Now that the final changes are out

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coboss

Elf:
Population/Acre: 25
Goal DPA: 45
pPA: 8
WPA: 3
TPA: 2
Elite Offense Value: 6
Defense Spec Value: 6
Military Units/acre: 16.25
D-specs/Acre: 7.5
Elites/Acre 4.5
OPA: 27.

Halfling:
Population/Acre: 26.25
Goal DPA: 45
pPA: 8
WPA: 2
TPA: 2.14 (*1.4=3)
Military Units/acre: 14.11
D-specs/Acre (or elites used for defense): 9
Elites/Acre (or elites used for offense) 5.11
OPA: 30.66

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Uhh so your elf is running 56% DR VS Halfling 62% DR?
Military units: 16.25 =/= 7.5+4.5 (12)
Ordray's calcs are correct.

Undeads are nice to try.

it's surprising that as the original question was on best attackers most of the thread is elf vs halfer!?! i expected avian vs human vs undead of which i still think avian and human are better. undead no loss on offense is nice but if you get chained either you release offense or become suicider for rest of war and an army is not just offense it's having the ability to hold on to your gains too and hit people more than they can hit you. in tis case not having chance to trian elites is big penalty especially between wars when others can elite pump

My opinion, because I'm bored and want to post:

Pure attacker, no hybridization:

Avian
Orc
Undead
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Halfling
Faery

This does NOT include personality bonuses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kayani

Fine.



DHaran - I don't need to know you well. But I've read dozens, if not hundreds of your posts. I said *I* would put Halfer above Elf. And I do. And then you said "no, not really", somehow inferring that you know more than I do about what I think.

How did I come up with those figures? It's called math. God, I don't even know why I'm responding to you ...

Of course it depends on what you want your province to do. And of course, obviously an Elf can have a better military than a Halfling if the Halfling doesn't train any troops or whatever. And of course there are other things to consider, such as hospitals and whatnot. But if you keep things equal, and just compare raw army strength/numbers, the Halfling wins.

Pick a draft rate and since you won't do the math, I'll show you. It's trivial.

All else being equal
25 people per acre. We're attackers, so ... I dunno - pick some number of wizards. 1.5 per acre raw. And we need peasants. How about 7.5 per acre? So, that leaves 25 - 1.5 - 7.5 for army/thieves. Or, 16 people per acre. Sounds good.

Let's give them 2 thieves per acre raw, 14 in military.

Ahh, but what combination you say?

Doesn't matter.

Elf:

0 Elite / 14 D Spec - 0 OPA, 84 DPA
1 Elite / 13 D Spec - 6 OPA, 81 DPA
2 Elite / 12 D Spec - 12 OPA, 78 DPA
3 Elite / 11 D Spec - 18 OPA, 75 DPA
4 Elite / 10 D Spec - 24 OPA, 72 DPA
5 Elite / 9 D Spec - 30 OPA, 69 DPA
6 Elite / 8 D Spec - 36 OPA, 66 DPA
7 Elite / 7 D Spec - 42 OPA, 63 DPA
8 Elite / 6 D Spec - 48 OPA, 60 DPA
9 Elite / 5 D Spec - 54 OPA, 57 DPA
10 Elite / 4 D Spec - 60 OPA, 54 DPA
11 Elite / 3 D Spec - 66 OPA, 51 DPA
12 Elite / 2 D Spec - 72 OPA, 48 DPA
13 Elite / 1 D Spec - 78 OPA, 45 DPA
14 Elite / 0 D Spec - 84 OPA, 42 DPA

Now, which is best? Pick your favorite.

Got it?

Ok, good. Compare it to a Halfling, all elite army, with 14 people per acre:

Halfling, 14 Elite / 0 Spec - 84 OPA, 70 DPA

Which Elf combo is better than 84 OPA, 70 DPA?

Now, consider that Halfing has 5% pop bonus, which is an extra 1.25 people per acre. You put them all into Elites, and Halfer is now at 91.5 OPA and 76.25 DPA.

What did I say?



And they can. Halfling with 5 TPA would have 12.25 Elites per acre, which is 73.5 OPA / 61.25 DPA which is still higher than most (all?) of the Elf combinations.

Now I know from experience that everyone's gonna come and say there are other things to consider. There are. I'm not debating that, and that's not what I said. I'm saying ONLY that raw army strength, Halfling has a higher number than an Elf, with all else being equal. However you wanna play your province and construct your army and build your acres and whatnot is up to you. And there is more involved that just looking at raw OPA / DPA.

But you wanted to see the mysterious math and there it is.

Now, make sure you pick my post apart like I know you're going to do. That always happens here. People aren't happy until everyone else is wrong for some reason. That's why I didn't wanna post math in the first place.

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So you make a post saying Halfer has a stronger army than Elf, post fraudulent figures that don't accurately represent actual ingame military concepts, realize you look ridiculous after probbably running some actual numbers, then ask us to ignore all factors but raw OPA/DPA, rofl. If you want to try and insult people and act like they can't do math, maybe you should learn a thing or two about the actual game first, lol. This is exactly why I wanted to see your ridiculous logic spelled out, because it's incredibly flawed. I'll make 2 very obvious points that a first age player should be able to figure out, let alone one such as experienced and elite as yourself to go insulting people on the forums, lol:

1. You are comparing a full elite army on a Halfer to Elf, and trying to use OPA/DPA as a reason to be stronger than Elf, which is hilarious. You are basically saying "hey look how awesome my army is, all I have to do is leave 0 DPA when I send out my pwnage 84 OPA to be better than your Elf!". You have to factor in PRACTICAL defense on a Halfer, not comparing full elite turtled army numbers to an Elf who is obviously not going to be full elite.

2. Elf and Halfer have the same offensive unit power. Elf has stronger defensive unit power. So if they have the same offense, and Elf has better PRACTICAL defense...... Feel free to try and argue the +5% pop argument as a counter to this fact, while I giggle.

Anyway, your arrogance is astounding. I made a comment to counterpoint your post, and was in no way rude or out of line. You trying to insult me or say I can't do math or that I'm just a troll won't bother me, because I can just read your posts and know the reality of things.

EDIT: For the record, I'm wrong all the time. Generally when this happens someone proves me wrong, you have yet to accomplish this feat. But keep assuming I'm out to get you, lol.

Don't make me use my mod stuff already, I'm still trying to figure out how all this stuff works =\

Please play nicely, for my sake =[

I am being nice. You've seen me be not nice. Just making valid arguments about the topic at hand while also defending myself vs unwarranted personal attacks. :)

Calling someone arrogant isn't exactly going to invoke a pleasant response. And it wasn't only directed at you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DHaran

I am being nice. You've seen me be not nice. Just making valid arguments about the topic at hand while also defending myself vs unwarranted personal attacks. :)

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uhm if the attacks are personal they must feel there is reason for it...perhaps you make too much sense or logic confuses them. Luckily you aren't responsible for their feelings of your opinions, no matter how wrong you are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caracal

it's surprising that as the original question was on best attackers most of the thread is elf vs halfer!?!

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The OP asked for us to rank them in order of power, so our debate originated in which is better: Halfer or Elf.

@DHaran - You have no idea how happy that your post made me lol Maybe it's because my head hurts so bad that I can only see out of one eye, but I found that funny somehow :P

Real math against DHaran: (I grant this is all on a technicality, as the differences are minor. But I figured I might as well, since I had the calcs built.)

Homes% 10%
BE Sci 20%
Fixed NW (build+sci+pes) 73
PopSci 15%
Off/Def ratio 50% 50%
Target PPA 8
Target rWPA 1
Target rTPA (after race) 1
TGs 20%
Forts 10%
OME 1.076
DME 1.1298

____________Elf__Halfer
Off Point_____6___6
Off NW______5.5__5
Def Point_____6___5
Def NW______6___5
Pop Mod_____1___1.05
WPA mod____1____1
TPA mod____1____1.4
Sci Effect_1.049___1
Pop_____29.859___31.154
MPA_____19.891___21.439
Ospec%__49.05%__44.53%
Dspec%__50.95%__55.47%
OPA_____77.752___75.941
DPA_____77.752___75.941
NW/A___189.435___181.91
MPNW___0.821___0.835
%Max___94.22%__95.83%


Notice that these assumptions are generous to the Elf - only 1 raw TPA before race mod, 50/50 split offense defense (use that elf d-spec), and I added 10% sci to the Elf for FoK. The Elf, in this case, is actually putting out higher OPA/DPA numbers than the Halfling... but at the cost of a higher NW/A. While the difference is small (no +3 tpa claims here), you can see that the Elf loses out to the Halfer for military power, even when we try to stack in it's favor. (It is quite posible by fiddling those numbers a little bit to make Elf and Halfer have the same OPA/DPA, with that same NW difference in place - up offense%, drop sci, go to 1.5 WPA or TPA., etc.)

Which to pick? I've said again and again I see no reason for elf this age - but it does have cheaper units. I'd much rather someone go halfer though - gnome intel is a good boon, and halfer can run a decent A/T, while elf A/M looks very poor to me. Neither one of them makes the grade as top attackers, but if you are ranking them I don't see much difference, and would value the gnome intel over the cheeper units.

You are making more silly assumptions!! Why would Elf and Halfer both run 50/50 ratios when Elf can run more offense and maintain equal defense due to the 0/6 spec?? That's an illogical comparison which doesn't take into account the Elf def bonus being used to gain more offensive output without sacrificing defense.

Also it is completely unacceptable to look at pure numbers and ignore all else when comparing overall military strength. Troops costs and loss potential is a huge factor in the offensive/defensive power of a province and can not be ignored. Elf has a clear advantage in this area and it's just plain irresponsible to not bring it into a discussion when comparing the two.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9519/hvse.png

What is not seen in the picture (I cropped the sheet): 1k acres, 100 bpa in Pop/BE/Thievery/Magic; 10% homes, 15% TG. Neither the spellbook, military costs/losses, income.
This example's target was 40 practical dpa (with MP). Tell me if you want other parameters.

And that's running equal TPA which wouldn't be the standard case. Nice visual Avenger.

Avenger I am sure you know this but the nw shold be 5 for halfling D specs shouldn't it? (1*D value)
Nice visual btw...