I was demanding to war on equal terms. But they are too cowardly to war me on equal terms!
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I was demanding to war on equal terms. But they are too cowardly to war me on equal terms!
I never said anything against Pew2, from looking at charts and what was available in forums seemed like they were doing a good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
My beef is that AFTER they failed to keep their acres you start going on a forum rampage against the very idea of collecting acres in the first place. So when things were looking good it was no problem but when the attempt failed then whoring is evil and killing the game. Ah well, you probably never said that either.
The whole idea of giving away an advantage in order to get a war is just not compatible with going for land crown as war isn't a goal in itself, just a means to get acres and knock out a competitor. What's wrong with playing for a clearly defined goal and doing your best to achieve it?
Maximouse just did the same thing saying AMA didn't want to war them.. I'm pretty sure AMA would have warred them but they didn't want to give anything away for free. Which is hardly surprising considering their history.
No one can war you on equal terms and you know it. You're just too goodz.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
Eh, didnt you come to us after we trained up asking for a cf?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Once again you misconstrue. I was going off about BB could not just war when they had 5 out of 6 advantages, instead they had to abuse the bounce mechanic before they could even give relations and then abuse it again and STILL not give button. It was and is a scummy and cowardly way to play the game. Pew was whoring, got cornered into a war because Tox did not want to be a bad guy and BB could not accept that and had to push it even further. Its just scummy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyB
Then the champions of BB's conduct stated that the goal was not to war, but to seek to maximize acres and I misunderstood the goal of BB. Fine I accept that BB only seeks to gain acres. Then they turn around and say "oh no, we want fun wars" Well thats bull. BB does not want wars, they want structured acres collections. Again, that is fine, just stop pretending that you want to have fun wars and encouraging people that want to enjoy the game to grow up into range of you when all you are going to do is power play them into a structured acres collection. Play your top utopia crap with the other two kingdoms that want to do that garbage and let everyone else enjoy the game free from your garbage. Stop preaching that everyone should grow or seek to gain acres, stop preaching that you welcome competition at the top, etc. etc. etc.
It was not "giving away an advantage" it was "not pressing for further advantages."Quote:
The whole idea of giving away an advantage in order to get a war is just not compatible with going for land crown as war isn't a goal in itself, just a means to get acres and knock out a competitor. What's wrong with playing for a clearly defined goal and doing your best to achieve it?
I can't speak to that.Quote:
Maximouse just did the same thing saying AMA didn't want to war them.. I'm pretty sure AMA would have warred them but they didn't want to give anything away for free. Which is hardly surprising considering their history.
I didn't say they were largely interested in warring, obviously their main focus is elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by topsy's revenge
Just saying that a war at this time would probably benefit them(and thus something they'd be interested in having but probably only beyond a certain point in the age) but nobody in their right mind would war them now.
They asked us to make an offer for a fair war, we did (it didn't require them to stop growing or drop), and they declined because they decided they'd rather wave us oow instead. So we gave acres.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elldallan
/shrug
The reality is that not warring is beneficial up until the point where you need to war to shift acres around, because you can always wave the kds as they come out of wars. Being able to use your pool and prep for longer is a substantial advantage.
Didnt Elit tell you we contacted him right around the time koala's surrendered and asked if AMA was interrested in giving us time to atleast train up and in return for that favour we would war them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnirpsneR
That would have been a war against CR with cow, stock, military, science and wpa advantage for AMA. You guys declined for understandable reasons (war wouldnt help with your goal as waving us right out of eowcf would), but dont go claim CR would be scared to war either AMA or BB while at serious disadvantages.
With both BB and AMA, CR was certainly willing to war with disadvantages. The only thing we didnt want to do was get into a farmwar cause we didnt even have enough time to train up decently.
taking acres for cf over warring is less risk but at this stage/situation far less reward. If ama had warred us where we were 100k and they were 130k or so and they had the extra days of prep as they would have then i think it would have been pretty easy to get more than 18k acres if they won the war. 12k from ww even if due to core sizes they don't gain any acres in the war. Then they would have probably had 5-6 provs chained and each would have likely had 1.5k acres to whore minimum so that's another 7.5k. Furthermore lots of the shuffled acres would ahve gone to those 15k provs that could have free farmed. Warring would have hardly been a poor plan for them assuming they had faith in their ability as a kd/setup.
Careful maximouse, they might just start saying you are ranting and complaining.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Yes, you did come to us asking to war us a week or so later. And we didn't give you that time. Still didn't mean we didnt want a war when we waved. You then approached us a bit before we wanted to wave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Like I said, you surely wanted a farmwar. You didnt want a war with us when you had to give us time to train up though which is understandable ofcourse. We were willing to war. We were not willing to farm out which is exactly what would have happened if we had warred you right out of our eowcf. And we all know that.
So just like BB, AMA was only interrested in a complete farmwar. A war in which you had cow, science, wpa, gcstock and total military advantage but with us trained up in full warbuilds wasnt something you wanted.
what's all this blabling about? AMA &BB are cool!
One time snirpsner said he was going to nap break me and kill my province for hitting DN in their war. Turned out he didn't have the balls. Just sayin'
Or perhaps matty didn't let him- either way goodz 1 snirpsner 0
good times:P Tho i doubt matty had anything to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
Nothing wrong with it imo. Don't think you would give us time if situation was reversed :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
they didn't say anything was wrong with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnirpsneR
They said you had no interest in warring them with some prep time. You said they have no interest in warring you right oow from much smaller size unpumped. Can't you both agree that you wouldn't want to war from a situation where the only possible outcome is being farmed?
this is a silly argument.
Anyway back on topic. Beastblood wins age. Proteus curse prevents ama from having a chance. Game is not ruined by the outcome.
Yes that was sort of the point I was trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauper
From what I've gathered from the forum thread they didn't want to let you prepare for war, I'm sure they wouldn't have minded waving you until you pressed the button or maxed the meter. It's funny how revenge and grudges works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
It's after all the exact same way as you treated them last age except that you told them that you'd 2v1 them and all that other crap. From that tediously long thread last age you were completely unwilling to offer them any deal that would let them war Pyro and prepare for you until after that "random" Remote stuff completely ruined any chance they had of prepping and warring Pyro(and then they dealbroke you which was anything but fair. But it seems that they thought that The Remote was one of your ex players, sent by you which sorta makes that reaction understandable).
So I figure that they're not gonna play nice with you again.
Old oop basically meant that whoever was online for more ticks wound up with a better province, everyone with a shred of competence would explore 200-300 acres minimum (save a few exceptions), armies were almost always pure elite, and the early game was predictable. Kingdoms that could put up cows could do so essentially unopposed, so there was from the start a seperation between growth kingdoms and warring kingdoms. Now kingdoms have a lot more choices, because kingdoms have to establish their growth plans post-protection rather than pre-oop, and now there is actually a choice as to what to build and train pre-oop. Before, the only viable buildings were banks arms guilds, and the only viable oop acreage was long ago determined with slight adjustments due to race changes and rare mechanics changes. It's also not reliant on being particularly active in protection, so the game is actually played against people instead of through a simulation; sure activity wasn't always a great advantage, but it was an edge nonetheless and the strategy for oop was so dull.Quote:
Originally Posted by protector
The point I was trying to make is that avoiding growth early is fairly silly, because sooner or later kingdoms will have to grow if they are proactive in waving in warring, and early hostiles will likely involve trads rather than massacre. The point is not to try and compete with the kingdoms at the very top of the chart (unless you want to), but to aim for moderate growth instead of no growth. The silly thing is that my ghetto was trying hard not to grow their provinces too big, and had other kingdoms been rational actors the ghetto would be in 20s-30s rank instead of 9th nw or so. Even with the things my old ghetto botched, the advantage from setting up earlier rather than later was so useful.Quote:
I agree, it is my own choice not to compete against the top kingdoms. I was responding to noobium who was stating that he thought it was silly to want to not compete. However, increasingly kingdoms are making that precise choice.
I got bored at work and decided to build my ghetto into a real kingdom and ally with AMA, BB and the pyro kids.... talk about REALLY ruining the game.
I here by coin this new alliance as BFAP, I would also accept FAPB either way has FAP in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by flogger
Just to correct you, i wanted to give you time and war. This kinda guaranteed us age win. Problem is last age you didn't gave us time when we asked you 2 weeks before our CF expire and you go total lame mod. So its dont make sense after all ****s you did last age if we give you time this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Next time wen you are in better position you can offer us 2 weeks for prepare and war you. We wont land drop after it how did fake RBL (advice from you).
Best way to make a game good is for it to have a thriving and welcoming community.
Everyone be nicer!
It's way too late for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetley
This game is like mirror on real life. Do you see nice ppl all around you? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tetley
Elit, either you wanted to war us or you didnt. We offered to war you, you declined. Dont tell me you declined because you wanted to war us. You declined because you wanted something else. Which we all understand. Just dont bs about it
The mistake they make is not arranging for land drops to a kingdom that wishes to engage in structured acres collections. If you can do that, then you can war all you want to, take the eowcf period to pump on those acres, then send your armies out and let the structured acres collection agreement drop you back down again. Everyone is happy. The structured acres collection kingdom gets their acres, which is all they want, you get to stay small and war, and everyone is happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobium
I'll make it clearer - if 800 acres is a relatively big province two weeks into the age, a lot of people have to be playing silly. By that point most of the big growth kingdoms have already broken range, and there was no shortage of war range targets - just a shortage of skill to actually win those wars, and that would be the same no matter what acre size we were at.
The only problem with finding wars is that kingdoms are too busy trying to be smaller than everyone else in order to bait war, or because they're afraid of growth kingdoms, and if every kingdom chooses to do that, than wars are automatically decided by pure activity and the strategy to use is (or should be) obvious. the only kingdoms that benefit from this are the small elite warring kingdoms who auto-win those conflicts 100% of the time, so obviously they're all for pushing people into doing that and bullying anyone who would prefer that people play with something resembling competence. It's those kingdoms more than the top growth kingdoms that ruin the game, because most ghettos wind up having few if any interactions with the top, and top is more interested in whoring to win than in protracted struggles with random ghettos. The warring tier, or at least some of the established kingdoms in it, are far worse and usually the wall a ghetto runs into before they ragequit.
Well, I won't pretend to speak for others that will seek to be smaller or their motivations noobium but I can say that being in the top 10, it is freaking difficult to get a war because it has to be a negotiation. It used to be the same in the 10-20 and long ago in the 20-50. That should pretty much tell you a lot about who is left. Growing into the top 10 makes you the only food choice of the three kingdoms that seek to compete for a crown after week 4, growing into the top 20 you are food for at least the first 4 weeks. About the only way not to have to deal with the top at all is to stay out of the top 50-75. Now, that is not having a random thrown into you or anything (this is after week 4 or so and assumes you have no idiots that outgrew the rest of your kingdom by a large margin (typically faeries with no offense as that is the preferred food of larger kingdoms).
Perhaps the more stable tactic is just to make arrangements to give the top any surplus acres you have after each of your eowcf's. It keeps you in the place where you can find wars and gets rid of your excess ares on a schedule you can work with more easily. That is, waiting for randoms into your KD is a long slow process. That is because, absent communications, the top are all gutless when it comes to giving ops (its not really fear, to be fair, they just don't want any ops that would distract them from growth, remember the goal is structured acres acquisitions). So you will not get more than 2-6 hits in a 24 hr period unless you make arrangements to have it done more efficiently. So, to me, the best way to manage all of this is to not grow oop, find some wars, then from there just have trims done on you by people who, for whatever dumb reason, want to deal with all the drama and garbage of the top 3. More power to them and may they come to find some enjoyment from dealing with all of those personalities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
If you wanted to war us all you had to do was wait for the button we were going to deliver to you when you got out of war. Instead you came and offered 20% of your acres in exchange for a CF.
You wanted free prep time.
No more free CFs for Havoc.
JS, thank you for proving my point again. My point beeing AMA just like BB was interrested in a complete farmwar.A war in which they had cow, science, wpa, gc stock and total military advantage BUT with us atleast trained up wasnt interresting to you.
Nothing wrong with that. Everybody can understand why you made the choice. Just dont go claim you wanted a war. You wanted a farm and nothing else.
And also dont compare this to last age please. AMA had way smaller disadvantages and way more prep time and didnt want to war us still. We only asked for time to train up and in return would war you.
They didn't want a farm, they wanted retribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Farmwar, retribution, free acres. Call it what you like. They werent interrested in a war with huge advantages though. Way bigger advantages then CR ever had over AMA last age.
When someone's mad and they want payback, it isn't meant to be fair
Nor is it ever intended to be fair even when there is not payback meeni. It is structured acres collections. I don't quite understand maximouse's problems with it given his preference for structured acres collections as well but it is what it is I guess.
I am not sure why this thread is still alive. All it does is consistently rehash that BB/AMA and similar kingdoms (of which there are perhaps two) prefer to use diplomatics to engage in structured acres collections and others just want to war and have straight fun (as opposed to what has been argued is diplomatic based fun I suppose). Just let the thread die people. The resolution is simple, let those three kingdoms do their structured acres collections on each other and everyone else just ignore them (ingame). Think of them like the occasional natural disaster or random even that occurs. They won't ever give you ops so its really just one or two hits now and then so there is no reason to ever be concerned with them unless you intend to delve into their world of scummy treatment, which its easy to avoid by simply never growing.
I'm still sad we didn't get to see the b2b AMA vs Pyro; AMA vs CR last age. I would have gladly paid Kuhan $100 to see it without the remote razes.
BB hitting havoc had nothing to do with BB wanting free land, we thought we could force a war. Once it was clear they'd rather raze themselves to 15k and were already down to like out of the top 10 we stopped.
Forcing an unwinnable war vs getting free land = same thingQuote:
Originally Posted by flogger
You are missing a very obvious point: There is no free cfs for you this age, why would we give you an obvious favor? The only way you will get a cf from us is when you pay for it with your acres. Last age all we had was EOW cf to prepare for fights against RPP and no one else seemed to mind it, why should you be given special treatment. If you can't defend your acres in the T5 well that too effin bad, don't grow. If you want to get free cfs from people you first need to give a bunch of stuff out for free before you can cash in on it. Every time elit did you guys a favor in the past and gave up something for free you ****played him, no more cfs for you bad baby, get used to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
Proteus, Meeni, Sheister, you 3 all need to read. I dont have a problem with the course of action either BB or AMA took. I am only saying that neither KD wanted a war with CR. And I even said that they both had logical reasons for not wanting a real war.
And in AMA's case is would have been a war with a lot more advantages then CR ever had against AMA last age when AMA ran away through dealbreak.
And Proteus, I said it before but will say it again. Its really easy to "give away" things when it benefits you, or at the very least doesnt harm you. I love to see Elit giving anything away when its very possible it will cost him the crown. How about you use that "argument" again, when he actualy sacrafices something important with his "gifts"