Lol emeriti never came to us for cf, I approached them and was turned down.
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Lol emeriti never came to us for cf, I approached them and was turned down.
Yes due to stupid precedents set by ppl like Binnie the Poo and jdorje.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meep
No need for such stipulation, it depends on how generous KD A feels. It's too easy to have a friend wave you to void notice for there to be a general clause that resets if you get waved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meep
YES! jdorje helped make that precedent together with goodz, seems like (awesome) karma that he should be forced to suffer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meep
Nope, go ask jdorje, he helped to make the precedent that fighting back until meter is maxed and then doing nothing for 12/24h makes the hostile protection NULL. Therefore the circumstances you mention don't exist, especially not for Emertiti, even though they'd be sensible precedents tell us that's not how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale
Nope, they're free to fight back for however long they can then just quit attacks(not neccessarily ops) for 12/24h and then the waving kd is FFA to wave, that's jdorjes precedent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale
This thread truly shows how retarded this game has come with the war win bonus completely ruining this game into the trash that we get to see in this thread.
Not just WW bonus, tho that shifted things even more. Top kd wars have been like this since raze was changed(before that war was pretty much an instant age loss to any kd who got dragged into war as I remember unless scales were VERY much in favor of one kd). before ww bonus tactical WD used to be a big thing but that had issues too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
The only thing that kept things moderately civilized was the Abs v aAbs terror balance, but that's long gone-
War win bonus is everyone's bonus. It's the diplo.Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
Word up, Elldallan ^
This situation has nothing to do with war wins or razes or anything like that. Both kd's have known we would be warring for 2 weeks. Both kd's had the ability to get cf's and prep. Indeed, both kd's did get most of the cf's and they were sci pumping/pooling for quite a long time. Based on the sims I did of Emeriti throughout those two weeks they could have prepped such that they would have a 10-15% deficit in military(basically the kd size difference) mostly made up by having more wpa. In order to do this they had to stop getting sci a MINIMUM of two days before they put in gs and went fort. They could have stopped 3 days prior and the trade for mpa would have still been favorable over the sci they generated.Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdigie
What happened was that they did not prep for a big -1 to -3ppa fight and did not get WT to help against war kd's stealing stock(probably because they had none!). When they realized that they were a minimum of two days behind in stock they rushed to figure out cf situations with someoen they had to cf earlier for stocking(and who offered a cf) and then realized they could maybe just dodge the war with us all together. Since Settlers doesn't/didn't want to war, this attempt made it even worse for them.
I'm fine with people saying that this shows a lack of strategic prowess at the top of the game, but this is not some issue stemming from ghetto creep or anything like that. This was an opportunity for a fun war based on preparation that both kd's had been making since preage(for example when we decided to have less provinces that would require pool). Unfortunately, one kd failed to properly prep and then instead of either making the best of the situation and pumping enough to war or make cf's(they had offers from settlers that still gave emeriti land, despite the fact that emeriti should have cf'd for free a week ago) they instead doubled down on making things messy.
edit: I would also add that really their best bet when they logged on 2-3 days late and realized they had poor prep would be to start prepping and pray that their one loose cf waved them, since that would be the only way to actually dodge us and then have 6 days to prep after the ww.
CR was in a strong position to bully us, not because of gc prep (ours was fine) but because they were 20% larger. Same as they have bullied every kingdom for acres all age, but of course since they see us as the competition they would want 18k acres instead of 5k.
However, this has nothing to do with what went down / is going down between us and Settlers. Snowballz dodged our cf talks for days until the point we were fully convinced we were hours from being waved. At this point we simply trained up and waved him.
CR had many ways to profit from this situation without resorting to dirty play. You could have told Settlers to CF us. You could have waited and vultured us after the fight, same as you have done with every other top-20 war this age. Either way would have put you in exactly the position you seem to want.
Instead you told Settlers to ignore us, knowing that we couldn't ignore them back and would be forced to train early. You told them to retal and soften us up after you noticed us into the hostile. And presumably you will tell them to hold hits so that you can double-team us later. You've bragged about how many top leaders you have, but the sloppiness of this double-team makes me question that.
Finally, for the last time, I had nothing to do with the the practice of double-teaming a kingdom by offering in-game ceasefire. Go do research before you completely change history. The time we waved BB this age was a few hours after they did a few hits on a kingdom we were already hitting...should we have kept hitting that kingdom and double-teamed them? The time we waved CP they agreed to war us, but calle didn't want that war so he suicided into ED to try to get a dodge war...after CP spent all day not-very-active in diplomacy, we waved them on the hour they had asked us to wave them and gave them a long ceasefire for a single ~4800 acre wave.
ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
How many pages can we drama about things that have nothing to do with The U vs. Settlers before Pam gets mad and makes us use a new thread.
Because people i like hold you in such high regard I had assumed this whole mess was you being inactive, but now it seems that it's just you being some combination of bad and delusional.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
There are a lot of accusations in that post. The crazy thing is you seem so sure about what you're saying. All this talk from you all saying I was ignoring CF talks or whatever simply isn't true. I never ignored you, I just wasn't telling you what you wanted to hear. Actually Jdorje I don't believe we've even spoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
I wasn't ready to accept a deal to give you land for a CF in the manner that you proposed it which was very brash. Sorry if I don't respond well to someone who I don't even know messaging me on IRC essentially saying "Give me acres."
We wanted to find a war with someone else so you all were not our priority. In retrospect sure, that's a mistake. But for you all to think that we were gearing up to wave you is pretty asinine. All you had to do was ask. But instead you spent your gc and "prepped" thinking that my little ghetto was going to wave you. So you waved us. This after it was clear we had a war agreement with 3:10. That's fine, you have your right to wave.
Anyway, all these rules are pretty lame IMO. But I understand you all up at the top have your way of doing things. I have my own way of doing things as well in certain situations. In the end though the decisions that have been made by Settlers have been decisions thought out by the leadership team to the best of our knowledge. I mean I like CR because everyone I've dealt with there have been cordial but they are not pulling our strings.
And hell, this turned into a pretty fun experience. After all that is the point of this, right?
#BB4crow
You're right, your inability to draft deep doesn't give us an advantage at all. (hint: you're wrong). Sure, being bigger didn't hurt either. Nor did our superior pool use, which goes back to both our prep and gc advantage. You were focused on buying science, we were focused on preparing for war. We haven't actually bullied anyone for acres all age, unlike you. But yes, actual competition we would want more land from in order to CF, as is only reasonable. We're not like you, who prefer to focus on farming ghettos.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdorje
To verify: You're saying that offering you a CF was dodging your CF talks? Or that your refusal to CF him for less than acres was him dodging your CF talks?Quote:
However, this has nothing to do with what went down / is going down between us and Settlers. Snowballz dodged our cf talks for days
So you initiated conflict with a ghetto to dodge us at this point.Quote:
until the point we were fully convinced we were hours from being waved. At this point we simply trained up and waved him.
As we are not Settlers, and nor are we allied with Settlers, how would we have known about your CF situation? We didn't know you didn't have a CF until after you went fort, at which point we told sn0wballz that you were clearly planning to dodge us by waving him.Quote:
CR had many ways to profit from this situation without resorting to dirty play. You could have told Settlers to CF us.
Had they asked us, we certainly would have told them to CF you. However, they were already offering you a CF. So unclear what you are looking for here. Free acres? Why exactly did you think the situation merited free land? Because you could have trained up to attempt to dodge us and wave them? Well, unfortunately, that didn't work out for you did it?
We haven't vultured anyone, and you don't even believe vulturing exists. Interesting contradiction. (We also haven't hit or diploed for acres with anyone after the vast majority of t20 wars -- for example: yours, EDs, BBs, pyro-pandas, pandas-apoc, cJ (who you guys vultured?), etc)Quote:
You could have waited and vultured us after the fight, same as you have done with every other top-20 war this age. Either way would have put you in exactly the position you seem to want.
We told them? You ignored their CF offer. You chose to train. Still don't understand why you did that, except, oh yeah -- you wanted to farm a ghetto.Quote:
Instead you told Settlers to ignore us, knowing that we couldn't ignore them back and would be forced to train early.
I haven't bragged about having top leaders. We didn't tell them to retal you, and you weren't hostile when we gave notice. Yes, they will hold hits so that we can wave you after your hostile ends. It's your play, you invented it. You shouldn't find it dirty.Quote:
You told them to retal and soften us up after you noticed us into the hostile. And presumably you will tell them to hold hits so that you can double-team us later. You've bragged about how many top leaders you have, but the sloppiness of this double-team makes me question that.
AMA-Sanc-Havoc? You weren't involved there?Quote:
Finally, for the last time, I had nothing to do with the the practice of double-teaming a kingdom by offering in-game ceasefire. Go do research before you completely change history.
I'm somewhat skeptical that CP asked you wave into hostile, but those are details I didn't know.Quote:
The time we waved BB this age was a few hours after they did a few hits on a kingdom we were already hitting...should we have kept hitting that kingdom and double-teamed them? The time we waved CP they agreed to war us, but calle didn't want that war so he suicided into ED to try to get a dodge war...after CP spent all day not-very-active in diplomacy, we waved them on the hour they had asked us to wave them and gave them a long ceasefire for a single ~4800 acre wave.
p.s. some choice posts by jdorje:
(note: Settlers had asked for a CF).Quote:
Mom didn't ask us for a ceasefire. They were sitting with 300m gc on 0 thieves. Just days ago, they targetshared havoc to the server for sitting on 0 thieves on cows, resulting in dozens of kingdoms robbing havoc. So, it was a complete no-brainer for us to rob that guy.
Waving us to dodge havoc is probably not going to work out in the long term, but should be fun for both kingdoms in the meantime.
** The kingdom of Sanc **
Total land exchanged: +3,313 (13/17)
Hey Dorje, how did you arrange it so that Havoc could get in and sanc out?
Again: Settlers had offered a CF. Emeriti waves Settlers to avoid CR's notice.Quote:
The real question is why did Mom not make any attempt to ceasefire Sanc, when they knew an incoming notice from Havoc was on the table? Here I was sitting all postwar waiting for such a request, and when it didn't come I assumed mom intended to dodge havoc by waving us. But now the only thing I can come up with is that mom intended to stand by the ludicrous/debunked "havoc can't notice us until we ceasefire Sanc" argument.
ASF's advice for Emeriti:
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Elit, When you're noticed by Havoc and when you're preparing for and fighting Havoc, why won't you just cf Sanc? You claim you played better but if you really were so good, you'd have just fought Havoc 1v1 instead of trying to use Sanc to dodge them and now mass opping another kingdom out of your ongoing hostile.
Smart play means avoiding putting yourself in situations to be doubled. You on the other hand intentionally put your kingdom in situations to be doubled because you would rather whine about a double than risk losing a 1v1 fight.
(I wonder why you guys keep claiming Settlers was dodging CF talks when they told you all along they were happy to CF?)Quote:
AMA had two opportunities to fight Havoc 1v1 with a clear win in either case likely putting them in secure position to win the age. Instead both times Elitbg chooses to try and bring in Sanc instead of cfing them. You might have a case for blaming Sanc if it wasn't for the fact that Sanc keeps trying to cf Elitbg to let Havoc and him fight 1v1, but Elitbg keeps refusing to cf them.
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Yes, it's unfortunate you didn't just cf sanc instead of try and use them as a reason to deny Havoc's notice. If Sanc was cf'd, like any kingdom in your position who wasn't trying to dodge Havoc would have done, then there wouldn't have been any issues. I agree that Sanc should not have robbed you even though they felt it was obvious you were preparing to wave them to dodge Havoc.
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This is what I keep asking him. Why oh why didn't he just cf Sanc and fight havoc 1v1 when he knew havoc was going to notice him. The answer seems to be that the pressure got to him and he didn't have your guidance to lead him to the crown. I'm sure he was under a lot of stress. What if havoc beat him 1v1? I guess in his mind, he thought the road to the crown was to not cf Sanc during post war and use that as an excuse to try and deny Havoc's right to notice him so he could use his pool and get out of range of havoc having any chance against them.
But you're right, the keys and the road to the crown was right in front of him. All he needed to do was cf Sanc and beat Havoc in a war and the crown was his. But people crack under pressure and make dumb decisions all the time. If only he had your hand on the wheel.
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One other thing to add. While I agree Sanc robbing some gold from Elit was dumb, I think that was mainly a convienient way for Elit to justify dodging havoc but I think his actions would have been exactly the same even if Sanc didn't rob anything. That was the whole reason he never cf'd sanc when he knew havoc was noticing him. Also, if say Rage were to get notice from someone and then got robbed some (perhaps by TFC or SPGC or whoever else), and say Rage didn't want to fight the kingdom who noticed them, would you also accept that it was perfectly justified for Rage to instead wave TFC or whoever to dodge the notice? We've been noticed a lot and almost every single notice we've gotten robbed by someone. Should it really be that easy to always have a valid way to dodge the notice?
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I'm not trying to say this was one sided and Abs was completely in the right and Elit completely in the wrong. I'm just saying that things would have been much less complicated if Elit just cf'd sanc in post war when Havoc warned him they would notice once he was out of post war. Instead he mistakenly thought that not cfing them would prevent Havoc from giving a valid notice and that led to problems for all.
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As we all know, there is an unwritten code of honor in the game that has been established, in part at Absalom's promotion of it, to let kingdoms fight fair 1v1 fights. There is nothing about this in the rules and the game initially actually didn't even have any protections or mechanisms to even discourage "non 1v1 play" but these were put in with time mainly at the request of players.
It has never been my belief that "honorable play" was intended to allow kingdoms to dodge such 1v1 fights yet over time this has frequently been exactly the case. Early ages you'd have to be an idiot to wave some other kingdom when you knew another was about to wave you. You would only expose yourself to the one about to wave and receive no protections at all.
After it became widely accepted to let kingdoms fight 1v1, many kingdoms realized "Hey, that kingdom over there that might beat us says they are about to wave us. Let's quick wave some other kingdom and tell them that they are dishonorable if they wave us like they said they were about to."
This was then extended into, "Let's also say we'll never cf the smaller kingdom we waved so that no one can ever wave us without being called dishonorable! We can even explore and pump while having imaginary protection form anyone touching us that we didn't choose ourselves to wave!"
If this mentality is never broken, kingdoms can be impossible for anyone to ever wave all age. A kingdom could keep a semi active ghetto hostile up all age, or simply get notice deals in place and then just initiate said hostile whenever notice is recieved and refuse to ever end it unless they get new notice deals. You can also go straight from one hostile to another, always choosing who you wave and ensuring they are an easy match. No kingdom can ever initiate with you.
1v1 play was never intended to be a means to dodge fair fights and without kingdoms sometimes following through and waving as they said they would, then kingdoms will continue to keep waving someone else whenever they get notice by a kingdom they didn't want to fight. Certainly a line has to be drawn somewhere on this behavior even if you might not agree that this was an appropriate place to draw the line. Havoc felt it was and in this case that is where the decision rested.
tl;dr? You're wrong, jdorje.Quote:
Why not describe the wrongs using specific descriptions rather than catch phases? Clearly you want the word hostile, which it was, but I'll instead paste another ingame message that is descriptive of their relation at the time:
April 2 of YR8 Sanctuary of Absalom () has proposed a formal ceasefire with our kingdom.