Honor Gains

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03-10-2015, 20:49
Maximus778

Honor Gains

Ok so I wanted to start a topic on Honor gains.

Thieves and Mages gain honor from Dishonorable ops. I feel its too high per op...
Attackers can only gain Honor from Traditional March which is the ONLY HONORABLE operation...
I feel attackers should gain Honor from other attacks as well be it like 25% of that from Traditional Marches I mean TM's are the Highest Honor provinces in the world while attackers get the shaft... Losing 5 honor per op even if that op is crappy gains... i mean arson 1 acres gives 6 honor???????? That seems a bit broken to me. What do ya think Bishop? think thats fair?
03-10-2015, 20:52
Korp

Attackers gain 600 honor, you think thats fair?!

You fail to realize something, its not a static number its depending on different factors.
03-10-2015, 20:53
Maximus778

600 honor from what?
03-10-2015, 20:54
Korp

Ill quote from your own post since you seem to forget very fast what you write yourself.

Quote:

Attackers can only gain Honor from Traditional March which is the ONLY HONORABLE operation...
03-10-2015, 20:58
Maximus778

how big do you have to be to gain 600 honor from one hit? i mean your just talking in general... there is no data... I mean lets put this into perspective...

120 acre hit gained about 75 honor in war... Get op'd 20 times Lose 80 Honor... Takes longer to make another hit... but less time to make more ops which is unbalanced.
03-10-2015, 21:09
Korp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximus778

how big do you have to be to gain 600 honor from one hit? i mean your just talking in general... there is no data... I mean lets put this into perspective...

120 acre hit gained about 75 honor in war... Get op'd 20 times Lose 80 Honor... Takes longer to make another hit... but less time to make more ops which is unbalanced.

Honor works like this, the more honor you have the more you will lose. If you're say a Viscount and get hit by a Knight you will lose tons of honor. But if you hit him you would gain very little.

Say you TM a T/M with good chunk of honor you're a Knight and hes a Viscount, you would probably get at least around 400 honor (Given within range etc) For him to take back that amount using your own numbers thats like 100 ops, he has to wait for mana/stealth to replenish and etc.
03-10-2015, 22:54
Band of Horses

If anything MS gives too much honor, should be = to prop. It's not :(
03-10-2015, 23:39
bombdigie

Is honor generated in war hits anymore? Was that taken out of the game?
04-10-2015, 00:03
Palem

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombdigie

Is honor generated in war hits anymore? Was that taken out of the game?

I think it's supposed to, but from tracking honor in my wars the last few ages if it does, it produces very, very little.
06-10-2015, 03:52
smercjd

I actually agree with the OP to some extent. Not that it's necessarily "unfair" or "broken" but just simply that it would be interesting if we could present attackers with a bit more of a way to gain/hold honor.

That said...giving the other attacks gains from honor is almost certainly not the way to go. It's the easiest way to break the honor system because you can just sit tiny and run plunders/learns the whole age and reach prince w/o any threat because you're not gaining acres. History books - Hel of Dim Forest. Then again, back then there was no cap to honor...so unlike HoDF, you would max at WH and not necessarily be broken by overwhelming honor bonuses.

I DO think that Ambush should give honor -- just like 1/2 acres gains, 1/2 honor gains as well - or maybe when you ambush you gain exactly 1/2 of the honor that was taken. Basically any attack involving acres should give honor.

Otherwise, I think it's fine. TMs can't gain honor oow. The occasional 1 honor here or there for casting land lust on a prince :p during UF...but that's really about it. Whereas attackers can REALLY benefit from oow hitting to gain honor. Also...IF an attack DOES manage to break that in range TM that's holding 7K honor, they will take like 800 in one hit. Which is pretty nuts.

I'm tired...I think the conclusion is -- ambush should give 1/2 honor that was taken -- OR -- generate NEW honor = to 1/2 of what was taken.
21-10-2015, 18:14
Hustisya

I think giving honor pts to all kinds of attacks is fair enough except anon.

Also imo honor pts gained on hits outside war is a bit too much. Imagine a kingdom can crown as most honorable by just waving into smaller kds while winning some few wars.
21-10-2015, 21:34
StratOcastle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hustisya

I think giving honor pts to all kinds of attacks is fair enough except anon.

Also imo honor pts gained on hits outside war is a bit too much. Imagine a kingdom can crown as most honorable by just waving into smaller kds while winning some few wars.

Agreed on anon.

Now I've never pursued honor but I know the unsteady ground attackers have to tackle to retain honor. I get sniped all the time but I generally fight for land. Land is good for what ails you as long as you enjoy fighting for it. - I should mention I don't play in any whoring kingdoms.
22-10-2015, 04:05
Persain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximus778

how big do you have to be to gain 600 honor from one hit? i mean your just talking in general... there is no data... I mean lets put this into perspective...

i've seen a CONQUEST cost a prince 500 honor and a trad march take over 1000. The reason t/ms gain so much honor and keep it is that they rarely eat hits/ops compared to attackers.

In your example fyi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximus778

120 acre hit gained about 75 honor in war... Get op'd 20 times Lose 80 Honor... Takes longer to make another hit... but less time to make more ops which is unbalanced.

even at this rate you can be hitting every 10 hours for 7-8 honor/hour. 20 ops if broken down into stealth/mana is 10 ticks of mana+stealth. Your argument would acctually suggest an attacker gains honor at the same rate as a t/m.

And finally if

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maximus778

Attackers can only gain Honor from Traditional March

your attackers are only gaining honor via hitting your running really ****ty attackers. Every prov but a shell should be oping.
22-10-2015, 07:24
StratOcastle

No need for harsh tone. The OP is clearly frustrated but still shouldn't poke Bishop for a universal honor system. We all play by the same system.

And we shouldn't make it seem that attackers that don't op are in the minority. Persain, you run an organized kingdom that pumps and I'd imagine has relatively strict governance. Thus, your assessment of attacker effectiveness is based in your ability to lead and command of mechanics. Most aren't there. Your kingdom trusts that their sacrifices will be met by victories. If your answer is you have good people then the point is mute. Good people do good things, particularly as a team.

My opinion is that if you want to gain honor you should run a t/m or be fantastic. If I wanted honor I could pay attention and get it. The way you get honor as an attacker is to look at honor as a fluid investment. You have to take in more than you lose. The problems begin in kingdoms that are organized but ineffective. In other words, their control mechanisms are not working to improve the kingdom. They simply prove discipline. Example: wave means send out all your generals.

Out here in the field, meaning kingdoms where you're free, you can grab honor at your convenience. You have to contend with many more obstacles but to my mind this is where we learn independence. We can then take the gifts we have earned and apply them to teamwork instead of being a monoton like the majority. Organized kingdoms are often the death of imagination and adaptation. Once the plan is made the core gets sucked into another queue: opa/nw, bot, chat, chain, lower wages, congratulate the decision makers.

In the real world, let's say football; you have a head coach, a coordinator for each aspect, and a captain on the field. Each player has an assignment but it varies on how they assess the opposing team/player/scheme. Some players earn the right to follow their instincts. These are the people we should try to be if our love is core attacker.

In the war tier you have little room to move. But let's not be discouraged. My point is not profound, but to simply play like you're a cow.
22-10-2015, 18:02
Band of Horses

I think I may have figured out why Divinity farms out when whoring.
22-10-2015, 21:37
khronosschoty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Band of Horses

I think I may have figured out why Divinity farms out when whoring.

Because they are not _that_ good? Or why?
22-10-2015, 22:03
Band of Horses

Quote:

Originally Posted by khronosschoty

Because they are not _that_ good? Or why?

Well that, and read persian's post.
22-10-2015, 22:27
khronosschoty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Band of Horses

Well that, and read persian's post.

Could you link to his post?
22-10-2015, 23:09
Band of Horses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Persain

i've seen a CONQUEST cost a prince 500 honor and a trad march take over 1000. The reason t/ms gain so much honor and keep it is that they rarely eat hits/ops compared to attackers.

In your example fyi
even at this rate you can be hitting every 10 hours for 7-8 honor/hour. 20 ops if broken down into stealth/mana is 10 ticks of mana+stealth. Your argument would acctually suggest an attacker gains honor at the same rate as a t/m.

And finally if
your attackers are only gaining honor via hitting your running really ****ty attackers. Every prov but a shell should be oping.

Khrono- it's 3 posts above yours....
23-10-2015, 12:10
Persain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Band of Horses

I think I may have figured out why Divinity farms out when whoring.

We do "poorly" in whoring not because of that post(which i get where your coming from) but because we never put the requirements on our people that the whoring kds do. This leads to us either falling behind in gc/science mid-late age or simply being out of position when the "big" fights happen. Well at least thats whats happened the 2 times we took real shots at the top via HoH and Beastblood...though the age beastblood "farmed" us our entire plan that age was to intra trad march down our attackers and gain a massive bank advantage to leverage into a win. Since we couldn't gain enough land via that strategy our setup wasnt even designed to compete and thus was kinda doomed anyway.

As to the honor issue

Quote:

Originally Posted by StratOcastle

And we shouldn't make it seem that attackers that don't op are in the minority. Persain, you run an organized kingdom that pumps and I'd imagine has relatively strict governance. Thus, your assessment of attacker effectiveness is based in your ability to lead and command of mechanics. Most aren't there. Your kingdom trusts that their sacrifices will be met by victories. If your answer is you have good people then the point is mute. Good people do good things, particularly as a team.

this may be true but it doesn't negate the fact that attackers CAN gain honor just as fast if not faster than someone only doing ops. After my kds last war for example i was top 20 world honor as an undead (4100 honor)...and i started out war as a peasant, something no t/m can do via ops.

The reason it FEELS like ops give so much honor is that MOST attackers hit oor into people that are being chained and thus taking someone from 2500->800 honor in 10-15+ hits feels like u gain nothing for each hit. But try hitting a high honor t/m during war who is in nw range, you absolutely take more honor/hit than any oping is going to give. Alternatively oping oor has the same reduction in honor that attacking does, its simply that the poeple who are oping tend to op people who are closer to being in nw range. T/ms and hybrids tend to gain the most honor via declare waves NS/nm/MS/riots....or oping in nw range shelled targets who have little offense left.
23-10-2015, 14:22
Zauper

To further Persain's point, a few ages ago I got razekilled during a war, and by the time I was 3 days OOP, I was #1 honor with 10k+ honor. I didn't attack anyone with more honor than baron.
23-10-2015, 16:50
2Utopian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zauper

To further Persain's point, a few ages ago I got razekilled during a war, and by the time I was 3 days OOP, I was #1 honor with 10k+ honor. I didn't attack anyone with more honor than baron.

Huh...? Am I missing something? This doesn't sound remotely possible. Even if you were getting out 3 uniques a day for those 3 days you would need to be claiming over 900 honor per unique which best case is like 30% of a top end barons total honor? I must misunderstand...
23-10-2015, 17:44
Persain

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Utopian

Huh...? Am I missing something? This doesn't sound remotely possible. Even if you were getting out 3 uniques a day for those 3 days you would need to be claiming over 900 honor per unique which best case is like 30% of a top end barons total honor? I must misunderstand...

4 hits at 2 hits/day in 3 days is 24 hits. 10,000-1800= 8200 honor. 8200/24 = 341 honor per hit.
5 hits at 3 hits/day in 3 days is 45 hits. 8200/45= 182 honor/hit.

Both of those seem reasonable, even if 341/unique is a tad higher than i'd expect at his size.
23-10-2015, 19:23
2Utopian

Yeah I did the same math. It sounds unreasonable. I happen to have had 2900+ honor and was hit last night with 0 gbp unfriendly <-> unfriendly by a province in range +-10% nw and close kd nw. I lost around 100 honor on the hit.
24-10-2015, 03:04
Persain

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Utopian

Yeah I did the same math. It sounds unreasonable. I happen to have had 2900+ honor and was hit last night with 0 gbp unfriendly <-> unfriendly by a province in range +-10% nw and close kd nw. I lost around 100 honor on the hit.

out of war 1 taped i went from ~4050->~3750 so around 300 honor. Honor gains in war are higher so its very reasonable
24-10-2015, 03:32
2Utopian

this isn't really worth arguing over, but one of the constraints was no higher then baron honor, and your example is a count. Also, if it was in war, yes honor gains are higher, but that would assume no hits and no ops on him in our scenario.
24-10-2015, 13:12
Zauper

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Utopian

this isn't really worth arguing over, but one of the constraints was no higher then baron honor, and your example is a count. Also, if it was in war, yes honor gains are higher, but that would assume no hits and no ops on him in our scenario.

It was in war, the hits on me were significantly OOR as I was just OOP hitting provs with sci/wiz/etc and size difference made ops painful -- I had about 50 thieves and no wiz, for obvious reasons.

I posted a thread about it in suggestions at the time that I'm sure you could dig up.

5 hits per unique, avian with high rax. Essentially, I was hitting their provs that we had razekilled pre-war that had grown quite a bit but were still 5xable, or chained provs, who were all OOR for me and hitting our chained provs for gains. To Persain's post, I was gaining about 180 honor per hit as a result. This is probably harder now that I believe honor gains are penalized when topfeeding.

I wasn't 5xing a single prov, I was splitting my hits over multiple provs to optimize honor gains.

At the end of the war, I finally entered nw range for their bottom prov and lost about 2k honor in a few hits, still ended war between 10 and 12k though.
24-10-2015, 14:20
Band of Horses

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zauper

It was in war, the hits on me were significantly OOR as I was just OOP hitting provs with sci/wiz/etc and size difference made ops painful -- I had about 50 thieves and no wiz, for obvious reasons.

I posted a thread about it in suggestions at the time that I'm sure you could dig up.

5 hits per unique, avian with high rax. Essentially, I was hitting their provs that we had razekilled pre-war that had grown quite a bit but were still 5xable, or chained provs, who were all OOR for me and hitting our chained provs for gains. To Persain's post, I was gaining about 180 honor per hit as a result. This is probably harder now that I believe honor gains are penalized when topfeeding.

I wasn't 5xing a single prov, I was splitting my hits over multiple provs to optimize honor gains.

At the end of the war, I finally entered nw range for their bottom prov and lost about 2k honor in a few hits, still ended war between 10 and 12k though.

And to this day you remain a prince in my heart.