They dont need to do CFs and Deal with it. You can play with 2-3 CFs max. Im sure in WW range if you have honor or WWs you have some CF with KDs around you too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runefire
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They dont need to do CFs and Deal with it. You can play with 2-3 CFs max. Im sure in WW range if you have honor or WWs you have some CF with KDs around you too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Runefire
CR hasnt had much in the way of CFs this age and they are doing ok so far... just means you don't get much of a rest runefire :p
AMA was pretty reasonable when they farmed us out early age. Those elaborate CF terms are mostly between kingdoms that pose serious threat to each other... most growth kingdoms don't want protracted hostiles with ghettos when there's a server full of targets.
I'm saying that for most kingdoms, early growth for the first two weeks of the game, and letting province size stabilize naturally as a result of competition, is better than stalling at 400 acres. The former is a pretty good chance to come out with better books and wpa after two weeks, the latter is a 100% chance of not having those things; and if other kingdoms don't want free books and wpa, that's just an advantage you should have later on, without spending as much time pumping for it. The key is to grow out smart and use that growth to build up the right things, rather than rushing for acres for the sake of having acres - that just leads to being farmed out quickly (and we wouldn't have been farmed as badly or grown as big as we did if some people didn't screw up their protection, my ghetto made tons of mistakes.)
The cost of exploring 100-200 acres once oop breaks winds up being less in lost troops than attacking for the same acres, and there is no reason why an attacker can't landgrab (or retal, or plunder) on top of that. The extra econ from exploring (which i hope to god you're turning into elites and thieves and acres for guilds) usually winds up being better than 500-1000 extra specs/thieves/elites in the long term, since the exploration starts paying off immediately whereas landgrabbed acres have a 10-16 hour delay (and burn troops anyway in the process - along with the lost opportunity cost of being unable to retaliate or plunder something). That could be the only exploration a kingdom does, and it would still change the server dynamics dramatically... most certainly it's a profit for the kingdom in almost every situation, as even if the kingdom is waved oop the explored acres make up for economic losses...
will do ;) and we had no money by oop, everyone maxed their science and was running 40% schoools. No one had over 100k gc at any time, and learns cost us less than 500 books. we ate like 4-5 hits for minimal acres lost. when you dont care about acres u dont care if u get hit :PQuote:
Originally Posted by noobium
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If they really wanted to do that then u have to make growing/catching up easy. Science would be buy able in terms of bpa and not points, WW bonus would give not only free science but free land and wpa. The amount of free wpa would be based on how much land u got, ie im 6 wpa i get 200 acres the WW gives me 1200 wizzards.Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam
How much land u get would need to be based on your kd size relative to max kd size. i.e. im 20k acres the largest kd is 100k acres i win, i end up at (20+100)/2=60k acres + the acre or honor bonus choice. Now boom every kd that wins a war instantly get scaled up towards the top and the top has to constantly struggle to pull away.
extreme sci at 300 acres or intensive at 750-800, hmm...
yea well the problem is if we stalled at 400 acres and pumped we'd never find a kd willing to war us untill they caught up in pumping...like 8+ days into the age. Stalling for science then training meant we got war at day 10-11 and had a week of science instead of week of just waiting. Most of the past ages the only kd that could pump as quick as us was PoD (wared them oop twice in the past 7 ages).Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
I've played in KDs that have done this, and what it amounts to is a week of looking for targets and being bored. It's counterintuitive, but I'm sure you know that the goal of a warring KD is not to be much more pumped than the other KDs around them; at least not at the beginning of the age. That simply ends up scaring potential war targets, especially when you have high tpa/wpa for your size. If the point is to pump at your acreage and downsize later, you're better off just warring oop. If the point is to pump at that size, you'll end up waiting for people to finish their first wars before you have your own. By then, it may even be too hard to find war because your KD's tpas/wpas are too high. Pumping and searching for war targets for too long puts a damper on KD morale, and if I was a leader I'd personally like to keep spirits high and avoid any situations that may involve replacing players due to boredom. Like I said, instead of blaming the players for playing the way they do, you might garner more results by looking at the game design and seeing what can be fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
The "You don't war in the top 10 and that's a fact" argument doesn't really make sense when looking at the game. in the top 10 there are currently 3 kd's with 0 wars(and all 3 of these are very much out of choice, and not because they wanted to war but couldn't find a partner.). The other 7 have an average of 3.5 wars(3 have had 3 wars and 3 have had 4 wars). When looking at the War Win chart, outside of the top 6 kd's, it seems like most kd's that are down with having wars have had 3-4. If you want to war, then growing larger doesn't seem to prevent you from getting wars.
Now if you want to compete for #1, your chances will be increased if you follow growth mechanics as proscribed by the age's changes. This might include not warring or being open to cf'ing instead of forcing wars. However, i would counter that by saying 1) You already are saying that it's wars that you are interested and 2) the time spent oow when you are larger is not spent aimlessly like it is everywhere else in the game, but rather can be used as a time to plan long term a war so that when the war does happen it can involve higher amounts of strategy.
I agree that "You don't war in the top 10 and that's a fact" doesn't hold up. However, that's not what I said. Those top KDs that have warred 3-4 times warred their way up and took the acre rewards upon win (I believe your KD is one of them, waving Pyro oop?). I'm speaking about warring KDs that explore up in protection in order to pump and then war down later. If the goal is to stay in the warring tier, there is largely no point to exploring up.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
Although it may not be enticing for you to spend your time "aimlessly" in-between wars, a lot of warring KDs just like to either take down time after a long war or just keep warring right after they leave eowcf, and they're certainly not wrong to want to do so. As of now the mechanics haven't really aimed to streamline the disparity between NW and warring KDs, and to be honest I'm not sure how it can be done.
Interestingly, of the 6 top kds with 3+ wars, only 3 of them have a winning record (and a fourth is even, at 2/4).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare_
There's nothing wrong with downtime between wars -- it's just that downtime between wars on 500 acres is spent buying science on 500 acres, which is meaningless when you hit 2k -- or much less impactful, let's say. There is also more strategy in wars when you're larger, frankly -- and not just in the ways you can prep (such as soldierpumps) but in the more stark difference between chained and unchained provs and how they can interact with eachother.
The downtime is still downtime if you want it, just it has aim. And yeah, your correct about sploring oop imo. I think if you only want to war then you don't want to splore since everyone is same size so infinite targets(not to mention your so weak after sploring in current changes) and if you want to grow you don't really need to splore either(since you can whore to the front and then pool). I actually don't think we used pool in protection this age or last. You can splore like nooblet is suggesting and pump, leading to a big wpa advantage once others catch up via ww but if your doing it for that purpose then you probably won't be prepared for kd's interested in growth who will wave you and people who are your size via ww will have more bpa and probably more military due to ww bonus/eowcf.
The strategy just isn't there in the lower tier with a few exceptions. A lot of kingdoms simply slug it out not really addressing wpa/tpa shortcomings and I commend them. Problem is these same kingdoms don't do much more than slog. So I think you can engage pumped kingdoms with good strategy, but it's rare for lower tier kingdoms to do both: non-pump, good strategy.
Edit: I'm addressing the kingdom norm. That is, the great majority of the server.
Right. Honestly I haven't been watching the age unfold so I won't speak further about top wars and how KDs ended up how they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
The downtime spent pumping on 500 is useless if the plan is to grow much larger. This isn't really the case though, and many KDs only end up at 2-3k close to the end of the age. I personally like warring at larger sizes for the reasons that you stated, but for many that just isn't a reality. Stiffer competition, less competition, etc etc. I know there are certain players who detest the possibility of needing to grow in order to find a war, and when you're that high it could be 10k acres. It's easy enough to complain about players who don't want to grow, but there are reasons for this that should be addressed first.
current oop is quite 1 dimensional. even whoring kingdoms really have little reason to explore much as its easy to random so better for them to save pool I would think.
I really think bringing back 3 day oop, and then 1 day protection for anyone after oop would be better :(
Well, we can say what we want about how many wars there has been among kingdoms in the top 10. But at the end of it all, one of the kingdoms that hasn't warred is probably going to win.
old oop sucked. there was only one way to do old oop, and it involved a lot of micromanagement over 3 days.
new oop is straightforward and there are multiple ways to go about it. not exploring is okay, but the tradeoff of 500-1000 soldiers for extra econ is almost always beneficial. attack acres can be padded on to that. for ghettos, the explore pool is almost never tapped dry, so it's a non-issue.
for what it's worth, before i abandoned province i kept about 2x the total books of most provinces in the war tier, having checked some of the better war tier kingdoms (though i was sage, so it should be expected). science from war wins is only compensation, and besides it's based on the premise that small kingdoms will find favorable wars that they can win - we found war day 10-12, which is about the same time a smaller kingdom would find a favorable war. second war came about a week later i think? maybe 10-12 days? forget the exact date. third war would have happened in a similar time frame too if the kingdom had their act together and actually ya know waved people.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
the other provinces didn't have as much bpa, but that was mostly their own stupidity and refusal to listen to any science pumping advice (or any advice) in favor of doing stupid things. the better ones were about even with other warring kingdoms.
a few ages back, my old kingdom (same kingdom) was in the best position for a warring kingdom to build up science, and if people were mind-bogglingly incompetent, the whole kingdom has better science by far than any of the kingdoms they would have fought that age. unfortunately, people are lazy and don't want to put in the work to learn attack, and so the few who actually played that situation right got farmed, and the war-a-thon crowd whined, *****ed, and demanded a land drop (and somehow botched that, even).
like i said, the game (or at least this kingdom) has gone to such a level that people want the game handed to them, and strategic thinking in ghettoland is hopeless. you can grow out some and find wars, just a matter of patience and picking targets that will be a fair challenge, and then managing growth properly and monitoring the server. it's pointless to speak in generalities, the ranking charts are largely grown from player actions and the way things are creates a self-sustaining crisis where only a small group of kingdoms benefit.
seems like AMA and BB really ruined the game :(
So exactly who in their right mind would war BB or AMA? It's by choice in the sense that they obviously went for land growth and managed it better than everybody else. But I doubt that either of them would have minded a war or two at some point. The problem is that the air is thinner the higher up you get so there is less availible partners and none of those partners would willingly war either AMA or BB because it'd be a guaranteed loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
BB tried to notice PewPew and make them war them, PewPew selfrazed their provinces rather than war them, AMA did the same with Rage with the same, albeit an even more spectacular result, it also seems that AMA tried noticing Havoc and Havoc would rather make a deal for 20% of their acres or something like that than war AMA.
So I wouldn't say that it's entirely by choice that they're warless, in fact a war would probably have been a very good thing for them and preferable because it'd let them concentrate acres onto cows and some of the core leaving the rest viable to random again.
It's almost like you quoted half of what someone said even as the other half refutes your response.
TLDR: 7/10 of the top 10 have warred an average amount. People who claim they just want to war can do things that ama/bb might not be willing to do to get those wars(as evidenced by the 7 in the top 10 that do want to war). If ama/bb were largely interested in warring then each could have had wars this age very easily.
Anyone in AMA/BB that wants to war should credit their way like so: credits, invite-outvite x 2=4 invites.
A) find some province in a kingdom going to war with some kingdom you hate. Exchange invites to kingdoms.
B) AMA/BB sit the knucklehead who exchanged places(don't want a war kingdom guy doing this unmonitored)
C) after the war the invites are exchanged back and both players have the same province they had before.
~ revenge is expensive because it's worth it ~
why doesn't havoc war fake rage? instead they are too busy teaching each other how to unsuccessfully cheat via exploiting game mechanics and getting actioned for it. less time cheating, more time warring.
i still think it's pretty silly for people to worry about staying small in a game where acres can be so volatile and easy to access.
People might deem it a FW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
All in game wars are fake. Real wars last for ages on the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Will you shut up about warring? Stop talking about CR and RBL as if they are somehow different from AMA/BB in terms of attitude. You all just want structured acres collection actions. Not wars. Wars are actually supposed to be competitive. Not one of your kingdoms actually wants even a hint of competition. so just stop it.
noobium, it is because the way game mechanics are now (not that I am sure it would change too much under some different set) if you grow into range of one of the three kingdoms that has a lot more experience in the game, you just have a miserable time from dealing with the ego's of their leadership to dealing with their abuse of mechanics to create structured acres collections. No one minds a loss, but the mechanics make it so you can't even play a match against them until they give you a button to press for war. So its not like you can do anything but be a victim of abuse. It is not like they are really doing it because they need an advantage, they do it so that they can have EVERY advantage before they commence their acres collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
That is why it is better just to avoid them. Sadly the only method the game allows for this is to stay away from them in terms of NW which means (largely) land.
Define a lot?! A pretty basic strategy works for every race and doesn't quite require an extreme time schedule.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
The only provinces that really required extra time and planning during protection used to be those that would be exploring. You'd want them to optimize their provinces because all other exploring provinces would try and optimize. And as we live in a competitive environment, nobody wants to loose and thus do their best!
For the most part, you did not have to do a LOT. I recall one protection with a very competitive player who did not miss a single tick for three days (yes he woke up every hr to tweak it). that is ONE player i saw do that. The result I saw OOP, was he was about 10% better (defined as 15% larger with 10% more defense) off than I was (who had a normal sleep schedule, but logged 16 -18 ticks/day). How much difference would that 10% make? I dunno. There is a lot to it and depends on who is on your island and what happens OOP. Perhaps you think I micromanage a LOT. Compared to logging in 2X/day, the differences do grow. But there are diminishing gains. You don't earn that much more gc/tick by investing sci each tick, etc. It is farm more criticle to log in the PRECISE ticks that you need to. E.g. the training tick, the build tick.
So yes, doing a lot of micromanagement has a benefit, but I don't know that it is as significant as some might think.
Yea, game mechanics are to blame for losing against more experienced/organized kingdoms.. got it.
Sheister, do you not realize how ridiculous your endless tirade sounds?
What is stopping you from using the same strategies the best kingdoms use to dominate the game? So you would probably still lose from lack of experience. But instead of getting the experience and improving, you choose to whine on the forums and demand to be given advantages for free. Not a very good long-term strategy as that still wouldn't teach you how to win on your own.
Still, if you don't want to compete at the top level of play you can easily stay out of range of those kingdoms and have fun warring kingdoms in a lower tier. This isn't being forced on you, it's your own choice to not want to compete against the best kingdoms.
TLDR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5dWYZAR9B0
TommyB, do you not realize how ridiculous you are when you don't read? I did not say the mechanics cause the loss. I said the mechanics make it so that you can't war until the kingdom in the superior position allows it.
I agree, it is my own choice not to compete against the top kingdoms. I was responding to noobium who was stating that he thought it was silly to want to not compete. However, increasingly kingdoms are making that precise choice.
And based on what information did you conclude we (BB) weren't interested in warring?Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
I don't know what information topsy is using for that, but for me, I have it from darkie that you don't want to war, you just want acres.
/me shrugs.
But topsy may have some independent basis for his assertion.
Unfortunately I do read your posts and all I see is you demanding to be given war 'on equal footing' instead of work on bringing your kingdom into a good position to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Your last post shows exactly where the problem is. You don't understand that wars are fought for acres. The moment you want to war but aren't interested in acres you stop making sense. Of course BB would gladly take your acres if you refuse to fight for them. I have no idea what else you would expect from them?
Pew stated that they didn't war was because their kingdom was 2/3 inactive
Either he trolled you or he's a nubQuote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Summary of this thread (no insult to any kingdoms. this is un-biased view)
1) You cant aim for nw/land when you war your way up. Current game dynamics do not allow this to happen feasibly. The kingdoms that do not war will be more pumped, probably larger and such. Again, this is game mechanics, there's ALMOST zero ways to bridge the gap between warring and whoring tier. Any solution proposed will have glaring leaks.
If AMA/BB didnt war a single war this age, and are sitting on top of the charts, they are not to be blamed. They want to win nw/land, and they chose the best strategy. end of story. I dont care if I dont get to war (though I will wave kingdoms when I'm in superior positoins), I can just whore and grow and probably war once per age and if I win nw/land, I'm happy enough.
CR/Pyro can go and war all they like, but at the end of the day, it would most probably put them in a much worser spot when faced up vs AMA/BB and have lower chances. That's the fact of Utopia, nothing can be changed. CR's age was probably defined to always be lagging behind AMA/BB the moment they got into an OOP war with Pyro, and vice-versa.
Pew/RBL/Legacy/ZZ?/Wsk? were kingdoms that tried to whore, but once again, early age is very important, and once you screw it up, the rest of the age will be -.- unless you find something else that's motivating for your kingdom to do for the rest of the age. again, that's Utopia.
Just think about it, CR and AMA have their roles swapped almost identically last age and this age.
There's almost no way to merge warring and whoring tier together. The only suggestion that I think is remotely close to achieving this, is to make an age 6 weeks long. It will totally change dynamics.
2) Nightmare, can haz back to pyro?. I miss QQing to you.
-cJ
No people actually enjoy good wars and winning them and crowning after. With that said people also follow their own strat and do what is best rather than what QQers in forum want. When Abs was around there were people who always wanted those kds to war as well. RPP and FPP alliances of last age were a lot worse for the game than BB/AMA being friendly which is no where near the level of commitment Abs kds had to each other(this excludes havoc because they were not truly and but a ghetto merger at the end of the alliance days and they sure played like a ghetto).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
Just to correct you on something. It was AMA who didnt want to war CR. Not the other way around. And there was never any notice between AMA and CR. We actualy asked AMA to war us. AMA's goal is acres and not wars, and a CF deal or comming for us when we couldnt war them were both better scenario's to get acres then a war with us would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
BB earlier didnt want to war us either. They came for us when we didnt have any chance to war them rather then give us time to train up to war them.
In both cases CR wouldnt have hesitated to war either of them if we had been given time to train up. That would mean warring them with a cow, science, wpa, size, gc stock disadvantage. In both cases, both KD's didnt want war (besides perhaps a complete farmwar we would never give them), but they wanted acres. Which given their position and presumed goals is a fair choice.
Incorrect. You INFER that I am demanding a war on equal footing. What I am saying is no one will war on such unequal footing where they have zero chance to even have fun. To say that pew did not work to bring themselves into a position to do so is also patently false. Pew FAILED to do so, but to say pew did not TRY is simply wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyB
You misconstrue my last post entirely if you think I do not believe that wars are fought over acres. My point was not that wars are not fought over acres, but that AMA/BB/CR are more interested in acres than in war. For example, AMA/BB/CR would rather diplomatically strong arm a kingdom into free feeding for them than to allow that other kingdom to pursue its previously planned war. The posters in this and other threads are very clear that the object is the acres in and of themselves, irrespective of enjoyment and that it is preferable (mathematically) to always make free uncontested hits. Thus the game that AMA/BB/CR play is to develop and stock to where they can leverage a threat for free acres, which they then develop and stock to leverage into free acres.
That is, they prefer to negotiate structure acres collections rather than war. Most of the other kingdoms on the server prefer to simply war and feel no need to maximize their leverage on an opposing KD. This is not to say they do not seek advantage, but when they have say 5/6 possible advantages, they do not need to further prep the target to obtain the 6th advantage before passing the button and just getting down to it. This is because they understand that to get a war, the other side has to have something they can work with. But again, that is because they want a war, not a structured acres collection.
You need to separate wars from acres acquisition. The acres acquisition is something that occurs irrespective of wars and wars occur irrespective of acres acquisition. The two are not absolutely linked.
Fair enough, I am sure that after all acres settlements have been done and there is NOTHING else to do in the game, that a war right before crowning is satisfactory. However, the behavior of these kingdoms throughout the age is to use diplomacy to set up structured acres collections. I am not sure what the connection of the alliance behaviors has to my post or if that is some general observation. I personally have no problems with alliances because the game was at its most vibrant when there were LOTS of alliances around, a lot more underhanded play and backstabbing and far more "dishonorable play" that what people see now. To clarify that a little, it was not dishonorable at the time but might be considered such by today's standards. Of course, I personally find today's play far more offensive than the worst I saw back in the ages 20-34.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus