Dwarf / Sage

Can it be as effective as Undead/Orc plus as quick s a tactician? I know the elite of the latter is 9, but dwarves is not bad especially when you run with high TG. The added BE and +25% in science will boost income/BE and Pop science but is this an age of Science pumping? As the age goes on and if your kingdom wins alot it could be good with the new science bonuses.

You can also get <8 hour attack times with QF + 20% in Rax which again in time can decrease once BE goes up via Science.

Avian Tactician is obviously the faster race but yeah, thoughts on Dwarf / sage people? They also have the bonus of free credits so the faster they hit, the more they'll grow which unlike last age my Undead / Warrior never made enough money to Maintin my army AND keep my acres fully built even with credits!

@ 115% BE which should be maintainable in war???

1. Farms: 50 (10%)
2. Training Grounds: 100 (20%)
3. Military Barracks: 100 (20%)
4. Hospitals: 90 (18%)
5. Guilds: 50 (10%)
6. Towers: 50 (10%)
7. Thieves' Dens: 60 (12%)

Total Land: 500 Acres (100% built)

** Effects Summary (Available Buildings Only) **
1. Produce 4,025 bushels (5,031 with FL), 12 books
2. +27.6% offense bonus, 25 books
3. -27.6% attack time, 25 books
4. 33.95% cure plague, -50.92% military losses, 22 books
5. Training about 1.15 wizards per hour, 12 books
6. Produce 690 runes per hour, 12 books
7. -48.58% losses, +36.43% effectiveness, 15 books

That will give Attack time returns on 12 hours to 7.6

Do people enjoy the thoughts of having dwarfs with no banks? Unless you plan on using your 12% TDs and ??? tpa to steal the income you need during war?

You can't get <8 hr attack time as dwarf/sage in war unless u get ~ -30% attack time from rax. If you wanted to attack 3 times a day your TDs will become useless quickly as you can't retrain thieves and ur TPA become purely used defensively, as a dwarf tact with 20% rax and ~100% BE you could get <8hr attack time.

Dwarf is effective in different ways than Orc/UD. Orc and Undead do more damage with attacks, Dwarf gets more cash and can defend against hits and ops better, while having the best offense that isn't Orc or Undead.

No fixed build strat will do for a dwarf... Dwarves will want to be rotating their buildings often to adjust to circumstances.

25% Rax @ 92.2% BE + Quick Feet = 8hr Attack Time in War
20% Rax @ 108.5% BE + Quick Feet = 8hr Attack Time in War
18% Rax @ 117.1% BE + Quick Feet = 8hr Attack Time in War

Tactician not required.

So I should run 12% banks instead of TD? The thieves lost can easily be replaced and if I'm being chained TPA will raise significantly. I always try to run 3Tpa raw + science bonus and TD bonus could be deadly especially against undead/orc attackers. The TD was to allow me to steal runes also. My one concern about running rax for speed is... When chained heavily, does the buildings lost get split and as acres decrease, effects stay relatively the same?

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Originally Posted by Palar

You can't get <8 hr attack time as dwarf/sage in war unless u get ~ -30% attack time from rax. If you wanted to attack 3 times a day your TDs will become useless quickly as you can't retrain thieves and ur TPA become purely used defensively, as a dwarf tact with 20% rax and ~100% BE you could get <8hr attack time.

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Dwarves have Qf which is -10% attack time. Added to 25% is -35%. They can just about make <8 hour hits on a standard 12 hour hit time so any more into race is a plus, but to much a waste...

But you dont add the attack time

How the Rax + qf + tactician get calculated then?

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Originally Posted by American Badass

How the Rax + qf + tactician get calculated then?

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attacktime in war is 12.7*0.9(QF)*0.85(tac)*(1-attacktime mod from rax)

war is 16*.8 = 12.8, not 12.7

and (1-attacktime mod from rax) would be a number greater than 1 =)

*edit*
Didn't bother to look up numbers, just winged it =)

I'm not sure how thats relevant to the fact that your initial calc was wrong. 16*.8 is not 12.7.

The problem is if you are looking to compete against the orcs then you are going to be drafting higher, which would be allowed due to your BE (as most people would do). If you were to draft keeping 115% BE then you will be lacking raw numbers to compete against the orcs in the first place; mid-late age you might be able to draft and maintain 115% BE but the better kds would have their orcs with considerable science too so they would still have better raw numbers.

Anyway taking 115% BE with 20% Rax which gives -27.6% attack time; war against kd on different island =16
therefore attack time = 16*0.8 (full war bonus) * 0.9 (qf) * 0.724 = 8.34 attack time

Taking that you want 8 hr attack time; 8/0.8/0.9/16 = .6944.. ~ -30.6% attack time from rax.

edit: thought I might add land % needed you would only have to add another ~3.1% into rax so 23.1% rax (to give -30.6%) at 115% BE but if you are gaining land your rax % will drop, so you might want to build extra to say 26-30% depending on how much land you take in.

You don't get how pointing out that there were more than 1 fail in my initial calc makes it 2 fails, and how thats relevant for a discussion abou attacktime? If you did the calculation you would end up with an attacktime that is far more off if rax give additional attacktime, than the 6 mins difference between 12.8 and 12.7.

Tbh I was just pointing out that it could be misinterpreted.

attacktime in war is 12.8*0.9(QF)*0.85(tac)*(1+attacktime mod from rax***)

*** a negative number

No, i understood what you were trying to do with rax and most people wouldn't have an issue with it - you'd have to be pretty inept to calc rax as adding onto your attack time. The number you gave to base all the calcs off was incorrect though and thats far more important.

Yes 4 mins and 35 sec is really important I agree.

Back to DW/Sage: I'll love you if you run them without GS ;)

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Originally Posted by fwordz

Yes 4 mins and 35 sec is really important I agree.

Back to DW/Sage: I'll love you if you run them without GS ;)

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Where does one take them from though? I've scrapped the idea of TD now bit placed 10% into banks. Guess I'll have to sacrifice some TG to place 10% into GS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fwordz

Yes 4 mins and 35 sec is really important I agree.

Back to DW/Sage: I'll love you if you run them without GS ;)

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One day someone will just say "yes, i made a dumb mistake, thanks for pointing it out".

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Originally Posted by Bishop

One day someone will just say "yes, i made a dumb mistake, thanks for pointing it out".

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Yes I made a dumb mistake your right!

cuddles all round.

All age*

I really think people are underestimating dwarf on the attacking side. Dwarf has one major advantage over orcs....that is landlust, which would save you from deep chains. Not to mention the free building construction, which would help with growth in times when the overall kingdom economy is bad. :O

Orcs are more heavy stompers, dwarfs are more durable because of CS, better econ ( +15% BE free construction ) can hitt a bit faster than orcs but a bit weaker. But yes when getting chained you can LL some land back :)

But orcs can still LL just not really good but if a kd full of orcs have annof runes and the orcs getting chained why not LL? or fb? still does some damage just not allot lol :P

Once they all start ambushing each other whilst chaining each other, the ratio of land gained through attacks compared to land lust would slowly tip towards the land lusting side. Of course they could all resort to anon hits, but that would also lower the amount of land gained from attacks due to the increased times. In a war between dwarves and orcs it would be much easier to temporarily disable orcs from attacking at all since they can't land lust and will have to rely on large amount of land coming from an anon hit. (unless they send pretty much all their dspecs to the dragon, firebal the orc, and release wizzies/thieves, which opens them up to easy opping)
At that point their gains hitting up would be minimal, whilst all a chained dwarf has to do is find a low wpa target.

Yea orc can still landlust, but the gains would be so abysmal it would be a waste of runes imo. :O

I just had another thought. What if the dwarves saved up spec credits from a previous war win? People train mostly dspecs during war so if the dwarves won their previous war they might not have to spend those creds, and instead just train all elites during an eowcf. It's different for orcs where they are pretty much forced to spend their creds whether they want specs or elites.

With the new chances around winning wars there are allot of strategies you can utilize depending what you are aiming for.

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Originally Posted by Crypticterror

Orcs are more heavy stompers, dwarfs are more durable because of CS, better econ ( +15% BE free construction ) can hitt a bit faster than orcs but a bit weaker. But yes when getting chained you can LL some land back :)

But orcs can still LL just not really good but if a kd full of orcs have annof runes and the orcs getting chained why not LL? or fb? still does some damage just not allot lol :P

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Dwarves could take a fairly close amount of acres to the amount orcs can get when chaining if the dwarves have some good gains science. Would require a NS run by the fairies prior to chaining though, to get defense low enough for triple/quad taps from the dwarves. Early age orcs would probably stomp dwarves though, when they still have low science.

As for the chained orcs casting spells. The dwarves should be running around 3-4 raw WPA in preparation for land lusting when chained. After science mods the wpa should be fairly high, especially as a sage. In exchange dwarf could run lower raw TPA since its got clear sight and stronger watch towers. Damage for orc spells are so low they're not worth the runes anyway lol.

I thought base attack time was only 12.8 during the first 24 hours of war. Doesn't it reduce to 11.5 after 24 hours?

it reduces to 12.8 once the war bonus takes full effect.

Well, the -20% attack time kicks in after 12 hours but according to the guide after 24 hours there are "no distance penalties for attacks." What does that mean? Is it just outdated information?

No on same island base attack time 14.4 on difrent island base attack time is 16.
So after 24 hours there is no distance penalties for attacks.

The wiki is written badly; If you look at the attacking and defending article, it has no mention of the distance

It is still base attack time of 16 hrs, though maybe it could be switched to "No networth penalties for attacks"

in war or intra hitts there is no NW adjusting for attack times onley OOW nw also determires attack time if nw is not close to each other and it will be multiplyed by a certain amount.

Yeah, I always wondered why that was in the wiki. It never made sense.

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Originally Posted by Crypticterror

No on same island base attack time 14.4 on difrent island base attack time is 16.
So after 24 hours there is no distance penalties for attacks.

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The base time is always 16 and cannot ever be any different.

What comes first with science in this scenario?

Libraries > BE > Library?

Or

BE > Library > BE?

*Edit* I had a really long confusing question about BE + Libraries but then realised BE does not effect Library output, is that how it is suppose to be or bug? I spose it cannot be as both would just keep increasing and cause a problem :)

It's how it's supposed to be, to prevent the circular reference you just described, and to not make high BE ridiculously overpowered. (If it were the case, though - there wouldn't be a procedure of orders, and either way produces the same result if BE/Libs were to be modded ad infinitum.)