UF News: Let's talk about Ghettos
Quick Note: Any/all use of the term 'Ghetto' in this piece is meant to indicate kds whose play is below average. If this is not how you use the term, I do not care. It is not intended to be insulting in any way. As a couple of the interviewees said: "We all start somewhere". This piece can be considered an 'OP/ED' piece, and any opinions expressed here are not in any way 'official' opinions about the game. Enjoy the piece :)
It was a lot tougher than initially thought figuring out how to write a piece on ghettos that would be interesting to read. First I thought I'd keep it simple and interview a bunch of ghetto players on ghetto topics, but that's not really something people would want to read. Then I thought maybe get some big names on the forums and discuss ghettos, but then that's more a piece about ghettos rather than a piece 'for' ghettos. Finally I came to the conclusion that I would mix it up, get a couple ghetto players and a non-ghetto player and talk about ghetto issues from both a ghetto perspective and an outside perspective.
Interviewees:
Bishop - Your (other) friendly neighborhood mod. Formerly of Heretics, Insolence, and Rapture, Bishop is a well-seasoned and well respected player. Bishop started playing in the 6th age of Utopia. I won't delve too much into Bishop's history. If you're interested, just ask, he's not as 'mean' as some make him out to be :)
Drengi - Drengi started playing somewhere around age 20. After quitting due to inactivity, Drengi recently joined back up. He's usually been the monarch of honest kds, but nothing that people would consider good.
Rohanaj - This is Rohanaj's first age of Utopia. Some friends invited him to come and play and after screwing up protection and building a rainbow strat the learning has started.
The first issue I was interested in was just a glimpse into how these kds were run. As we all know, a bad set up will doom a kd before they can even begin and if you don't know how to run a war, you'll likely lose them. I'm sure we've all run across the stubborn noob in the forums, "I'm running an Undead/Rouge TM, and I don't care if that doesn't fit into what you guys want to do or not!" But I figured ghettos could at least model what the better kds do. I've certainly been part of kds that aren't creative at all and just follow in line at what was successful before. Not surprisingly, I got some of both worlds in the responses...
Rohanaj: "When I joined, our Kingdom was 10 provinces : 3 pure mages, 2 pure thieves, 2 attackers, and 3 hybrids. We've waved at three different Kingdoms who backed away and didn't want war, and gotten into a total of three wars since I joined (the latest being an end-of-Age skirmish we're doing right now). In our two wars, we agreed to mutual peace with one and we won the other nicely. We've grown quite a bit since I joined (around 2 million Kingdom networth at that point) up to a little over 4 million now, along with a good number of random provinces getting thrown in. Luckily a few of them are active and have helped out."
Drengi: "Well I try and do what top Kd's do, we chain etc
but it is hard when people are not too active."
Out of curiousity, I asked Drengi how active his kd is, and in 24 hours his kd, of 20 provs, averages 17 uniques in 24 hours. I'm sure some days are better than others, but that's definitely some ghetto activity lol. Either way, I moved onto why exactly they choose to play in ghettos. With trades available, they could easily get out of their ghettos and play somewhere more established...
Bishop: "i figured if i was doing support i shouldnt be playing in a ranked kd
esp after there was an incident with some abs kd accusing insolence of reporting them and abs maintained the report was acted on straight away cos i was a mod"
Rohanaj: "In my experience with MMOs, whether text-based or graphic like WoW, the established, highly successful Kingdoms/Guilds/etc. all have two things in common : over-the-top time commitment and blind obedience. Those two aspects are exactly why I don't get involved in groups like that.
For example, in the recruitment forum, I noticed a while back someone stating that their Kingdom was recruiting and that you needed 24/7 internet access, able to wake up and log in at any time, and willing to do exactly what is directed no matter what. While I can understand wanting people to do their best, both in and out of wars in Utopia, I find this excessive. We had one of our best attackers be absent for a 4-day stretch, the last day and a half of which was when we were in a war. But he came back, and has been making hits and helping out as much as he can. Could we be doing better if he were there the whole time? Of course, but that's not the point.
Blind obedience is something I also can't get behind. Even though I tend to be one who takes charge and helps direct operations/attacks during our wars and non-war actions, I never do so without wanting feedback and assistance from others. I think a lot of people enjoy it more when they can be an active part in determining what a Kingdom does.
So to finally answer this question, I am not interested in joining an already established, successful Kingdom, I would rather build up a Kingdom in a more casual atmosphere because to me it's much more fun."
Drengi: "good enough to play in a lot better KD's tbh as i work shifts
but there is something fun about building your KD's from scratch
I have invested a fair amount of money on invites
just to get a few more active players
I also find ghetto wars enjoyable
I guess I do think about playing in 'top' KD's.. but would prefer to make one myself
So I asked why he found ghetto wars more enjoyable, a small detail I found kind of surprising and interesting.
Drengi: "It's not so regimented
you never know what might happen hehe"
From here I moved onto a fairly obvious point. When asked if they were competitive people, they all answered with a resounding yes, yet they choose to play in kds that are really doomed to limited, if any, success. I know when I spent my time in ghettos, I was super annoyed at the minute little failures that just seem to stack endlessly. So I asked if they found it frustrating as well...
Bishop: "ya, very
seeing some guy randomly hit the NS target then brag about his gains, despite a monarch message saying 'do not hit the NS target' is real frustrating
losing a war because people dont follow orders also gets to you
thats why i dont check papers any more"
Rohanaj: "I do occasionally find myself focusing more than others on trying to make sure we succeed as individual provinces, but especially as a Kingdom. This can lead to some frustration at times, but overall I don't think being competitive in itself keeps me from enjoying myself in the Kingdom I'm in. The biggest detail related to that, though, is the people I'm playing with."
Drengi: "im pretty competative
but as i said, i dont take it too seriously
I hit 480K NW this age.,.. but got chained back to 800 acres
it doesnt bother me too much as were having fun
...
activity sometimes... and peoples lack of ability to follow simple instructions lol
bouncing is annoying... but one of those things"
So I think moved onto a pretty common scenario. A player who says he is knowledgeable randoms into a ghetto and is usually either met with open arms, or lots of hostility. I asked for the two perspectives...
Bishop:"ya
i specifically recall one guy in the ghetto i joined after tics
no matter how nicely i tried to explain things to him he was quite sure that his way was correct
i handled it by playing my way and outgrowing him
i finished at 5k, he finished at 2k
...
he got angry with me
he was the chamberlain or whatever
had an inflated opinion of his skills
not that im not arrogant or anything
i called him out eventually on a strat
i forget exactly what it was
but he raged and went inactive
...
ya
pvp games
they attract certain types of players"
Drengi: "depends on what he is saying
I do a lot of research on the game, and like to think i have a pretty good grasp of it
obviously if its a valid point i would take it on board... if they are being pedantic there are other homes elsewhere
see if we can resolve the issues, i am always open to change.. but if they are just being difficult i would ask them to move on
I havent had that happen yet though"
Next, I wanted to move onto the wiki/guide. There has been some discussion about it not being a true guide, and having a truly new player, I wanted to take the opportunity to get his opinions on it.
Rohanaj: "The wiki is great as a source of basic information, but as a guide it falls short.
I love the descriptions and formulas for calculating details now that I've been playing over a month. I'm a numbers-oriented person. However, as a beginning player, I was pretty lost in terms of a basic approach to building a province. There are some examples and discussions about this in the Utopia Forums, but that can be a difficult route for a new player to take just to find a good example of a protection build and military strategy.
That would be my biggest point about the wiki, establish a beginner's page with different example builds, perhaps one each for an attacker, a mage, and a thief. As for hybrids, that can be figured out by the player from combining the basic approaches listed for the main three roles."
I also got Bishop's opinions on the matter...
Bishop: i would agree though that the game guide needs serious work
Bishop: i like the wiki in that its got tons of information
Bishop: but for new players there is just too much blasted at them
Bishop: id like to see a tutorial that unlocks menu options as you progress
Bishop: to at least get people familiar with their options initially
Bishop: uk, even though i hated the game premise and goal, actually did that initial tutorial pretty well
Palem: lol so you'd like to see something like that one dragon tutorial, but an official one?
Bishop: rosedragons thingy?
Palem: yea
Bishop: somethign similar - interactive
Bishop: utopia is very good but it can take some time to get into it
Bishop: we need to ease people in far more smoothly
Next, I moved onto what each person felt the biggest issue is that keeps ghettos from getting better, and surprisingly I got 3 very different answers...
Bishop: "it only takes one person to lead a kingdom effectively
i think there is a lack of leadership as you go down the ranks"
Rohanaj: "Lack of communication and focus in a Kingdom are probably the largest factors here. If you have provinces that don't interact on the forums and hit random targets, especially hitting different Kingdoms when you're trying to start a war with someone, that makes for an immediate and sizable disadvantage. Not to mention the fact that if you have a couple guys hitting out of Aggressive stance on a Kingdom you're not trying to war with, the meter could move very quickly and you could find yourself being declared on by the 'wrong' Kingdom.
Bottomfeeding aside, any ghetto CAN grow and get more successful with just a little organization. I would bet that most ghettos that can't improve have provinces that don't even know anything about most of the other provinces in the Kingdom except for the Race and Size/Networth listed in the Kingdom page. If you don't know things like the Personality to go with the Race, and at least ballpark numbers of offense and defense for your attacking provinces, then you're not able to contribute like you should in discussions and Aid contributions. Thus, your Kingdom won't improve."
Drengi: "getting bottomfed from
it just ruins morale...
i think this game would have a lot more players if it didnt happen so much
people quit if they dont see things getting better"
I asked Rohanaj on his opinions/experiences with bottomfeeding as well...
Rohanaj: "We've only had one bad experience with a Kingdom much, much larger than us trying to destroy/beat down/feed on us. When it was happening, it was a pretty crappy feeling really, knowing that there was absolutely nothing we could do to even stand a chance against them, so we hit fortified stance and tried our best to survive. Luckily for us, even though we took quite a beating before it happened, we had a few other Kingdoms who came to our aid and essentially forced the offending Kingdom to grant us a ceasefire agreement.
My take on it? I don't understand it. I don't see where the enjoyment in something like that is.
...
Why would people actually enjoy playing a game in a scenario where there is essentially a zero percent chance of losing? If you took the competitive nature out of sports, would people watch? Some would, but the vast majority wouldn't.
I think any giant province or Kingdom who decides it would be fun to bottomfeed because there's absolutely no chance of retaliation or threat is a coward. "
Now whether you play in a kd where an 15 person wave is either incredibly impressive or a big let down, in the end it really doesn't matter. I was so very glad to see a reoccurring theme between the three interviewees, and that was just having fun with the game. Utopia is such a unique experience for an online game in that the game is really secondary to the personal interaction. Whether you're in Dreams, or in some lowly ghetto, you can get the exact same amount of enjoyment out of the game. So I'll leave you with some funny quotes and everyone's final comments.
Bishop: my kid tried the game
Bishop: he built 200 homes
Bishop: figured hed need somewhere for his 500 soldiers
Palem: haha
Bishop: its stuff like that that vets know without thinking
Bishop: but its not intuitive to new players
Palem: your kid isn't gojete is he?
Bishop: thats not such a big issue nowadays but i can remember trying to force my gf to leave the pub early so i could get back and hit
Palem: Any chance at a return to playing in a ranked kd? I know you play in ghettos to avoid any conflict of interests, but whenever your integrity is questioned, it's usually top players that come to your defense...
Bishop: modding, support and general stuff i do on utopia takes up so much time that i barely get a change to play even at a ghetto level
Bishop: im getting too old now to be getting up at 5am for hits and the likes anyway
Palem: lol that's unfortunate =\
Bishop: i play the game for the people i play with, not being ranked highly doesnt bother me
Palem: how many uniques would you say you average a war?
Palem: or rather, in 24 hours
Drengi: now what is uniques sorry? I always see it but dont know what it is
Rohanaj: I've only been around for half this Age, but I have to say that it appears the developers actually do listen and put some weight behind player feedback when it comes to changes and game details. I like that a lot.
Bishop: stop sending multiple mails to the queue
Bishop: and "these guys are active" isnt a valid cheat report
Bishop: but srsly
Bishop: there is so much planned for utopia
Bishop: features and the like
Bishop: i hope the devs get some of them done, as it feels like we could be at the point were the game grows again
Thanks to Bishop, Drengi, and Rohanaj for playing along.
Good luck to everyone next age! Have fun :)
