Flogger gets burnt out. (I presume)
Abs kds don't win regularly enough.
No one else tries.
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Flogger gets burnt out. (I presume)
Abs kds don't win regularly enough.
No one else tries.
Diplomacy is the key to success nowadays, not so much skills. Anybody can pump science and make good coin if you CF most of the server and have a 1/2 good strategy. +22.2% Population Limits. Small kd's or warring kd's that want to compete need to cf early and whore whore whore (smart whoring ofc), once your out of range of most of the Un CF'd kd's you change to an economy/science pump. Super easy but very boring. I wish to see more competition other then Floggers kd.
I was hoping That Meenie and Old School would have brought more competition to the top, not sure of which kd they are or if they exist still or what happened to them. BiO fell of, so hopefully one of those kd's in top 10 now can pick up a couple of good players from old top kd's to help them next age with a good OOP/diplomacy set up, this age is all but over for a non-absalom kd winning. It was nice to see a non Absalom KD win last age.
Btw jdorje no need to make "war" kds sound bad or imply we are strugling. Even growing "big" not all kds have the same goals, nor does one need to have a desire to "keep up" with the #1 kd to be succesfull. Truth be told had u guys all 100% sucked up top and we been then #1k in the game by a large lead i'd of pushed my kd to open up to free hits to find new war targets. Thats just me though, if u want to say we made a mistake it was waring pewpew, but then again mercy got screwed by TFC and we were smart enough to avoid them. Keeping up whoring or knowing u gimp yourself by exploring a feary 100% up to 14k acres when the "power-gamed" numbers say 16-19 is doable just means u're happy to have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
Its what "top" kds miss, the only mistakes WE made this age were lack of willingness to actually bully a kd 80% our size off 20-30% of their acres ASK for wars instead of demand them and to assume a kd that wants WAR would leave us alone when we said no instead of hitting us IN war. But then again those are only mistakes if we wanted #1 or though those things were acceptable. Who knows what we'll do in the future, but for now im happy.
edit addtion.
Very much not true. Both honor and science are valuable commodities. Honor gives u no nw boost so u can run a more efficient nw/acre prov with lots of honor than with lots of science. As well you cant stop kds from taking your science via learns since u lose a large % but can only recover a small portion of that when learning back. You can stop them from taking honor, since u lose next to no honor outside war u just pwn another kd in war and you keep your honor.Quote:
Originally Posted by nooblet
Honor~science so every "war" kd fights in a way that naturally gives high honor to key players. The issue is u cant grow quickly and keep wpa so using honor to leapfrog up is insanely hard. And one chain renders that honor gone and your age is then over. While if u take science early after geting beat down u dont have honor to fight with. If u cant get in a war quickly to build up some honor and use your science you lose, over time u get learned and its gone. Perfect example is Trollfag v simians theres no love lost between serveral kds and trollfags so when they droped every kd in a stronger position learned them and boom 40 million science gone.
The issue presented is not improvement. It is your bizarre view of things. I am defending the other side. I OOP in the top 10 all the time FYI. I just really hate dealing with all the crap that comes with doing that. Much better to simply war up into the top 15 with my saved explore pool, then pump in my last EoW CF, amass huge GC and overdraft, then drain my explore pool and hit fort into the waning ticks of the age moving from 15ish to 8-9 ish as by then I have 70K in my explore pool. Viola!Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
and in the meantime I had more fun over the age with less bull.
I stand by the basic statement that the top 5 KDs are basically irrelevant to the majority of the server and only matter to people like you and themselves.
This thread is actually very flattering for Absalom and there dominance.
Actually when you look at the last 5 ages in overall land rankings you see 3 till 4 abs kd's if you count HoH with them in top 5.
And that indeed means less competition in the top that are really going for land/nethw crown besides Pulse,Inzzolence and Bio who tried and some even succeeded at times,but than one of those kd's falls away for some reason like disbanding,break,different goal than whoring,less activity that age who knows.
And there are no other kd's who will take over and fill in that spot to give some competition in the top charts Land/nethw its either because they are not attracted by whoring and rather war for honor or war wins,or dont got the know how too actually whore on the charts.
Just my (late) two cents - I find it really strange that WWs are less important while Land and NW crowns are given so much more prominence in this game - a game with the basic premise of an almost-dystopia fixated on warring. To me, Utopia was always a warring game. Land/NW are only accessories to that... but to each his own I suppose. We could always start the Great Utopian Tournaments again. Always wondered what happened to them after #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
I've only read about 75% of the messages here, but what I think people have forgotten is that the KDs here do not live for anyone or anyone else's idea of fun. They/we live for themselves/ourselves. To the majority of KD's or people out there that aren't crowning or challenging for the top because they don't want to for whatever reason, the important thing is to have fun. To bring in a separate quote that is somewhat out of context but seems to have some parallel:
"Our existence does not undermine your democracy or your education system or peace in the Middle East for the simple reason that we do not exist for you. We do not exist for your country, or for your university, or for your ideals of democracy. In fact, we do not exist for "democracy" at all; we exist for real actual people, we exist for ourselves; and that means that our struggles (for democracy/freedom or otherwise) are ours and ours alone."
Also:
Furthermore, it seems like the only people accusing Abs of tying up the top are those that can actually be bothered to go for Land/NW crowns (which aren't very many, maybe only 10 KDs, tops?). Many others seem to find it OK playing around down here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Its most likely cause the "most warring kd" chart just been introduced while land and nw chart always been around and the competition used to be more fierce. Land is the bestest chart! Its more like its been that warring has been a accessorie to the nw/land chart imo. Cause those two charts have existed.Quote:
Just my (late) two cents - I find it really strange that WWs are less important while Land and NW crowns are given so much more prominence in this game - a game with the basic premise of an almost-dystopia fixated on warring. Utopia was always a warring game. Land/NW are only accessories to that... but to each his own I suppose.
Well, the other problem is war wins also do not take into account the quality of wars in any meaningful way. If I spend a 14 day war with ghetto cats and win or MP, I get fewer points than a KD that ghetto bashes for two or three min-time wars in that same time period. So it is difficult to give recognition to wars as a basis for achievment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korp
lol. Come on Palem, is this your way to incentivise 'top play'?
T10 is easy to get in? Of course. Until you get farmed.
You should take a break from your self imposed faery-theme kd, and try to step up your game. Like... an age in a t5 kd.
That is why top is ruined. The only way the top would ever be competitive is if ABS broke up or another alliance was made with T5 kingdoms to battle it out. That could actually be quite fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winslow
ELO Rating? Swiss system?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Takes into account both wins AND losses instead of the current (War Wins * Opponent's Size) where a KD with 7 wins against 95% is better than a KD with 6 wins against 110%.
Might be a real hassle to programme and calculate, though. But it would be the chart with way more meaning than it does now.
or join abs =) the evil odd mastermind of the universe =D
rofl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkz Azn
But seriously guys, you have to admit the alliance has kind of outlived its usefulness. You all could actually war each other and do something if you wanted to. In many ways, Abs KDs are as unmotivated as the rest of the server.....
Only way we ever gonna see an increase in kds going for crown is if the only way to grow is with wars.
Make WW give 5% acres and honor (10% of avg) + 10% going into the exp pool of both kds (and make this the only way the exp pool can increase.)
Your whineing is just gonna make less kd's going for crown imo..
How is it not an improvement? Being able to do 2 things is better than being able to do one thing. You're free to answer my question to citadel about where I inserted an opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
I'm not trying to "incentivise" anything. I'm asking EVERY kd (even the whoring ones) to do better. For the better warring kds, that means whoring. For the ghettos that means...well mostly everything, but one thing at a time I suppose. For the whoring kds, idk, maybe waring, or communication, or something. There's something they can do better. All of this "There's warring and then there's whoring, and those are separate things" are just a bunch of BS excuses that ghetto trash come up with to make them selves feel better about not knowing how to do handle the other side of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
If you whore and you can't war, you won't crown.
If you war and you can't whore, you won't crown.
It's two sides to the same coin. Stop ignoring the other side because it might actually cause you to face a different challenge.
The majority of the feedback I've gotten has been to the affirmative that utopians are lazy, easily offended, and will fight back with a fervor if confronted about their kds shortcomings.
I didnt answer you Palem cause there is no need to. You‘ve done nothing but impose opinion this entire thread since OP.
I tried to point out exactly that earlier but you dont seem to get it, and I dont feel strongly about it enough to get into endless nitpicking over it.
Ill just settle with saying our definition of improvement are not the same. What you consider improvement is step back in my eyes.
You can start utopian ukulele tournamet for all I care and get into battle of the bands with great utopian ukulele showdown, doesnt mean i‘ll get involved. Same with whoring.
If adding new skills is your definition of taking a step back, but then your definition needs improving. Developing and increasing the abilities of your kd is progress whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
Next you'll tell me that 1+1 =\= 2 because you say it doesn't.
I said I wont nitpick but i‘ll give it one last try before calling it a day.
Playing ukulele is a skill to isnt it? I have about as much interest in as I do in whoring.
I dont want to go to band practices, i dont want to book gigs, i dont want to explain why person xxx gets to play lead ukulele ... and most of all I dont want to deal with others ukulele band leaders and attend formal concerts in the theaters.
All I want is to go from club to club and jam with strangers.
btw I am using wierd analogies not to be amusing but to explain why is what you are saying inherently wrong on every level not just utopia.
Thing is the palem "crowning" is as meaningless as anything done in this game. Just because 6-7 kds value being the biggest and its super easy to track them via a chart that doesn't mean its the best thing that can be done in the game. Or that its better to devote 1 month to perfect "randoming," 1 month to bullying smaller kds, and 1 month waring capable kds than it is to war other kds that are seemingly equally as skilled as you. You know socialize make new friends have fun instead of trying to power game 200 other people in at that level what effectively boils down to whose better at math and psychology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
And what u miss is that
"doing better" doesn't mean whoring. I look at say if i want to war say some random no named kd. I can give them a nice advantage say a 15% acre lead couple of people that if played right could turtule, maybe even a flat out feary bank. Its a challenge its fun i get meet new people and do cool things like sold bouncing to get an "edge." However say im gonna war Freeaksytle, i know their good i want every advantage i can have...but do i need to have whored for land and be 130% their size because they made one small mistake week 2 of a 12 week age. No, lets have a real fight on about even terms see what advantages I can overcome, what I cant and what advantages they'll give me and what they wont. It makes for good fights and you get the advantage of not having to FORCE someone to war when they simply wont have the activity to win due to real life issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
If today I learn how to play the ukulele then tomorrow I'm better than I was today.
Learning to play the ukelele isn't a commitment to devote my entirely life to trying to make a career out of it.
@Persain - Who won age 5?
Palem, if warring and whoring are not different things requiring different setups, then please explain the differences between ghetto cats, FS, and and and verses what you see in the top 5 KDs. Thank you.
**edit** to be clearer, explain the obvious differences in race and personality selection between them. Once that is done, we can go into the differences between their basic builds.
Top 5 doesn't stop growing.
**Sheister's Edit**
Top 5 kds make better race choices than warring kds because they understand the game mechanics better. Economy usually wins wars. They typically choose the race with the best econ.
There has always been relatively few quality kingdoms in the game in any era. Never underestimate the the ability of other kingdoms in the top 10 to do something remarkably stupid.
If you want to talk about encouraging growth you have a serious problem as you have to go against 10 years worth of anti growth changes and attitudes from players. Some serious changes would probably be needed to be considered and every indication I've seen is that the people running the game don't have the time/interest in doing such things. It's also worth remembering the game exists in a very different world to those older days just because of changes in technology and the gaming tastes of people.
No sir. You are wrong again. Every time early you wave a top KD with all heavy attackers in tow and KD made to wreck stuff they CF you quickly. I have done it a number of times. They know that dwarves are not going to beat orc heavy attackers when they have no science yet and have no wpa becaus etheir BE bonus has not generated enough off their guilds yet. They don't war until after they are fully pumped and much larger than anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
Stop the BS with they choose the best race choices. They make choices to live in the particular environment that they war in.
Case in point, BiO last age, chose the dwarf cleric and similar whoring BS. They got RUINED by ghetto cats and later by monument because what they chose could not stand up to real wars. (though to be more fair, monument rode the ghetto cat's coat tails on that one....AW takes way to long to recover from).
Yes and thats why Mercy got off free wave from Pulse start of this age with their heavy HU/Cleric setup and took a lot of land which placed them at #1,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
oh wait they didnt, that happened in someones head.
That's the problem. It sounds more like a difference between playing the Ukelele as a casual player, as opposed to playing it as a concert performer. Learning to play the ukelele is one thing. Why would you want to be a performer in a ukelele orchestra when it's not fun/you don't think it will be fun, as opposed to just going around to random jamming sessions with others that know how to play the ukelele while having the same, if not a larger amount of fun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
It's a difference between just playing utopia for the lulz, playing semi-seriously, or as part of a warring/whorring/any combination of the two setup. We all (maybe not all, but a reasonable amount) know how to play. The issue is how well you play, and which level you think is enough for you to still have fun while playing.
Abs is such a pathetic alliance. You'd think they would feed on other 25 man provinces, instead of 20 man provinces who just left the ghetto.
No, they're pathetic. They couldn't fight for honor if they tried to, because they don't know how to.
There's your answer. They fight for land and networth because that's all they know, and that's all they can do.
They're good at that to the point where warring KDs don't compete for land or networth, because there just isn't any point competing with a KD that has 5 Human Merchants, and 20 Dwarf Merchants. Like really? Merchant? Our ghettos don't allow attackers to be merchants, because it's such a piss poor choice for one.
But they aren't really into warring or WWs. The most reknown KD with the worst WW ratio. Thumbs #*$&ing up. (Y)
we were waving every kingdom .... seem like they were giving us cf and free wave .... odd =\ where were the war kds earlier in the age when we were oop ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
yupp ... land mum mum ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty11
Well, a few things: One, probably not on island with you or near you. I know our KDs did not go near each other for personnel reasons this age. I think also, many are intimidated by the avian choice...... It may also be that you are able to raise large cows and killers with near immunity because of the alliance and many/most KDs don't know or don't want to take the time to deal with one of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkz Azn
The cows are something no independent KD can do as easily as Abs KDs because we just don't have the relationships to safely put em up. This is also something that would take skill in many KDs and requries less skill for you to accomplish because of your pre-existing relationships.
But I think it is fair to say that Sanctuary last age and this age is NOT the typical crown contending KD either. Since we are painting with broad brush strokes, there are bound to be exceptions to most statements made.
/me shrugs.
oh well.
Merchant is an awesome attacker. I would argue that none of you know how to play...
Honor is quite easy to compete for actually. It's all about baiting super easy kingdoms like your own. We typically win honor crowns on the ages that we aren't trying or when most of our players are on vacation.
How was dorf/cleric a whore specific pick last age? It was a war pick(best pick for war imo), just so happened whoring kd's knew they'd have to war. It had a good elite with fanat, qf, and cs, with BE bump and no negatives while cleric was absurdly OP(even if very ffew kd's used it properly).
Wars are different at whore lvl and war lvl because activity/skill is different, there's no penalty for warring 3 weeks outside the top, and because you can use cf's to pump science before wars and stock gc for big bumps at wars.
this. whether you go for war wins in the bottom, combined chart in the middle, land and nw chart up top. no matter which route you chose, the absolute, unquestionably best personality of this age for an attacker of any race was merchant, both in war and out of war, yet it was 5th most picked of the 6 attacking personalities.Quote:
Originally Posted by octobrev
to me this proves what dorje hinted on, about players not knowing how to compete economically with the top few kingdoms. the top kds are just way more effecient, and take far less time to build the same number of units, any 2 kingdoms on the server can grow to the same acres, have the same military numbers, but if 3 or 4 kingdoms can do it twice as fast as every other semi decent kingdom, the gap that nubhat palem is whining about is created.
No clue, i could look up who got the most land, what about honor :P. Its like saying who wins world of warcraft before each new content pack. Is it the guy with the most pvp wins, the guy with the most gold, best gear, most raids some of those things aren't even tracked, doesnt mean the guy with 2 billion gold is worse then the guy with the best gear in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
When the game started wars/fights/fake wars all sorts of things existed and the only way to show how people were doing relative to each-other was nw/land/fame. As the games gone on its shifted VERY MUCH to "waring" being the focus even when the game was growing there was a shift to making "war" a focus. Otherwise u wouldn't have reduced losses hitting into a war, better attack times in war, big honor gains in war, more land gain in war.....and on and on. The rational for that is waring is fun, its a game u can be the best and still only play minimally. Whoring acres is political bs, you're not "better" because u find that fun and u can manipulate people.
Unless the game were to introduce forced wars (like if your say rage and u attack someone 40 times in 40 hours it auto declares war) politics isn't needed to have fun nor be the "best", the largest sure, but even if i was the best player in the game at politics if i dont want to do it u cant say me not participating in that means i "lose" or am bad. The game will never go to forced wars because its not "good" for the game. But u make it so u can force a war, war provided more of a benefit than not war and i bet alot of war kds could easily compete because they get to not participate in the political bs they dont like. Then again every freaking player in the game would burn out in 1-2 ages and the game is dead.
A perfect example where u completely miss the point is
here. My kd is in the top 5, however I doubt you'd ever argue our race choice was best for whoring. Yet we're competing with the a setup alot of war kds would use. Do u think when we were 15% bigger than pulse we could have waved them and won. Our cf is worded were i could have been a dick and tried, when they've asked not to war. Compare that potential war to the Simians V pew pew war...effectively the same setups that would have existed yet pew pew won quite nicely. what do u think the outcome would be though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
If abs set a of standard of war=win, u can "random" into kds to get your setup straight, but leave "top" kds alone to fight it out their then anyone could compete. But based on your argument you claim is simians and pulse are equally skilled at choosing races. Yet EVERY war kd knew simians was dumb last age running 25 halfers. Your argument misses the point because skill =/=desire. And all your whining that u get better growing big doesnt make it true. The only "war" strategy i've learned this age so far is a way to avoid using anon when chaining as orcs. Its a skill sure, but not one i'll use because i think its not the right way to do things.
impossible to have a cow with the current explore formula =) ... odd ... i dun want a crown, i want my second place streak to keep going ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
you can whore with any setup ... the secret is *censored*Quote:
Originally Posted by Persain
greatest second place streak of all time?
always =) odd ... winner come and go, but second place stay forever =)
You're using BiO as a case study for how top whoring kds choose race setups and how they get "ruined" by other kds when they fell too far behind? BiO isn't even a whoring kd anymore. They don't even tag.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
I could be mistaken, but wasn't Monument in Sanctuary's path of destruction after they got beat down by GT58 early and ended finishing #2 pretty much through warring alone? They seemed to do ok warring YOU in YOUR environment.
Edit:
@Persain - This is nothing like world of warcraft. Everything on utopia is connected, not so much in WoW. You want honor? You need to war. You want to crown? You'll need to war. You want to win wars? You may need to engage in a war or two. As far as your race setup and competeting. You have 1 more war win than Rage and you are 62% of their size.