How would you rate each race, from best to worst, as an attacker (you can exclude Faery)?
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How would you rate each race, from best to worst, as an attacker (you can exclude Faery)?
Dwarf and Orc or Orc and Dwarf are tied in first place.
Dwarf with the ability to be a great Hybrid attacker.
Orc with the uber Off lite and gains bonuses
Avian and Undead or Undead and Avian are tied in second place.
Both are formidable. The only deciding factor for putting Undead in 3rd is because it's going to take an experienced player to take advantage of the Undeads. Converting lites is what I'm referring to. Avians will be good for newer players.
Elf is in 3rd/4th
They have a great magic ability and should be more than capable of creating a good attacking base through the use of magic.
Halfling obviously 4th/5th
They have a mid ground lite tied with elf in offense, but they're gonna take heavier losses than the elf when attacked.
Faery...so sad it is....
Human says hi
I'd say:
Avian>=Orc
Orc nicest off, best gains, buffed def make a bit more formidable but now much harder to maintain Off in war (OOW just plunder and plunder...). Whereas Avian have the most gc efficient elite Imo, with fastest attack times can outhit anything pretty much although loss of ambush sucks and -30% BR can be counterbalanced with homes, (with the right personality you can fit some homes in...)
Dwarf=Human
After gaining back that Gen, Dwarf are quite solid again though its probably best to couple them with shepherd if u can't manage bushels well (a starving prov hurts). Humans are solid attackers too although they have dumb ospecs and after losing +1 dspec they arent as strong as they used to be. Still can reach over 100opa easy but harder if you want to make any use of that thievery bonus. But hu merchant ftlulz~~
Elf
Only one of the worst elites for the age but otherwise decent bonuses. Can still pull off a semi-decent A/m (82-85opa, 40dpa army out, with (2.5-4 raw) 5-6 mod WPA, 2 raw TPA on my calcs) which is decent for casting PF and FB on enemy attackers/fatties along with all the other spells (storm, greed etc.) or a/M.
Undead
Suicide+Suicide+Suicide+Suicide all age long to keep up elites. Only active (+in decent kds) provs are gonna be able to bring them to their maximum capabilities. Just chain when army home. Most people are gonna fall flat on their face if they don't know what their doing
Halfling
Played one this age, definitely got some better boosts, cheap theives, full elite army but i still have problem with their sendable Offence. Best utilized as an a/T or suicider ftl.
Faery
Conquest then TM for free land
*DISCLAIMER* These are all base on my opinions and assumptions. Biases do exist (some races are just THAT much more better for some reason :P)
I'd have to say BEST attacker considering nothing else would be Orc, Avian, Human, Dwarf, Undead, Halfling, Elf
More practical: Avian, Human, Orc, Undead, Dwarf, Elf & Halfling tied
Even without ambush immunity Avians I feel are better for A/_ then humans, but not much at all.
I feel the -20% effectiveness T/M for orc is going to make them big targets for any A/t Human/Avian and with a good player undead will be better than dwarf, WITH A GOOD PLAYER
Elf uses magic to cripple then strike, halfling uses stealth to cripple than stirke.
Orc
Avian/Human
Halfling/Dwarf
Elf/Undead
orc
dwarf
human/avian
undead/elf
Orc
Avian/Human
Dwarf
Undead
Elf/Halfer
People are aware that Halfers are alive and well right? lol
Its interesting to see that people rate things differently. For example most people like Orc, but they are still so easy to ambush they have to anon, or go warrior (and still be ambushed). Some people completely disregard undeads, who have a potential convert rate (under ideal conditions) of 20% and elves who still have excellent bonuses, despite the weak elite.
will be fun to see how the age progresses.
Math, with some assumptions:
Fixed NW (build+sci+pes) 73
PopSci 15%
Off/Def ratio 65% 35%
Target PPA 8
Target rWPA (after race) 1
Target rTPA (after race) 1
Undead don't suffer sci penalty to magic/thievery. (It's too hard to calc that without even more arbitrary assumptions).
_____________MPNW______%Max
Faery______0.588511173____84%
Elf (cur)____0.620155039____88%
Dwarf______0.637115025____91%
Halfer______0.64831059_____92%
UD 50/50___0.649651972____93%
Elf (4.5NW)_0.664819945____95%
Human_____0.672720652____96%
Avian______0.674252002____96%
Undead____0.690537084____98%
Orc_______0.701325527___100%
Those assumptions can, and will, vary wildly even for a pure attacker. Note the fixed 8 ppa - that's gonna take human further than UD for sure when it comes to income, but dwarf has them both with the free build. No number can capture all of that complexity, even within the limited scope of pure attackers.
My personal power rankings for pure attacker war races:
Avian
Orc
Human
Dwarf
Undead
Faery
Elf
Halfling
if only I was gonna play, and you dumb noobs would be in my range. Easy farming.
very much so but with no hospitals and lower leet power I felt other races to better attackers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palem
I don't think we like orc, just know it to be very good, if not best attacker. combine things like you mentioned though, other races would be the ones we likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
Right, and you listed them. Others did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooah
i like:
1. avian
2. orc
3. dwarf
4. halfling
5. undead
6. human
7. elf
8. faery
although undead could potentially move up to #2 if played right
i think undead are being seriously underestimated
LOL no it isn't... Anyone who chooses Dwarf even over Halfling doesn't understand game mechanics. Dwarf is horrible, even with it's 20% BE bonus. Even Halfling is better in almost every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by reddeath
Undead is a much better A/M than Elf. All else being equal, undeads only need <29% elites to be better attackers than Elf. Should be really easy considering the given conversion rate. Plus they have a better spellbook (chastity>PF).Quote:
Originally Posted by kbone
1. Undead(more powerful than ever before, conversion rates are alot better)
2. Avian even though they are easy to cripple with magic
3. Dorf fog, only reason for them this high, starvation will be a big problem though
4. human should be able to maintain elites in war
5. orcs ment for short wars only
6. Halfling can be more better than hummies, dorfs and orcs in war, but not out of war. Best played as a back-up attacker
7. Elf the elite has been weakened but can still play as a back-up attack
Not trying to hijack a thread, but what all will effect conversion rates?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
It's basically tied into the gains formula, so hit close to your own NW and KDNW, and a province without GBP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Pipe
Also based on the % of your offense that is elites and specs. Higher specs % gives higher conversion rate.
Also, after further thought, I'm going to revise my list a bit. Undead is a bit stronger than I had originally thought.
Orc
Avian
Undead/Human
Dwarf
Elf/Halfer
I would basically run virtually no defense for the first month and maintain a high % of off specs and convert as much as I can, then convert to a standard build and pwn people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordray
Elves are the best but I am going with UNDEAD purely because of preference not performance.
1. Elf
2. Undead
3. Orc
4. Dwarf
5. Avian
6. Faery
@Dwarf ( Age 49 )
Free Building Construction
Building Efficiency : +25% (was +20%)
No Accelerated Construction
Immunity to Fog
Specific Spellbook: Fog, Animate Dead
Inf: 1/1
Def: 0/5
Off: 5/0
Eli: 7/4 $800 6.0nw
~ vs ~
Dwarf ( Age 50 )
* + 20% BE
* Free Building Construction (accelerated not available)
* -20% thievery effectiveness
* food consumption doubled
Elite Unit – Berserker (7/4, $900, 6.0 nw)
Spell book: Fog, Animate Dead
surely your trolling by saying elves are the best? :|
http://forums.joltonline.com/showthr...1#post15067566Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead Pipe
I rate it based on practicality and my preferences. It has nothing to do with numbers or trolls.
1. Halfling
2. Avian
3. Orc/undead
4. Human
5. Elf
6. Faery
7. Dwarf
I pity the dwarf. The only thing that appeals me to dwarf is fog. But now faery will have fog too, and dwarf no longer immune to fog.
The best hybrid will be Faery A/T. The reason being that, unlike other hybrid attackers, Faery's self spells are excellent for defense and give it the ability to bounce any mage's spells about 50% of the time with only 1 WPA, have 4-5 hrs attack time advantage on opponents and make more money. Thievery, however, is Faery's stronger point for a hybrid simply because of the +1 to stealth, which, when combined with Rogue is +2 to stealth and allows for ridiculous amounts of ops.
Avian
Human/Orc
Halfling
Undead
Dwarf
Elf
Fae
:( Elves are rubbish now :( They used to be able to attack. Not so much anymore. If you wanna do magic, might as well go Faery now :(Quote:
elves who still have excellent bonuses, despite the weak elite.
is elves def spec nw also inflated, along with it's def?
No. All dspecs are valued at 1 Nw/D spec point, so the efficiency will always remain relative to the other races. The extra point just allows it to train more offense, which is almost enough in itself, but it's elite efficiency really holds it back. Plus a 6/3 value is inherently stupid. 6/4 @ 4.5 Nw makes the most sense, but given that the final changes have been made, I recommend you make other strategy plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanoidTyphoon
elves are awesome, look harder.
We will have to agree to disagree. Undead at base 10% conversion is miles ahead in military and spellbook. And money ain't no thang next age Bishop. Remember the 4gc per acre per tick increase (assuming 8pPA), and Elf will be cheap to run. So what? Elf is going to go Sage and dump that money into science? There are better personalities than sage. If you go sage I can be better, if you don't but still pump that money into science then I will learn you in hostile. I guess it all comes down to the kingdom... how much the KD values PF and if the KD values Elf over Faery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop
EDIT: Also... I will eat my socks if Elf wins any crown (Honour included). Isn't gonna happen.
Elf has significant NW bloat and bad space efficiency despite the 6 def spec. They really are just plain terrible - what in their spell book possibly makes up for they bad army? Whatever it is... Faery has it as well, and the ToG easily makes up for their econ, and then a lot. And the fog and ambush strength make up the 4% attack power Faery was short (see my table). Fanat, btw, makes that difference 2%.
Between Faery and Elf the *only* advantage I see Elf having is being able to spam more fireballs. Which, frankly, isn't really an important consideration when you look at the +stealth Faery gets and the better damage you can dish out with all spells.
Take another look at my earlier table - those assumptions aren't bad for estimating raw attacking power. Elf with the current NW elite just plain stinks, and it's got nowhere near the compensation for it Faery has. In fact, I'd revise my view of Halfers up above Elf. Thinking on it a bit more, I do in fact believe Elf is *the worst race* this age. Halfers at least should be run for the gnome intel - sucks for whoever has to play intel *****, but someone's got to do it. Any kingdom plan that involves Elves is suboptimal in my book.
Quick add: you can see where the fixed Elf ranks - maybe a *little* high. Someone proposed 4.75 NW elites for Elf, which I think is safer than my proposed 4.5 NW.
elf isn't aewsome, look closelier.
Ethan, are you proposing a faery AM in a ghetto?
ho ho ho.
Or A/T, or A/t/m. Ya, you just run lower pes by a bit and ToG oow for stronger sci. Not sure if sage, tact, or rogue is best. Clearly the more of them (in a coordinated kingdom) the better, as a NM chain requires a critical mass and has a small window. But ToG and Fog make them a ligit attacker on their own, even in a getto. Not that most in a getto *will* be any good, as they'll all mindlessly go T/M, to the detriment of all. But a good player can run a "solo" Faery attacker, and a kingdom strat can use them as their core hybrids. (Pure "heavy" attacker is out - I grant there *is* a limit to what you can compensate for. 100 opa is not gonna happen. 60 can.)
Ignoring the rest of the kingdom - Dwarf might make a better A/M than Faery. Elf, I'm fairly sure, does not.
You CAN run anything, but people don't WANT to run a sub-par prov.
Not that I was planning on going Faery A/M but I have put a bit of thought into it.
The problem I haven't been able to get around with a Faery a/M is that you won't get any def boost when armies are home if your using O-specs for Offence. This will leave you rather open to super easy learn attacks from ppl.
Basically if your running 60 OPA with Ospecs (don't forget Fanaticism) and 50-60 DPA with Elites you wont be able to protect that same sci even when armies are home, since you'll still only have 50-60 DPA armies home. Running more Elites works for the defense side but it makes it incredibly tough to hit the 60 OPA then.
Was I missing something in my crude calcs?