So whats point of playing TM now?

Seems pointless since even heavy attackers can run enough tpa u cant be effective against them and plenty of wpa to make u ineffective also? Im running 8raw wpa, max sci and i fail like 7/10 spells on pretty much every attacker i go after these days. So i try to op them with thieves...running 10raw tpa 20% tds and max sci....fail at least 6-8 outta every 10 ops. On targets running 0 tds and 0 watchtowers. just seems like its pointless to play tm if every attacker has become highly immune to tms as it is. Science has basically screwed over TM;s very hard, before attackers had to work at getting a decent defence against TM's now 3 days into the age they are like like way better then the old hybrids ever was, able to run 200opa and enough 10tpa 8wpa pretty easy and not even be worried.

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

Seems pointless since even heavy attackers can run enough tpa u cant be effective against them and plenty of wpa to make u ineffective also? Im running 8raw wpa, max sci and i fail like 7/10 spells on pretty much every attacker i go after these days. So i try to op them with thieves...running 10raw tpa 20% tds and max sci....fail at least 6-8 outta every 10 ops. On targets running 0 tds and 0 watchtowers. just seems like its pointless to play tm if every attacker has become highly immune to tms as it is. Science has basically screwed over TM;s very hard, before attackers had to work at getting a decent defence against TM's now 3 days into the age they are like like way better then the old hybrids ever was, able to run 200opa and enough 10tpa 8wpa pretty easy and not even be worried.

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The problem this age was that wizard production was added to science making pumping wizards much easier. That combined with the high science income that let everyone max science very quickly made life hell for tms this age.
For next age wizard production will be guilds only again and the distribution of scientists will be slowed down, that means people will have to make a choice where to place their scientists.

Ya just not fun trying to get MS on a attacker running 200opa but still able to run 6-8mod wpa just seems like the devs did a really bad job of balancing around the new science. If u able to run that kinda opa, u should basically have a nonexistant wpa/tpa. But this round attacks dont sacrifice anything, insane offence,defence tpa and wpa

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

Ya just not fun trying to get MS on a attacker running 200opa but still able to run 6-8mod wpa just seems like the devs did a really bad job of balancing around the new science. If u able to run that kinda opa, u should basically have a nonexistant wpa/tpa. But this round attacks dont sacrifice anything, insane offence,defence tpa and wpa

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sometimes you just gotta try out new things or life would get boring. Utopia isn't perfect and if Utopia hands you lemons , you make lemonade. Once you figure out that your original mission isn't something you can accomplish, find something you can do. Be a support player for example. Aid your kingdom mates to make them stronger than the opponent. Run an offense for support attacks such as razes and massacres. Anything is better than doing nothing.
And delight in the fact that this age is almost over and new challenges lay ahead.

One reason is to use one aspect of attacking to achieve all 3: marching, ops, sabotage.

In the past breaking certain provinces required strength of ops(meteors, etc) or sabotage(AW, NS). While marching may've achieved dominant status in this regard it can now be considered the venue to open the other 2. By concentrating support in all 3 aspects of province breaking you offer yourself the best chance at victory from a warring standpoint.

Goodwitch mentioned the other reasons if you live by the 'war is won before it's fought' idiom.

Lot of bs claims there op

OP, what race are you? If you're playing fairy, you can't be surprised at your difficulty because you have no innate bonuses to WPA or TPA.

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

Seems pointless since even heavy attackers can run enough tpa u cant be effective against them and plenty of wpa to make u ineffective also? Im running 8raw wpa, max sci and i fail like 7/10 spells on pretty much every attacker i go after these days. So i try to op them with thieves...running 10raw tpa 20% tds and max sci....fail at least 6-8 outta every 10 ops. On targets running 0 tds and 0 watchtowers. just seems like its pointless to play tm if every attacker has become highly immune to tms as it is. Science has basically screwed over TM;s very hard, before attackers had to work at getting a decent defence against TM's now 3 days into the age they are like like way better then the old hybrids ever was, able to run 200opa and enough 10tpa 8wpa pretty easy and not even be worried.

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Are you asking for help to improve your skills or just venting?

Im a fairy with 8raw wpa max sci. And 10raw tpa with 20% tds and max sci. And i fail 6-8 outta 10 ops on a undead/orc who are at 2000acres and 350k networth, so there nwpa is horrible but they can still have so much wpa and tpa cause sci is so broken and easy to get. How can u justify a orc/undead having 200+opa and enough wpa tpa to stop a faery from getting ops off on them on a fairly constant basis.

Basically they can break anyone they want, but are also very well protected from tm's just becuase of sci being a joke.

For the love of Mehul people, it's faery.

Carry on.

Help him Zauper, I see you.

My tactics are kitchen sink stuff. If I couldn't break them with thieves or wizards I'd attack. Don't laugh, it works.

I'm playing h/r full t/m. The only reason I'm failing ops is because the enemy has tons of wts and/or CS. With spells after some aw nothing is too difficult :).

Given that everyone can max science, and faery has no innate bonuses to WPA or TPA, you really don't have that much more TPA/WPA than any decent attacker. That's the drawback of faery. If you wanted to cast meteor showers, you should have gone Elf. Regarding theivery ops, do you know how many theives to send? You're likely oversending, which leads to failure + dead theives. I'm running Human/Sage w/ max science, but only 3 raw TPA. I have no trouble kidnapping/robbing vaults from other attackers. I can night strike some people with really low TPA.

Supporting your team.

From the final changes announcement:

Scientist Recruit rank reduced from 6 hours to 3 hours
Scientist Spawn rate lowered slightly
Magic Science will no longer increase Wizard Production
Approximately +50% Scientists will be required to reach maximum effects (We want there to be a strategic choice as to what science effects you have by reducing the spawn rate & increasing required scientists to reach max)
Revelation will increase scientist spawn rate by 30%, down from 100%
Revelation duration will be lowered

These changes along with sage being weakened should allow a specialized thief/mage to have better success.

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Originally Posted by AquaSeaFoam

From the final changes announcement:

Scientist Recruit rank reduced from 6 hours to 3 hours
Scientist Spawn rate lowered slightly
Magic Science will no longer increase Wizard Production
Approximately +50% Scientists will be required to reach maximum effects (We want there to be a strategic choice as to what science effects you have by reducing the spawn rate & increasing required scientists to reach max)
Revelation will increase scientist spawn rate by 30%, down from 100%
Revelation duration will be lowered

These changes along with sage being weakened should allow a specialized thief/mage to have better success.

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This ^^^^

Science might actually have a place in the game this age since not everyone will have max sci by year 4. This will mean that T/Ms who focus thief/mage sci will have significant advantages early/mid game over attackers.

Also, to OPs point, when was the last age when there wasn't a single prince honor rank achieved? That is a little ridiculous, even with the relatively 'short' age this age.

I just noticed you're a mod to. Very cool.

Communication makes....communication, cooperation and opportunity make all personalities and races viable.

Envision yourself a pusher. You have a core of attack addicts. Be the candyman: if they think they have a good time attacking, wait till you try this stuff.

They'll bend over backwards for you. Need a massacre to shower some nightmare? You'd do it for free if you could.

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Originally Posted by chubtubdaplaya

If you wanted to cast meteor showers, you should have gone Elf. Regarding theivery ops, do you know how many theives to send? You're likely oversending, which leads to failure + dead theives. .

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This.

On top of what everyone else said, you have to be fluid with your tpa/wpa numbers. What worked last age may not work this age. If attackers, like myself, have 13 mod wpa, you need to run more. If they have 10 tpa, you need to run 30. I'm not surprised that you fail a large amount of ops, since a lot of attackers are running super high mod wpa/tpa this age.

What I'm trying to say is just because 10 tpa was enough last age, doesn't mean it is good enough this age. Things vary from age to age and you have to adapt. Our faes and halfers were able to op just fine, because we ran much higher raw number than the "norm".

A lot of those issues should be fixed next age, as ASF said. But keep in mind, you always have to adapt to the game. If you expect to do the same exact things age after age, you won't be very successful.

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Originally Posted by Shockwave

On top of what everyone else said, you have to be fluid with your tpa/wpa numbers. What worked last age may not work this age. If attackers, like myself, have 13 mod wpa, you need to run more. If they have 10 tpa, you need to run 30. I'm not surprised that you fail a large amount of ops, since a lot of attackers are running super high mod wpa/tpa this age.

What I'm trying to say is just because 10 tpa was enough last age, doesn't mean it is good enough this age. Things vary from age to age and you have to adapt. Our faes and halfers were able to op just fine, because we ran much higher raw number than the "norm".

A lot of those issues should be fixed next age, as ASF said. But keep in mind, you always have to adapt to the game. If you expect to do the same exact things age after age, you won't be very successful.

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THis is 100% the problem, a attacker running 13wpa, but im sure u still have enough offence to break any1 your size including full defence tm's. THIS IS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE. Attackers HAVE To have a weak spot just like TM's do. If TM gets hit it hurts abit cause we cant gain land back instantly from a grab, but this age attackers are able to run crap like 13wpa and 10tpa and still run 200opa thats is complete and utterly dumb. Attackers need to a weakess.

And for all u saying op is dumb, look what he just posted 13WPA thats just dumb, in past ages if a attacker got to 13wpa he couldnt break any1 his size cause he sacrifice so much to get it. Not anymore, with offensive numbers like they are, they can run 200opa 13wpa and 10tpa and not even blink a eye while still having 90% BE. As a TM im running roughly 25wpa 30tpa modded and still am breakable by undead orc my size while having hard time maintain 80% BE. And like said, failing ops on them.

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

THis is 100% the problem, a attacker running 13wpa, but im sure u still have enough offence to break any1 your size including full defence tm's. THIS IS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE. Attackers HAVE To have a weak spot just like TM's do. If TM gets hit it hurts abit cause we cant gain land back instantly from a grab, but this age attackers are able to run crap like 13wpa and 10tpa and still run 200opa thats is complete and utterly dumb. Attackers need to a weakess.

And for all u saying op is dumb, look what he just posted 13WPA thats just dumb, in past ages if a attacker got to 13wpa he couldnt break any1 his size cause he sacrifice so much to get it. Not anymore, with offensive numbers like they are, they can run 200opa 13wpa and 10tpa and not even blink a eye while still having 90% BE. As a TM im running roughly 25wpa 30tpa modded and still am breakable by undead orc my size while having hard time maintain 80% BE. And like said, failing ops on them.

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OP is dumb. He's whining about attackers having high WPA, but fairy has no WPA advantage over any attacker. He can likely cast spells like fireball easily. He's only struggling with hard spells like meteor showers because he didn't pick Elf. Think of it like this- if a fairy could easily cast the hardest spells and ops, there would be no point in going halfling or elf.

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Originally Posted by HerpNDerp

Also, to OPs point, when was the last age when there wasn't a single prince honor rank achieved? That is a little ridiculous, even with the relatively 'short' age this age.

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This has nothing to do with science, wpa, tms beeing dumb... this is because of the honor gain/attack OOW from topfeeding. You can see that for few ages Honor crown is won by whoring and not by warring. All those TMs who gets close to prince are getting vultured after war easy and ops honor gains oow is not a match to attacking.

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

THis is 100% the problem, a attacker running 13wpa, but im sure u still have enough offence to break any1 your size including full defence tm's. THIS IS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE.

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It isn't how it is. Attackers do not have unlimited space, if their wpa increases their army drops, or they tank their BE and peasants.

well to be fair bishop he do have a small point, with the heavy tilting of numbers toward offence vs defence its easy for a lets say strong attacking race to keep a high offence / low defence so vs the tm he can still hit them while due to alot of things said here keep a high fail rate vs ops done on him, the tm is defently underpowered vs attackers, and if you dont play in a top kingdom whre focus is to keep the tm bigger then the core then they will be easy taken out.

So even tho he whines alot he is pretty much spot on.

Tm us useless out of war also, something i think needs to be fixed.

oooh and i forgot the point of tm is, well godness towards your kingdom to help them out, its defently nothing to do with personal goals, as tms cant keep honor, cant keep land (unless in top 3 kingdom) and cant do **** with ops (other then steal) 70% of your age.

Not many of the owners nor the admin play tm so in basic they got no clue they think its fine, buts its far from "fine".

So ye play tm to support the kingdom, take the beating and sit back do nothing most of age.

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Originally Posted by Mike^

well to be fair bishop he do have a small point, with the heavy tilting of numbers toward offence vs defence its easy for a lets say strong attacking race to keep a high offence / low defence so vs the tm he can still hit them while due to alot of things said here keep a high fail rate vs ops done on him, the tm is defently underpowered vs attackers, and if you dont play in a top kingdom whre focus is to keep the tm bigger then the core then they will be easy taken out.

So even tho he whines alot he is pretty much spot on.

Tm us useless out of war also, something i think needs to be fixed.

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Forts, homes, mil sci and mp+gp stacking were all direct defensive buffs we improved in recent ages. In comparison we haven't modified the offensive buildings in years. I do not buy the argument that t/ms are useless in or out of war. WPA was definetly easier for attackers to get this age sure, and i did warn people that this would be an issue, but its not insurmountable.

Also my point stands, attackers running higher wpa means they are sacrificing troops or peons.

This age was by far the toughest I can remember as far as casting. frustrating, yes of course, but at no time were our TM's useless.
I am not sure why or when TMs started wanting to claim a starring role. TMs are support and should be. An important link in the kingdom, but in the end army wins the war.

^^thats last part says it all. Tms are for support. Support your attackers the best way possible. Even if you can't cast certain ops successfully, there's always other that should be easier and still helpful.

I remember a few ages ago, we had a mystic that was barely breakable, and got massacred quite a few times on 3k acres such that he couldn't land ops anymore. 4 days later he was 10k acres with 150-200k peons and won the war with the economy he gained from getting massacred.

One of the things that makes utopia interesting is how you respond to changing circumstances.

Totally agree with the science observation, when max science is no longer a given attackers will not have great science in thievery and magic and thus the t/m's who will max out those categories first will have a considderable edge science wise on top of their tpa and wpa advantage.

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Originally Posted by cRs

This has nothing to do with science, wpa, tms beeing dumb... this is because of the honor gain/attack OOW from topfeeding. You can see that for few ages Honor crown is won by whoring and not by warring. All those TMs who gets close to prince are getting vultured after war easy and ops honor gains oow is not a match to attacking.

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Even with the rampant topfeeding, there are still usually prince honor ranks achieved at some point in the age. It wasn't, once. Attackers were, relatively, much more resistant to T/Ms this age than in past ages due to wiz training speed and how quickly attackers were able to max science. I think that the science, combined with the topfeeding, really put a damper on honor ranks this age (except for emeriti and all of their bottom feeding gloriousness of course...smashing every single high-honor TM they can find in every war kingdom that comes out of EOWCF )

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Forts, homes, mil sci and mp+gp stacking were all direct defensive buffs we improved in recent ages. In comparison we haven't modified the offensive buildings in years. I do not buy the argument that t/ms are useless in or out of war. WPA was definetly easier for attackers to get this age sure, and i did warn people that this would be an issue, but its not insurmountable.

Also my point stands, attackers running higher wpa means they are sacrificing troops or peons.

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Dont need to boost offensive buildings when u give attackers 4-5more point offence elites while Tm's got +1 defence.

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

Dont need to boost offensive buildings when u give attackers 4-5more point offence elites while Tm's got +1 defence.

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You basically just repeated his point. Raw offense has risen, but so have def mods. No one was ever truly ub before and to even more of a degree you just have to run the right numbers to play effectively. If someone doesn't know what those are then hey it's a game. Play around a bit until you figure it out or ask kd mates.

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Originally Posted by Raged0411

Dont need to boost offensive buildings when u give attackers 4-5more point offence elites while Tm's got +1 defence.

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Attackers get more offensive elites than t/ms get defensive elites, that's because (mainly) t/ms dont have to run offense and can throw all those troops at wpa/tpa and more defense.