Congratulations to the age 72 winners!

Is Goodwitch vs Panthira the Utopia equivalent of a "chick fight?"

Should I be buying popcorn and beer?

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Is Goodwitch vs Panthira the Utopia equivalent of a "chick fight?"

Should I be buying popcorn and beer?

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F off, sheister! :p

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Originally Posted by Panthira

F off, sheister! :p

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lol! I meant it with affection!

Plus I think you could clean up the mud pit with her.... just sayin....

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

not if it is disallowed and not without parental consent. Your word isn't legal consent, nor is a chat with a game dev. The cost and work they are referring to is keeping track of parental consent forms and such.

And as for blame, I did not force you to give out your child's age in the forum. I did not force you to abuse his age for a pity party. Also didn't force you to ignore my previous posts warnings. You should have just done the usual and claimed you had to do homework or something. You and Korp forced this.

And if you want to know, I put this much nicer than others do behind your back.

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Are you bragging about a gossip circle being meaner than you? Get a life!

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Originally Posted by Bananamancer2000

Are you bragging about a gossip circle being meaner than you? Get a life!

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/me hands Bananamancer2000 popcorn,

SHHHH! Don't distract them. It might get good!

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Originally Posted by Sheister

lol! I meant it with affection!

Plus I think you could clean up the mud pit with her.... just sayin....

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Dude, I totally could. I was raised in the LBC, yo! Plus maybe a white t-shirt and no bra might be fun for a show, eh? ;)
(No kids allowed)

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Originally Posted by Panthira

Dude, I totally could. I was raised in the LBC, yo! Plus maybe a white t-shirt and no bra might be fun for a show, eh? ;)
(No kids allowed)

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HAHA!

Wait Wait! Jello with everclear in it! Just for the added fun!

This isn't about Panthira. It's about principle.

If the game is not based on rules that apply equally to all then something is broken and it needs to be fixed. Otherwise it is not worth playing.


also:
People should really read the rules of games they are playing. At least fly over them on occasion or at the latest when an update is announced.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

not if it is disallowed and not without parental consent. Your word isn't legal consent, nor is a chat with a game dev.

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I'm willing to bet that it would hold up in court if they kept a copy.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what this argument is even about. Are planning on filing a complaint to get MUGA sued for COPPA infringements? Are you trying to argue that a mother giving her son permission to play is creating an unfair playing environment?

Leave it to utopia to go loopy for not letting cheaters prosper lol

Edit for ninja post:
What rules aren't being applied to everyone? Are you being denied permission for your son to play?

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

This isn't about Panthira. It's about principle.

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The principle that Parents are not empowered to make decisions about the rearing of their children?

Please quit while you are behind.

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Originally Posted by Palem

I'm willing to bet that it would hold up in court if they kept a copy.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what this argument is even about. Are planning on filing a complaint to get MUGA sued for COPPA infringements? Are you trying to argue that a mother giving her son permission to play is creating an unfair playing environment?

Leave it to utopia to go loopy for not letting cheaters prosper lol

Edit for ninja post:
What rules aren't being applied to everyone? Are you being denied permission for your son to play?

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Quote:

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This Site is offered and made available only to users thirteen (13) years of age or older. If you are not yet 13 years of age, please discontinue using the Site immediately. If you are found to be underage, your account may be terminated without notice.

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The rules don't give any room for parental consent. Her son isn't allowed to play whether she allows it or not, according to the rules. According to what was posted by Panthira, it is within the rights of websites to bar entry without leaving room for parental consent, as well, so the rules aren't in contradiction to the law discussed. Here is a link to the rules: http://wiki.utopia-game.com/index.ph...s#Terms_of_Use

EDIT: Forgot to finish my post!

So according to the rules, Panthira's son is in violation of the Terms of Use (which means he's cheating), and apparently Panthira received special permission for this (favoritism?), and as there has been no amendment since she got 'permission' for her son to play, and there are no forum posts or entries in the wiki about how to circumvent this clause in the Terms of Use, obviously the rules do apply to everybody but Panthira and her son. Which means they're not being applied equally to everybody.

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Originally Posted by Korp

But thats warring kd uses as argument as well, they dont want to get out of their comfort zone so they talk bunch of **** instead.If warring kds think whoring kds are just bunch of glorified explorers its easy to prove them wrong just grow and crush them but that rarely happens. Especially by the most vocal warring tier people.

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And this is the logic the whoring tier uses to prop themselves up and justify all the shenanigans that have happened recently.

Again, its for the warring tier to grow instead of the whoring tier to drop.

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Originally Posted by Palem

I'm willing to bet that it would hold up in court if they kept a copy.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what this argument is even about. Are planning on filing a complaint to get MUGA sued for COPPA infringements? Are you trying to argue that a mother giving her son permission to play is creating an unfair playing environment?

Leave it to utopia to go loopy for not letting cheaters prosper lol

Edit for ninja post:
What rules aren't being applied to everyone? Are you being denied permission for your son to play?

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IF rule breaking results in removal from rankings as per Jeff, then it should apply to all people/kingdoms that broke the rules.

This has nothing to do with me personally at all. Somehow it seems hard to understand someone could stand up for something even if it doesn't benefit them directly.
The only reason the underage rule came up was because it was the most obvious and easy to show rule infraction and she wouldn't stop. I tried not to use her example. There are others that cheat quite obviously in various ways.
Of course I am not going to take anyone to court, but maybe this prevents somebody else seeking legal action at some time in the future. It is possible that rules have been made less restrictive recently concerning underage children and that a chat conversation would hold up in court, but I wouldn't take my chances.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

The rules don't give any room for parental consent. Her son isn't allowed to play whether she allows it or not, according to the rules. According to what was posted by Panthira, it is within the rights of websites to bar entry without leaving room for parental consent, as well, so the rules aren't in contradiction to the law discussed. Here is a link to the rules: http://wiki.utopia-game.com/index.ph...s#Terms_of_Use

EDIT: Forgot to finish my post!

So according to the rules, Panthira's son is in violation of the Terms of Use (which means he's cheating), and apparently Panthira received special permission for this (favoritism?), and as there has been no amendment since she got 'permission' for her son to play, and there are no forum posts or entries in the wiki about how to circumvent this clause in the Terms of Use, obviously the rules do apply to everybody but Panthira and her son. Which means they're not being applied equally to everybody.

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You know, there are so few bright line rules in life. Consider all the small compromises we make every day. Do you want a speeding ticket every time you go 31 when the road grading changes in a stretch of road with a 30 MPH speed limit?

One of my favorites is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPgia7-QRg

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Originally Posted by stealth4785

And this is the logic the whoring tier uses to prop themselves up and justify all the shenanigans that have happened recently.

Again, its for the warring tier to grow instead of the whoring tier to drop.

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The game is about growing. You're supposed to grow. Why should the top handicap themselves to fight for kds that can't grow?

At least in the 30s there was an excuse to stay small, there were lots of kds of equal skill at those sizes. Some even could beat top kds and did. So top kds would take ages to war and honor crown.

Now there are no 'war' kds that can beat top kds (least not without funding) and there are all of like, 4 decent ones? Why would top kds slow down to, Essentially, pick at leftovers

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Originally Posted by Sheister

You know, there are so few bright line rules in life. Consider all the small compromises we make every day. Do you want a speeding ticket every time you go 31 when the road grading changes in a stretch of road with a 30 MPH speed limit?

One of my favorites is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPgia7-QRg

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So at what point is the line drawn? Because judging by the wars we've seen the age, only 1 was actioned and at least 3 others qualified for the same treatment to some degree.

Now it's okay to violate terms of use just because why not?

But when the admins decide to implement new rules at eoa to reward their friends with crowns and **** on players that put in the time to outplay everyone, it's ok?

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Originally Posted by Sheister

/me hands Bananamancer2000 popcorn,

SHHHH! Don't distract them. It might get good!

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They're circling alright, who makes the first jump?

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Originally Posted by Pillz

So at what point is the line drawn? Because judging by the wars we've seen the age, only 1 was actioned and at least 3 others qualified for the same treatment to some degree.

Now it's okay to violate terms of use just because why not?

But when the admins decide to implement new rules at eoa to reward their friends with crowns and **** on players that put in the time to outplay everyone, it's ok?

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There is no line, there is a region in which the judge or other responsible party makes a decision. The world is grey.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

There is no line, there is a region in which the judge or other responsible party makes a decision. The world is grey.

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So the rules are enforced arbitrarily and punishments are decided on a whim.

That shouldn't be how the game is run.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

So the rules are enforced arbitrarily and punishments are decided on a whim.

That shouldn't be how the game is run.

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No they are not arbitrary. There is a difference between arbitrary and a lack of bright line rules. The law is rife with factors to be considered and how those factors meliorate for one outcome or the other. There are few rules in law that are bright line. There are few rules in sport that are bright line.

Consider in soccer that the decision on whether to allow play to continue in the presence of a foul is at the sole discretion of the official's split second evaluation of the advantage to the parties. Consider when a level of stick contact becomes slashing in hockey. Not every contact with a stick is slashing. The list goes on and on across sports, law, and almost every other element of society. There are judgment calls made every day. When a Cop is sitting on the side of the road and lights you up with his radar gun and does not instantly chase you for a ticket, they have made a judgment call, the letter of the law notwithstanding.

Grow up and accept reality.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

No they are not arbitrary. There is a difference between arbitrary and a lack of bright line rules. The law is rife with factors to be considered and how those factors meliorate for one outcome or the other. There are few rules in law that are bright line. There are few rules in sport that are bright line.

Consider in soccer that the decision on whether to allow play to continue in the presence of a foul is at the sole discretion of the official's split second evaluation of the advantage to the parties. Consider when a level of stick contact becomes slashing in hockey. Not every contact with a stick is slashing. The list goes on and on across sports, law, and almost every other element of society. There are judgment calls made every day. When a Cop is sitting on the side of the road and lights you up with his radar gun and does not instantly chase you for a ticket, they have made a judgment call, the letter of the law notwithstanding.

Grow up and accept reality.

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I think you should probably step back and consider the implications of this thread and the admins recent actions.

Because my post was spot on and you're drying to make arguments out of smoke. Either the rules are enforced or not. Either punishments are universal or they're not.

I, for one, have always advocated that Utopia should be a free for all. If we're going to have rules I believe they should be well defined and consistently enforced.

Starting with removing Panthiras kd from ranking for age 72

Who are these ghettoes?

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Originally Posted by Pillz

I think you should probably step back and consider the implications of this thread and the admins recent actions.

Because my post was spot on and you're drying to make arguments out of smoke. Either the rules are enforced or not. Either punishments are universal or they're not.

I, for one, have always advocated that Utopia should be a free for all. If we're going to have rules I believe they should be well defined and consistently enforced.

Starting with removing Panthiras kd from ranking for age 72

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I think you should sit down and accept that there are these two people who, for better or worse, are the judges/referees/officials of this game and are empowered with broad discretion as to the fair treatment for actions in the game. They have made decisions. If this offends your sense of justice, then quit. Personally, I have given up on the concept of competitive utopia.

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Personally, I have given up on the concept of competitive utopia.

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You better have, after you were gifted first place by the owners who are friends and former players of your kd/leaders.

As for the rest of your post, yes, obviously the options are to quit or live with the fact that Utopia is now run according to which vendettas the owners can settle, or which friends they can give preferential treatment to.

I fought for fairness (and lawlessness) against all prior Utopian Regimes and I will continue to do so in this new, darkest age of Utopian proprietorship.

So matter and fact , everyone is happy that Barta got wiped from history rank , and the rest of 21 pages it's just bla bla of no one wins crown how they should and devs have no idea how to make rules transaprent or objective . Waste of time reading this . Im pretty sure you guys keep on spamming messages to increase ur post count :)

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Originally Posted by littlehobbit

So matter and fact , everyone is happy that Barta got wiped from history rank , and the rest of 21 pages it's just bla bla of no one wins crown how they should and devs have no idea how to make rules transaprent or objective . Waste of time reading this . Im pretty sure you guys keep on spamming messages to increase ur post count :)

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No, only retarded and the blindly biased are pleased Sparta didn't crown.

Which is not to say they aren't in the majority but still, far from everyone.

I've taken the issue of the ToS violation by Panthiras kd up with DavidC.

Before he claims he can't prove the player in questions age, DavidC played in the accused kingdom and knew full well who was playing there and the circumstances of their playing there.

As The whole kd knows, that makes the kd complicit in the cheating.

"But it isn't cheating"

But it! The ToS make the player ineligible to have an account or province. By ignoring that rule, the kd has filled a slot with someone who can't (according to the rules) play. Which is clearly cheating.

And hawk, having knowledge of this from his time in CD, can't very well now claim that he can't prove it. Particularly after Panthira has posted for ages now about it, which both acts as a confession and as proof that the violation hawk knew about before/when/right after he bought Utopia is still ongoing.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

I've taken the issue of the ToS violation by Panthiras kd up with DavidC.

Before he claims he can't prove the player in questions age, DavidC played in the accused kingdom and knew full well who was playing there and the circumstances of their playing there.

As The whole kd knows, that makes the kd complicit in the cheating.

"But it isn't cheating"

But it! The ToS make the player ineligible to have an account or province. By ignoring that rule, the kd has filled a slot with someone who can't (according to the rules) play. Which is clearly cheating.

And hawk, having knowledge of this from his time in CD, can't very well now claim that he can't prove it. Particularly after Panthira has posted for ages now about it, which both acts as a confession and as proof that the violation hawk knew about before/when/right after he bought Utopia is still ongoing.

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David fixed the ToS. Which is a good thing.
It does not however change the impression of bias it leaves with other players.

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Originally Posted by Goodwitch

David fixed the ToS. Which is a good thing.
It does not however change the impression of bias it leaves with other players.

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What impression of bias? The bias is plainly evident. A kd he played in has spent the last 4+ ages violating the rules so he changed them.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

You better have, after you were gifted first place by the owners who are friends and former players of your kd/leaders.

As for the rest of your post, yes, obviously the options are to quit or live with the fact that Utopia is now run according to which vendettas the owners can settle, or which friends they can give preferential treatment to.

I fought for fairness (and lawlessness) against all prior Utopian Regimes and I will continue to do so in this new, darkest age of Utopian proprietorship.

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Do you just not read, or do you just love to invent what you think people wrote?

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Originally Posted by Sheister

Do you just not read, or do you just love to invent what you think people wrote?

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You've lost me hombre

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Originally Posted by Pillz

What impression of bias? The bias is plainly evident. A kd he played in has spent the last 4+ ages violating the rules so he changed them.

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The rule change was a good move as it keeps the game safe or at least safer from liability claims.
But it does not change the fact that last age the rules as they were then, were broken.
To clarify, I was reasonably sure that Panthira, her son or her kingdom would not be punished for breaking rules when I brought it up.
It just shows what "on a case by case" basis means in Utopian terms , so everyone can be aware.

I know a lot of people are happy Spartans didn't crown. But for those that may wonder why the rule was made and why now...above example will answer that question

(korp before you jump on that rule thing again, I don't get on people's cases about their language skills as I have had to learn several and I know it's hard...trust me on this, it's a rule(the theory) that gets enforced(the decision process) and leads to punishment(the action taken))

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Originally Posted by Pillz

What impression of bias? The bias is plainly evident.

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This feels like a good time to point out that Bart has emailed support admitting to FWing again as recently as 48 hours prior to age end (when 1:19 was forced OOW for fake warring).

I'm not actually sure what you are taking issue with here -- Panthira's son playing? I don't see anything in the rules that someone under the age of... 13, presumably? That's the COPPA age at least.. must not play. If there were, the appropriate punishment would be to remove his province from the rankings (technically, it would be to delete his province and not allow him to return). Unfortunately, this reporting is happening off age -- the rankings have already been generated, which means no such punishment is possible.

Rules snapshot from 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20160423...tle=Game_Rules
From 2 months ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20170606...tle=Game_Rules

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Originally Posted by JeffT

This feels like a good time to point out that Bart has emailed support admitting to FWing again as recently as 48 hours prior to age end (when 1:19 was forced OOW for fake warring).

I'm not actually sure what you are taking issue with here -- Panthira's son playing? I don't see anything in the rules that someone under the age of... 13, presumably? That's the COPPA age at least.. must not play. If there were, the appropriate punishment would be to remove his province from the rankings (technically, it would be to delete his province and not allow him to return). Unfortunately, this reporting is happening off age -- the rankings have already been generated, which means no such punishment is possible.

Rules snapshot from 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20160423...tle=Game_Rules
From 2 months ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20170606...tle=Game_Rules

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You don't see anything in the rules because you changed them. The original rules are posted in this thread and they are pretty clear persons under 13 can not play, at all, and make no mention of exceptions being doled out in instances of parental consent.

And why just 1 province? The whole KD was aware they had a player that violated the rules. So it's ok for someone to have multies to bait his KD some wars, and the KD won't be auctioned because only 1 player directly violated the rules?

Get a grip Zauper.

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Originally Posted by JeffT

This feels like a good time to point out that Bart has emailed support admitting to FWing again as recently as 48 hours prior to age end (when 1:19 was forced OOW for fake warring).

I'm not actually sure what you are taking issue with here -- Panthira's son playing? I don't see anything in the rules that someone under the age of... 13, presumably? That's the COPPA age at least.. must not play. If there were, the appropriate punishment would be to remove his province from the rankings (technically, it would be to delete his province and not allow him to return). Unfortunately, this reporting is happening off age -- the rankings have already been generated, which means no such punishment is possible.

Rules snapshot from 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20160423...tle=Game_Rules
From 2 months ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20170606...tle=Game_Rules

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Your links are bull**** - the page was linked to today, the relevant lines posted here.

I've got the page from this afternoon open, and have screenshotted the paragraph to post later.

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Originally Posted by Pillz

You don't see anything in the rules because you changed them. The original rules are posted in this thread and they are pretty clear persons under 13 can not play, at all, and make no mention of exceptions being doled out in instances of parental consent.

And why just 1 province? The whole KD was aware they had a player that violated the rules. So it's ok for someone to have multies to bait his KD some wars, and the KD won't be auctioned because only 1 player directly violated the rules?

Get a grip Zauper.

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Are you trying to refer to this line, which is the only thing I see looking back a few pages:

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This Site is offered and made available only to users thirteen (13) years of age or older. If you are not yet 13 years of age, please discontinue using the Site immediately. If you are found to be underage, your account may be terminated without notice.

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If you are, I'd suggest you re-learn English.

Baiting wars gets a kingdom actioned, as you well know. Being a multi gets the player actioned. This is a player/province level, not kingdom level.

well I am neither biased against bart or sparta as I do not have a dog in this fight, nor have I any affilliation with the devs etc... and I am defintiely not retarded, and I am glad that the devs have taken the stance that if a kingdom is found to have cheated, not only is it actioned at the time of the cheating being proven but they are also makng the consequences lasting by removal of any rankings for the kingdom and any provinces that remain in the said kingdom at the end of the age...

Now that it is 'known' that this is the punishment for cheating, it is a step closer to bringing a sense of fair play back into the game, something it definitely needs.

As for Panthira and her son playing, it seems to me she sought permission from the owners for him to play before hand, so therefore she broke no rules... she went about it the right way, again I have no dog in this fight but common sense has to prevail, had she not asked permission before hand etc, then yes you could probably argue she was breaking the rules... Because she did ask permission there is absolutely no violation of the rules...

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From the terms of use - Utopia Wiki

This Site is offered and made available only to users thirteen (13) years of age or older. If you are not yet 13 years of age, please discontinue using the Site immediately. If you are found to be underage, your account may be terminated without notice.



From the privacy policy - Utopia Wiki

Age Limitation. This Site and the Services are not directed to person under the age of 13. If you become aware that your child under the age of 13 has provided us with personal information without your consent, please contact us at David@MUGAGamingLLC.com. We do not knowingly collect or solicit information from, market to or accept services from persons under the age of 13 years old. If we become aware that a person under the age of 13 has provided us with personal information, we take steps to remove such information.

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So parental consent was clearly given (as per Panthiras statments above) and the devs accepted that and allowed him to play. Therefore no cheating or rule breaking was committed. He played with the consent of his parent and with the consent of the devs / owners. Sure they state that the game is not targetted towards those under 13, and that persons found playing under the age of 13 MAY BE TERMINATED, but it does not say WILL BE WILL BE TERMINATE.

Seriously just accept that Bart was caught cheating (apparently) and the results and ramifications of that have more consequences that perhaps you guys thought would happen. Now you know the consequences for cheating have EOA ramifications, move on...

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Originally Posted by JeffT

Are you trying to refer to this line, which is the only thing I see looking back a few pages:


If you are, I'd suggest you re-learn English.

Baiting wars gets a kingdom actioned, as you well know. Being a multi gets the player actioned. This is a player/province level, not kingdom level.

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Having an extra player is not a kd level issue when they're aware it's a rule violation?

If you wanna learn English let's check this part:

Quote:

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This Site is offered and made available only to users thirteen (13) years of age or older. If you are not yet 13 years of age, please discontinue using the Site immediately.

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Excalibus common sense never works in these arguments. Utopian lawyers are never wrong and it's always devs fault.

At least it sure seems that way in the few threads i seem to waste my time reading.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffT

This feels like a good time to point out that Bart has emailed support admitting to FWing again as recently as 48 hours prior to age end (when 1:19 was forced OOW for fake warring).

I'm not actually sure what you are taking issue with here -- Panthira's son playing? I don't see anything in the rules that someone under the age of... 13, presumably? That's the COPPA age at least.. must not play. If there were, the appropriate punishment would be to remove his province from the rankings (technically, it would be to delete his province and not allow him to return). Unfortunately, this reporting is happening off age -- the rankings have already been generated, which means no such punishment is possible.

Rules snapshot from 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20160423...tle=Game_Rules
From 2 months ago: https://web.archive.org/web/20170606...tle=Game_Rules

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What they Goodwitch is whinging about is looking for any old claptrap to say 'See, see the devs have friends and they play favourites!' Most normal people wouldn't stoop to use a player's personal situation and family links to go 'Amm, you're breaking the rules, delete delete!'

I do think most normal people in Uto would agree the following

a) An employee handbook doesn't say you can't **** on your desk, but it's not allowed anyway and you will get sacked if you do it
b) A creative approach to get a better Uto environment on track is a positive move
c) Some peeps want you to be ultra specific and tied down in relation to rules and punishment so they can find a way round them...see 'A'
d) Acting the way you guys did was a masterstroke - because if you had done it at the point the initial offences happened, they would have **** played and griefed for the rest of the round, having nothing else to aim for
e) It's a good lesson for others to remember to play right to the end of the age, not slack off because 'we can't crown'
f) Bart is probably laughing at the situation himself and seeing the funny side. Who knows, he may even have wanted it to come to this in order to clean up general top play. I wouldn't even be surprised. I think it's a mistake to underestimate him - and I don't even know him except for reading the forums.
g) we start with the assumption that you don't have favourites - although we might be wrong - and in support of that assumption after all Bishop although he has his failings has never, ever been accused of playing favourites in game, and heaven knows there are enough paranoid folks on here to shout if there was any suspicion. Would Bishop stand by and allow you to play favourites without saying a word to anyone - I don't think so. Doubtless Goodwitch will say that he has been chloroformed and tied up in his room. Without an internet connection and with the dodgy mic ;)

The end game = don't cheat and you'll be fine.
Hopefully one day it will also be don't ****play, and you'll be fine. I think this is a step in that direction. Goodwitch, I think that's what you're really keening about. The fact that ****play was stopped (Panthira's FW)....see 'A' in this list. IMO that situation was also handled correctly, despite your squealing that her kd should have been punished for it.

Just because kds have been allowed to get away with all sorts in the past doesn't mean that's the case now and that is not a bad thing.

I really hate agreeing with Sheister, but I think his posts in this thread are spot on.