than ork, everywhere except raw OME. So -20% gains is good nerf
why is the thievery Always so much more enhanced then magic.
elves +30% spell success. -------------> 50%, all bad?
hafler +50% thievery operation success.
rogue +75% Thievery Science Effectiveness, starts with +400 thieves.
mystic +50% Magic Science Effectiveness, starts with 200 wizzards. ----------------> 75% and 400, all bad?
would it be unfair mage vs rogue if they had equal bonuses to their traits and personalities to their bonuses and starting numbers.
I'd almost Think it would be more fair to have mystic start with +400 and rogues +200 since it's alot easier to train a decent tpa then accumulate decent wpa for that oop war.
Because there is no hard defense against mage ops, e.g. WT's. Same as wizzard can easily get rid of RM, while rogue might be having problems vortexing CS.
I dont forget,
well then for the ability to be harder to ambush for the human, orcs do have +30% gains, and +25% cashulties to enemies to compensate, kanda fair trade off isn't it.
that free 0.3 sci per acre isn't all that whoopti doo much when you make 30-40% less in the sci accumulation due it book costs. this age.
question is, are +30% book cost penalty equal to -20% science effectiveness. it's no that you get less sci as an orc, the Points is less effective so instead of 10% pop at 250bpa you have 8% pop.
maby it should be +40% book costs to compensate or maby even 50%.
needing like 20-30% military barracks and personality and use max added attacktime to balance the penalty is crazy. and that's when you want to get to normal attacktimes, then other attackers with military barracks will have 2-3 hour shorter attacktimes, still not a good penalty on a attacker that -20% gains.
won't be a good acre mover, chainer. just good for idle **** exploration kd:s with 1-2 wars per age- screaming juppie we suck but we made top 10. humans won't have a Place in a kd that I am in that averages 7-9 wars per age.
pretty sure a rogue also keeps wpa for def, Guilds, magic shield, AW. I've not tried full rogue since I started plaing again, so I don't know how easy it is or isn't to counter a mage. hence the question.
if ppl use RM and you MV it it's a good chance you rid all your own self spells. and mv is a pretty hard op to cast. not sure that is so easy to cast as mage on a t/m rogue. and wt's isn't all Worth the acrespace if you are an attacker with 1-2 tpa raw. a rogue still trolls you pretty easy
It's pretty much orthodox by now that magic is stronger than thievery in the average damage per salvo. That, along with the fact that magic has significant internal uses and thievery has none, is why magic is limited by runes and not just mana.
Except every human in my KD has almost 2-3 times the amount of BPA compared to anyone else... yah hardly anything at all. Consider humans were the most common and pain in the ass race this age they NEED a nerf. The big difference between human vs orc/ud is humans can match OPA and have the op defense of a hybrid or actually become hybrids... orc/UD cannot do this.
I also want to note that if you do war often the free books become an advantage because every other attacker isn't gaining books. If you end up losing at least the humans will end up with 40-60K of science.
Orc gains are canceled out by anon, as orks are super easy to ambush. So in end it's just kills bonus, vs several of human bonuses. Slayerviper said, humans do have much moe books and ork sci nerf makes them even father below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuppe
How is that not a nerf? -40% to both offensive and defensive military losses vs -50% to ONLY defensive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Verminator
Or if you were asking nameisis, he was saying -%40 to both is too much.
I like the avian -30% attack time. Would increase tactician to 20% to have alternative fast attackers. Possibly boost quickfeet.
The halfling heavy attacker is different. Could be fun.
Avian nwa will be perfect for whoring kds.
No use of anon due to ambush immunity means a passive increase to avian land gains and honor gains, so avian will be bringing more honor and land to whoring kds as top kds tend to keep low dpa/high opa already.
Avian merchant for top kds.
bottomfeed while keeping low dpa/high opa/high pez
tog and tog
buy science if needed
if no war it will work very well.
Ambush immunity on a race that can modify their hits so that they get home before the enemy is an irrelevant bonus, unless you have no idea what your doing of course. A little different for oow though but still doable. Avians a strong race in the right hands. But its bonuses are also big weaknesses. Also undead is a good race too in the right hands. Its only a joke for the bloke who has no idea what he's doing.
If your chain correctly and hit correctly post chain theres rarely a reason needed to annon during war. During war you only annon if u think u're about o get chained or during hostile when its random max gains to hit armies in.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
avian is trash tier for growth kd's. no idea why anyone would think otherwise. oow if your hitting things that ambush you're hitting bad targets. in war if your ambushable then you aren't chaining well. That leaves hostile, where you are incapable of turtling. Avian shouldn't even be looked at unless you think cleric is by far the OP personality of the age, but since tactical wd's are gone even that will normally make something with more econ/raw military + cleric better.
That being said, if you are growing next age, please feel free to go avian.
I'm going Avian
Until final changes come out an new avian getsQuote:
Originally Posted by Godly
-50% attack time
No horses
-50% BR
Elite 5/1
cleric sucks under these changes. merch or sage are clearly better for most kingdoms unless you're really worried about undead, and if you're in a decent kingdom you know how to handle undead.
Undead sucks. But a slight boost makes 40% of the server pick it.
Without a kd mate to feed you solds it's not always possible to do anything just by yourself, hence a decent kd is required as well, plus a good kingdom there'll be somebody paying attention for you when you need to sleep and to call you when you're needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by nameisis
The whole idea IS that they should burn themselves out so yes, but it needs to be balanced so it doesn't happen too fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuppe
Avian as suggested is unbalanced IF you can handle the attacktime, not so much if you can't. Adding ambush immunity without adding another near crippling penalty is a horrible horrible idea.
Avian already caters to the active players, the boost they need shouldn't be one that capitalizes on an ability that's already required. It should be something more general in nature.
You create something that is unplayable to nearly all players but ridiculously broken for those who can, that's a downright stupid idea.
Why do you think Godly is gonna play Avian with the suggested changes? ;)
Considering he will bend the rules into pretzels to get an advantage and even outright break them sometimes it shouldn't be hard to guess...
I'd play Avian next age if I were playing.
Hello,
i have a question regarding the proposed changes
Human
+ 20% Offensive Military Efficiency
Every 3 acres generates 1 book of science
- 20% battle gains
Spellbook: Fountain of Knowledge, Quick Feet
Elite: 6/3, 750, 5.75NW
Orc
+30% Attack Gains
Free draft
+25% Enemy casualties when attacking
-20% science effectiveness
Spellbook: Reflect Magic, Clear Sight
Elite: 7/1, 750gc, 6NW
One has - 20% battle gain and the other +30% attack gains.
- These 2 terms used here are one and the same? And if not, does the -20% gain covers for all type of attacks?
Yes. All attacks. (Trad, learn, mass, etc). But I don't think it affects honor gained from the attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinzo