Ive been playing a/m for like 10 ages, but going for a/t next age (assuming nothing big changes).
Was thinking DE or human, whats the minimum raw TPA for a/t?
I was thinking 3 raw, but my kd mates says 4+ is a must..
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Ive been playing a/m for like 10 ages, but going for a/t next age (assuming nothing big changes).
Was thinking DE or human, whats the minimum raw TPA for a/t?
I was thinking 3 raw, but my kd mates says 4+ is a must..
I can only tell you minimum mod should be >15
thats probably a bit higher than is needed but it wouldn't hurt :P
I guess you've got to ask yourself what you want to achieve. 3 raw is too low if you want to AW but it is fine for NSing most targets. Also depends what kinda kd you're in... if you do a lot of massacres on specific targets then your tpa doesn't have to be very high at all.
4+ raw.
The mod doesn't matter as much as people think, for several obvious reasons.
Depends on who you are going after, I'd suggest you start with 4 raw and see how you do if you're struggling with that move it to 5 raw.
I find 4.5 to be about what I need to be successful with my 10% TD and 70% in science.
If you plan to focus more on the thievery side though I'd shoot for 12-15 mod tpa.
Min 3
4 Raw, 10 with protection
what are the obvious reasons?Quote:
Originally Posted by VT2
i do 4 raw when not playing gnome, 4+ when playing gnome
Yeah, mod TPA does not matter ... A Dwarf with 5 raw TPA is probably better than a Gnome with 4 raw TPA, 20% Thieves Dens and 100% Crime science ... !? Raw TPA is completely irrelevant, because of the massive amount of thievery modifiers and their large impact on efficiency. Thievery is the game aspect with the most modifiers (Gnome bonus, Dwarf penalty, Thieves Dens, Crime, Invisibility). You will also never send out all your Thieves anyway.Quote:
The mod doesn\'t matter as much as people think, for several obvious reasons.
Regarding OP, it really depends on the level where you are warring and the age progress. For the very first days of the game where people tend to focus on military first, a mere 3 TPA raw and some Thieves Dens (10% for starters) is a good value. As age progress you will want to increase these values, while maintaining a good balance between Offense and TPA. This age I went as high as 7 TPA raw with 20% Thieves Dens (around 35 TPA after modifiers), but I obviously relied on Housing science and honor bonuses for this, in order to be able to Assassinate Wizards on Dark Elves T/M. 5 TPA and 15+ Thieves Dens is fine.
Raw matters OOW in that in order to steal large amounts you need large numbers of thieves to send.
It matters in war because your thieves will last longer with the losses from fails/massacre.
Mod matters as its the actual used number, but your modifications do often drop in war as more buildings are in progress. Sciences can go either way of course.
I'd say 4+ minimum raw, 10+ minimum mod, which is easy with 15%+ TD and 50%+ Sci along with honour bonuses/race.
Raw is actually almost never relevant in war, because the limiting factor on thievery operations is almost always the amount of ressource your province has. Check the following results, for example, with ops performed on a same size province with around 800K gc (posted in order) on 1500 acres :Quote:
Raw matters OOW in that in order to steal large amounts you need large numbers of thieves to send.
Sending 1500 Thieves
Our thieves have returned with 17,056gc.
Sending 10000 Thieves
Our thieves have returned with 16,520gc.
Sending 1000 Thieves
Our thieves have returned with 16,001gc.
If we take the randomness into account, I can assume that I need to send around 1500 thieves to get an optimum return. In order to get optimum returns while sending all my thieves, I would need to find someone with more than 5M gc, which does not happen in real gaming conditions with all the inactive finders. On a given size, achieving optimum by sending more than 2 TPA on Rob the Vaults is very uncommon, and you will usually send 1 TPA. What matters here is the mod TPA, to guarantee good success rate, not the amount of thieves you can dispose.
Well, massacre has an impact on both raw TPA and mod TPA. Nevertheless, considering the fact that massacre casualties are a direct percentage of thieves owned, the best way to minimize massacre damage is to seek the highest possible TPA modifiers. Very high modifiers means lower raw TPA needed, thus less casualties on massacres and thus easier recovery. Relying on a high raw TPA without modifiers is one of the best way to get demolished by massacres.Quote:
It matters in war because your thieves will last longer with the losses from fails/massacre.
just by awswering the question, minimum tpa for a/t is 4. good luck with anything lower.
I fail to see how you arrived at your conclusion. There's nothing "random" about those numbers. Looks like you're riding the max gains pony with your 1K thieves already. Considering the amount... i'd guess around 700 would get you another 15,550.Quote:
Raw is actually almost never relevant in war, because the limiting factor on thievery operations is almost always the amount of ressource your province has. Check the following results, for example, with ops performed on a same size province with around 800K gc (posted in order) on 1500 acres :
Sending 1500 Thieves
Our thieves have returned with 17,056gc.
Sending 10000 Thieves
Our thieves have returned with 16,520gc.
Sending 1000 Thieves
Our thieves have returned with 16,001gc.
If we take the randomness into account, I can assume that I need to send around 1500 thieves to get an optimum return.
Oh, and I've found multiple targs this age with >10 mill :)Quote:
In order to get optimum returns while sending all my thieves, I would need to find someone with more than 5M gc, which does not happen in real gaming conditions with all the inactive finders.
You have to be either talking about genesis or fishing awful low in the nw's.Quote:
Originally Posted by shank
Toadi probably has a province over 6000 acres so for him to look at a 700-1000 acre province for gc is not going to happen, heck it doesn't happen much for me and I play a 2500-3000 acre province. With the gains on thievery being affected by nw ratio once you've cleared the mid range of provinces those inactives at starting acreage with those 10 mil gold stockpiles are just not worth looking at since they are below 50% your nw so your thieves can only take 50% of what they normally could not to mention the increased fails.
Toadi is right about mods if you know how to use mods correctly you can get your tpa at 4 raw to act like 6 raw and it's a lot more effective to have 2 more ospecs or elites per acre than to have 2 more thieves per acre.
Your damage is based on raw number of thieves sent.
Thieves also die as you op, so starting with low raw means you'll lose your ability to damage people fast.
There are very few ops that benefit by sending more than 1 tpa raw. Yes you lose thieves as you send but your success rate will be just as high and you're losses will be easily replaced where as if you use more raw than mods your losses will be harder to replace and you'll fall out of success range more quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by VT2
Toadi is not talking about running 1 tpa raw and 400% effect in mods rather running 4 tpa raw with 250% effect in mods instead of 6 tpa raw with effect in 166% mods, both have 10 mod tpa but the 4 raw tpa has a much easier time of maintaining 10 mod tpa.
Nope, talking about WoL. Had a 495K op yesterday sending 17,000 thieves. Obviously I must be fishing in the low nw's... lmaoQuote:
You have to be either talking about genesis or fishing awful low in the nw's.
Actually my province is currently sitting around 1500 acres and probably 270K NW. In this range there are a lot of honor hunting kingdoms who seek for plunders all day long, and inactives are never able to amass high amount of gold. I think the highest I found this age was 4M gc. I roughly have 10K thieves, but never ever use them all, so my raw number is fairly irrelevant. On typical NS my returns are usually capped at 1500 thieves, only Riots really benefits from sending slightly more.
Since people will never send all their thieves, as long as you have enough thieves to send to reach the optimum, all what is relevant is the success rate, thus the modified TPA. Someone with 5 TPA and no modifiers will be less efficient than someone with 3 TPA but high modifiers, because both provinces will inflict the same damage but the second one will succeed more.Quote:
Your damage is based on raw number of thieves sent.
Once again, as long as your raw is over the optimum, you lose nothing on having a lower raw but with a higher mod.Quote:
Thieves also die as you op, so starting with low raw means you'll lose your ability to damage people fast.
Technically, all ops can benefit from sending more than 1 TPA raw - it comes down to whether or not sending more than 1 TPA raw will inflict maximum damage/steal maximum resources.
Yes, a high mod is badass, but if you don't have the raw numbers to back the mod up, you'll run out of thieves in short order, and the damage you'll be dealing will be significantly less.
How about propaganda and AW (asked this another thread - no response so far). Will 5 TPA raw buy you anything more than 3 TPA raw?
For propaganda, yes, most probably, but losses will be just as epic as your gains.
Assassinate wizards, not sure. Try it out.
I haven't really found a limit to propaganda since it was boosted a few ages ago - same with assassinate wizards.
Might have to go rogue the next age to check them both out.
Last age I did a lot of experimenting with this.Quote:
How about propaganda and AW (asked this another thread - no response so far). Will 5 TPA raw buy you anything more than 3 TPA raw?
Prop's really tough to test due to its inherent randomness... but I'll say I didn't find my gains ceiling to really be significantly higher with 10,000 thieves vs 6,000 thieves. (let's say a gnome ~2K acres)
That said I usually send 3+ tpa on props because that's where I've found a happy medium. Wish i had more to support it than the empiricism of ages past...
Assassinate Wizards do have a cap, but if you are using it on T/M or A/M, they will usually have enough Wizards so that sending all your Thieves will not reach the optimum. You will only start noticing the cap after pulling heavy AW on them already, or if you are performing AW on low WPA provinces.
Propaganda does not seem to have any decently achieveable cap, I have made a couple of tests this age sending up to 7 TPA on similar range provinces (both in NW and land) and results indicated a constant progress in returns.
As a good rule of thumb, 1 TPA is a good start for most of the ops, Riots excepted. Then tweak around this value by increasing or decreasing it, and watching the trend. For example go for a first NS with say 1000 thieves on 1000 acres, and kill 100 troops. If a second one with 1100 kills 100 too, then you are oversending, and should move down to test 900. If kit kills more than 100, then keep increasing until it caps. As you inflict casualties, returns will go down and the amount of thieves sent should follow proportionally.
Raw tpa doesnt really matter unless you have like .5 raw tpa with 6000% modifiers. no matter what you are going to want to have atleast 3 raw tpa in order to do some damage with your ops.
Anyway, back to the actual topic of this thread... First off, the amount of tpa needed for an A/T to be effective is depending on how strong your oponents will be. If you in a SK (i'm guessing your not because your asking us how to run an A/T, and all SK know how to run hybrids) then I have no idea how many tpa you need, because i'm not in a SK! If you are an average KD, then under 7 mod tpa is an ineffective A/T. 7-10 mod tpa is an OK A/T. 10-12 mod tpa is a good A/T, 13+ mod tpa is a great A/T. If you are in a ghetto KD, then just bump each of the rankings down 1 lvl.
Try this website out for size:
http://utopiaresource.com/wiki/index...es_%26_Stealth
Also:
4 Raw TPA is a good start. The hardest ops call for at least a 3/1 ratio of mod tpa. Every operation is different, thievery is definitely an art.