Thoughts on 'Dibs' and Definition of Hostile

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Originally Posted by TheOne

Say what you like, but Nesta & me have been running our wars for the past x wars. and I have been running far more waves the last few wars due to Nesta being busy during those war periods. Though this age we had new recruits who have helped us alot. the score stands at 2-0 now, and both times were legit 1v1 wins (48hrs and 72hrs) :D Too bad I gotta act not so humble now :) wanted to be humble in victory but you usually piss people off so much that they decide to be meaniee!

Unless it can be proven that Ovenmitt intentionally gave the crown to Pew Pew by putting up a weak fight (or was it just Simians burnt out and not being able to perform?), Pew Pew isnt going to just wave you 2 times and tell you 'okay, I waved you two times. I'm going to FO and let your crown because I'm not supposed to wave more than two times'.

There is no free lunch in the world. If you are currently leading the honour chart and a kingdom thinks they can overtake you, you are not going to forbid them from waving you based on some 'rules&regulations' that you want to draw up here. Because that isnt going to happen. and the thing you did to Pew Pew this age isnt small at all btw, not sure what world are you living in.

Which brings us to the point on what you are trying to propose : (and I hope we can have a serious discussion on this)

'Kingdom A is only entitled to x waves off Kingdom B if Kingdom B does not wish to war with Kingdom A'

You proposed x = 2. While it seems okay in most situations, I dont think such a guideline can ever be enforced. And there are certain situations in which it is not feasible: i.e #2 chasing #1 in honour crown when they are close in nw, #2 kingdom waving #3 kingdom for acres to catch up to #1, and #1 cant interfere due to CFs with both #2 and #3 (if monarch of #3 is pro, he would settle things based on acres in quantity instead of amount of waves.. or just let his kingdom get waved).

In addition, what constitute a free wave? So many times you have mentioned in the forums that AMA did 7 free waves on Simians early this age, and I havent bothered to correct you.. because it isnt 7 free waves at all. You were retalling+oping back. As far as I know, free wave = retal-free + op-free hits back.

Which comes to the point, if you are going to give x free waves, why not just do diplomacy and agree on a fixed acres for cf deal? Which goes back to the point of why Kingdom A wants to wave you.. what benefits do they get etc. If it means to better strategically place themselves then there is definitely some reason, but if it's to disband a kingdom or just having a grudge against them, then yes there should be some limit to the amount of waves.

And it comes down to the survival of the fittest in the land/nw charts. It will come to a point where someone has to drop out during the age, and Kingdom A (who is waving Kingdom B) monarch must be able to do pro diplomacy so that he can gain xx waves/ xx acres without pissing off Kingdom B's monarch. The rationale is simple : we outplayed you and we are here to collect some acres, I am going to take as much as possible w/o pissing you off so that you wont raze me later on. And why do Kingdom B monarch agree to this? because he will be in the same position as Kingdom A monarch alot of times and know how is it like to be asking for acres.




Not sure for dibs,

but there can be no clear definition of what constitute a hostile. The game is too dynamic for this to happen in my opinion. Sure, we can get the leaders of all the top few kingdoms to draft up a proposal, but it will take alot of time and there will be quite a fair bit of loopholes (due to the fact that the game is dynamic)

Tax/acres4cf : it happens. and it's mutual between both sides. (if Kingdom B doesnt want to give up acres, just go raze-retal instead. there's pros and cons of this). It becomes an issue when it impacts 3rd party kingdoms.. but let's face it, any decision you make affects a 3rd party kingdom in utopia.


-cJ

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Funny that you say this, because when pyromaniacs played for honor we should have waved you with demands for unlimited waves and see how that had worked out for you. Maybe even landdropped for science to make sure you absolutely stand no chance. I am glad someone takes pewpew side after countless of ages worth of ****play in various ways. Who better then Pyro to stand by thier side.
Lets agree to disagree and i will keep this in the back of my head, if this is Pyros beleifs or just your own way of thinking i dont know, it does not matter. Its 100% wrong.

From the point we stopped hitting/opsing AMA because meter got to high they took 7 free waves.
In my own book, its just a greedy thing to do to get ahead of the competition. But in general its all a meter issue so thats what needs changing because land trade was even and we would have wanted to trade land for many days more before just maybe we would have gave them land or a war.

The situations with AMA and pewpew can in no way be compared because we did fight back from the start.

Pewpew have had a way different approuch, even if you give free waves we will NEVER stop hitting.
I cant help you are delussional enough to think this is okey.

I am sure, that if you keep insisting on this it will happen to you some day and i am more then sure you will not think it is fair when it does. Obviously ****play can never change with people like you around cJ.
The GB that just happend to AMA says it all and thats just the tip of the iceberg. There was only two kds gaining from this, one of the more greedy things i have seen the last couple of ages and the only time i have seen a kd take advantage of its own allies in a GB only to proceed and try to crown. You sir, is a joke.

With that said, i will not argue more with you and try to make this game a better place and most of all this topic a place we can make some rules against ****play, ****play that happend to us all that you dont feel like setting up any sort of rules against. Its in the end of the day your call.

GL

EDIT: Lets say Pyro would not been able to fight CR this age, would that have made CR the rightful owner of all your acres? Because then #1 vs #2 could have applied. I would not think this is the way we want to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Elit

Taking acres for CF is ok, its how game work for hell long. What did this age havoc is weird. You cant ask kd for acres to let him war other kd. Its **** play.

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And we didnt. Read what both Anri and myself said on the matter.
We didnt ask for acres to let Simians war others.
We asked for acres in exchange for an extended CF.
Simians demanded in diplo that we wouldnt take the acres untill after they were done with their plans. Since we would gain less by ignoring their demand we agreed to it. As a result both sides got what they wanted out of diplo.
So, thats 1 misunderstanding gone.

Then the claim that it is unfair cause it effected other KD's.
Show me 1 CF deal in the top that doesnt effect other KD's.
Our CF's with pyro/rage/legacy effected you as you stated several times.
Your friendly relations (not even sure if you got a CF) with BB also effected other KD's.
Basicly any deal in the top between 2 KD's effects other KD's. So why would our deal with Simians be unfair when other CF deals are not?

Anri, I wont bother arguing with you.

Just know that there is no free lunch in the world, and that some kingdoms do not think giving x waves is worth it after they outplay a particular kingdom and hence is in a better spot. Thus, it is impossible to determine what is a good gauge of fair amount of acres to give. It depends on scenario to scenario. If it's too much acres, the kingdom that is waving may risk severe backlash in future.

Like someone from BB told me, you ask what you expect the other party to ask back if roles are reversed. You can be unreasonable now, but next time when roles are reversed, be sure to have unreasonable demands imposed on you.

Which boils down to one word.

Diplomacy.

-cJ

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Originally Posted by TheOne

Anri, I wont bother arguing with you.

Just know that there is no free lunch in the world, and that some kingdoms do not think giving x waves is worth it after they outplay a particular kingdom and hence is in a better spot. Thus, it is impossible to determine what is a good gauge of fair amount of acres to give. It depends on scenario to scenario. If it's too much acres, the kingdom that is waving may risk severe backlash in future.

Like someone from BB told me, you ask what you expect the other party to ask back if roles are reversed. You can be unreasonable now, but next time when roles are reversed, be sure to have unreasonable demands imposed on you.

Which boils down to one word.

Diplomacy.

-cJ

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You should not have to be forced to do diplomacy if you just want to give up acres. Anything above and beyond 20% worth of the other kds land is just BS.
No matter if you are #1 or #100. Diplomacy is not the option to solve everything. When the other kd goes, hey you are not in position to fight us, we will either have you war us til age end or you will all end up on 500a locked in relations to us. Its just not the way i want to play this game. Only you do. You really think you would be able to do diplomacy with me next age if this is the rules i know you want to play by?

Anri, the entire game at all levels boils down to diplomacy. We are all no more than the reputation and relationships we have built. You can work on it, which I think Pew has done a ton of work this age on not ****playing and trying to play fair despite any offenses we could have taken... You can justify your behavior however you want. Revenge begets revenge.

On topic: Dibs we all know is stupid, but then again isn't that basically what this notice system is? "I am notifying you that in XX days our CF is over and we are taking you on" that IS dibs! Come on guys use a little logic here. Thus does that become a hostile? For some it does, just like calling claim on a kd gives you right to cry about how they "ran" from you if they find a better or more evenly matched opponent. This is not just top play either, I have been a ghetto monarch, the same garbage happens in the ghetto level. Welcome to Utopia where people act like asshats because they are able. Lets all face it, the more we try to control the chaos and make up stupid rules, the more people get butthurt about others not following the "rules".

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Originally Posted by Anri

You should not have to be forced to do diplomacy if you just want to give up acres. Anything above and beyond 20% worth of the other kds land is just BS.
No matter if you are #1 or #100. Diplomacy is not the option to solve everything. When the other kd goes, hey you are not in position to fight us, we will either have you war us til age end or you will all end up on 500a locked in relations to us. Its just not the way i want to play this game. Only you do. You really think you would be able to do diplomacy with me next age if this is the rules i know you want to play by?

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If you refuse to do diplomacy then you're basically consenting to giving the opponent however many acres they feel like taking, whether it's 5 acres 20% or all of it. No sensible kingdom would leave a potentially dangerous/troublesome opponent without making sure to secure a cf deal that prevents you from bushwhacking them whenever you feel like it.

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Originally Posted by tetley

My understanding was he left just after age had already started which is why he still had access (but, I could be wrong on that)

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After he had given Pew another WW / WW win for Honor. Can't remember if he left when the war started or once he had awarded the honor win.

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

If you refuse to do diplomacy then you're basically consenting to giving the opponent however many acres they feel like taking, whether it's 5 acres 20% or all of it. No sensible kingdom would leave a potentially dangerous/troublesome opponent without making sure to secure a cf deal that prevents you from bushwhacking them whenever you feel like it.

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You missinterpute it. Ofc diplo should be made. But when the other kd insist of being bullies with crazy demands like unlimited waves then dip took out its right.

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Originally Posted by Elit

Taking acres for CF is ok, its how game work for hell long. What did this age havoc is weird. You cant ask kd for acres to let him war other kd. Its **** play.

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It is exactly what we agreed last age. We'd give you acres after we fought pyro. Pyro backed out of war with us, and so we gave you acres.

This age:
Simians agrees to war us or give us acres after they fight pyro. They fought pyro, they gave us acres.

I don't see a difference. In either case, the kd receiving acres is agreeing to delay when they take the acres until after a war is completed. We also aren't asking for acres to let them war another kingdom, we're asking them for acres because our CF has expired and we can take the acres. They're asking us to take the acres later because they want to do whatever with the acres first.

I'm not even sure who is ****played in this scenario? The kd who is giving us acres? No, they're not ****played, they got a CF and got to use the acres for longer. That's advantageous for them, not penalizing them. The kd they fought in the meantime? They weren't really ****played either, they had an opportunity to fight the kd who gives us acres...

Letting someone know your intent makes sense. If someone else waves them fine then your stuck waiting. But if they wave someone else... Meh! It is lame but the game has gotten lame. There is 3-4 competitive kingdoms per age. A couple are friends on each side. You end up with 2-3 people wanting to war 1 person.

Dibs is better then people waving into eow cf to show hostility etc. :P

Make a larger alliance so people cant bs you without being themselves screwed :P

Changes to game mechanics are more likely to resolve the issue of a hugely depleted number of competitors.

Delayed war start perhaps?
Switching out of fortified gains and penalties phasing in. AKA when you leave fortified you don't immediately get full gains.
Lots of things could change to make giving button a better alternative then dibs. Still sometimes there will be multiple kingdoms waiting for one kingdom to come oow.

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Originally Posted by Anri

You missinterpute it. Ofc diplo should be made. But when the other kd insist of being bullies with crazy demands like unlimited waves then dip took out its right.

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If they're doing it for gains then go fort andlet them run up the meter, eventually they'll get -75% gains, that should discourage them. If it's for a grudge then you're **** out of luck but then you probably did something to deserve it, at least in the eyes of your opponent.
But assuming you didn't give them 100 points meter and then suddenly expect them to kindly go away just because you don't want to play anymore... once you haven't fought back for 24-48 hours they're fair game for others in my opinion, assuming there's a cf offer on the table so they can reset relations.

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

If they're doing it for gains then go fort andlet them run up the meter, eventually they'll get -75% gains, that should discourage them. If it's for a grudge then you're **** out of luck but then you probably did something to deserve it, at least in the eyes of your opponent.
But assuming you didn't give them 100 points meter and then suddenly expect them to kindly go away just because you don't want to play anymore... once you haven't fought back for 24-48 hours they're fair game for others in my opinion, assuming there's a cf offer on the table so they can reset relations.

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umm wouldn't they then be hitting for 25% of your land without retaliations? Not to mention they would already have 30% of your land from maxing the meter?

Offering a free wave or 20k acres or what not for a cf is fine. But wasting a week of their time to get a different cf may make sense.

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Originally Posted by goodz

umm wouldn't they then be hitting for 25% of your land without retaliations? Not to mention they would already have 30% of your land from maxing the meter?
Offering a free wave or 20k acres or what not for a cf is fine. But wasting a week of their time to get a different cf may make sense.

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What I meant was that while it's certainly free hits but with -75% gains assuming that there are still targets it would be considerably slower than random whoring so it's probably not something you'd be doing to gain from it, once the top grows away from even the random explore whores I could see this happening since there would be no other source of acres but while there's still targets to be had it's damn slow to keep up, especially when you also have to take gb protection into account. Otherwise it's mostly limited to grudges and honor whores.

I doubt it'd be 30% of your land from maxing the meter but yes it's problematic, but that's really your only option, you can't really retalwar effectively these days because of how the silly meter is implemented so in the end your only option is to bend over and hope they stop before it comes out of your nose. If you retalwar you end up at the same place with none of the protection.

Simians couldn't really fight SWEA effectively when they finally tried to and AMA couldn't really fight you effectively when you tried to force round 2 after having 2v1'ed them(and back then the cap on the meter was higher than it is now), it just ends up as slowly bleeding out with no end in sight, once you end up limited to doing 12 hits/day or whatever the current maximum is while your opponent can do a minimum of 2 full waves each day you're basically screwed.

I dont think you can really put an amount of how many times you can wave a kingdom or how many acres you are allowed to ask for and its not something that can be or should be dictated by others.

After all this is a war game and as long as you fight someone 1v1 you should be able to engage the other kd for how ever long you wish if it is merited. As mentioned before its all part of diplomacy and positioning, for example i tried to explain it to people this age: dont vulture AMA after war unless you dont want it to happen to you going forward. Positions change every age, one day you are big and pumping all age and beating up on people and the next day the roles are reversed. You can definitely expect the kd you vulture, asked for 39% land for cf, etc. to do the same thing to you when roles are reversed. I dont personally consider it ****play, just being a dick (whether it is warranted or not is another set of circumstances.)

Personally if i am playing for a goal and hitting a kd can get me to achieve that goal, i am going to go out and try to get things done, I'm not going to "feel bad" after two waves and stop what I am doing. At the same time when cfing for free acres in the past, i have almost always taken 1-2 free waves or set acre amount. Beginning if the age when you wave so eone you usually settle up in waves and later in the age it tends to be in acres.

As for simians/pewpew its hard to have an opinion as i dont play in either kd and did not pay attention to what they did to eachother. If last age pewpew waved simians with intention of taking honour crown they should keep waving as it is tbeir goal but just be nice about it if they want to avoid bad blood "sorry we are playing for crown and cfing you does not let us get it so we cant stop hits unless you want to give us a deal where we can get your honor." Simians is also perfectly free to wave and vulture pewpew this age as well.

Cj i disagree with you about simians vs. pewpew in the sense where it was bad what simians did this age but not bad what pewpew did last age. Honestly both were 1v1 play without any dealbreak, if pewpew were assholes to simians last age (i am nit saying they are because i didnt see logs or pay attention) than simians can be assholes too. We were also vultured by pewpew and rbl this age cj and people told us not to "cry" about it or "run." Either vulturing is ok or it is not but it cant go both ways.

Personal stance on vulturing is its lame but happens all the time because people want to maximize their chance of winning or get the most land. The guy who takes it most seriously is flogger, i have seen him give people 1+ week extensions after eow cf in past ages before fighting them.

@Taking land for cf. I think thats fine. Personally i prefer to do it right away rather than defer it because it can have a ripple effect on other things.

oki , i didnt read the last pages , too lazy for that but it seems to me that this "how many times a kd can wave another kd " can be easily solved with forced CF. when the meter reaches a certain point , the side with lower or none hostile points can push cf.
now , some of you might say "ya but lets say if the 100 hostile point is the max cap , and the kd with like 99 points decided to force cf , afer hitting back alot of times , it can be abusable" ..well no ..there has to be a diffrence in points ..saying like 1 full wave is 50 hostile points assuming all 25 provs hit. so a kd cannot push cf til 50 hostile points or over is the diffrence between the 2 kds. or well , just set some other number , i was giving an example. but 1 full wave is too low , and 3 are too much :P so 2 i guess it's good
problem solved *flies away*