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Proposed changes are here!
Please use this thread to provide feedback (or other suggestions) on the currently posted changes (keep an eye on the changelog at the bottom of the post for any changes that might be made to the proposed changes post).
You can find the announcement here:Age 82 Proposed Changes
What are the undead duns decay rate ?
Feedback: why do you keep trolling every age with this kind of stuff?
I have to echo this. Every time, there are a few races that are clearly miles ahead of the other races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenger
Dwarf not being able to use WT is a huge penalty and makes them unplayable if not compensated by some huge benefit, which they currently don't have.
Like most other times its the same STUFF with some minor non relevant tweaks and peaks.
Game is dying and your feeding us boredom.
Ever since this nerd passive sci system has been around most racial bonuses don`t mean much ****.Why not at least make things interesting ,you know to keep players around and not shrink every age.Add some +income here +BE there etc
Avian,dwarfs and undeads feel short this age in comparison with other races like humans and orcs, why not BUFF STUFF for a change instead of nerfing. -gains and + casualties on the same races doesnt play well anywhere. What is this abomination of a dwarf, whats it ment to do ? Why so many penalties for undead ,remove some, add more buff to others and in general enough nerfs balance stuff with bonuses for a change.
Tact aswell , one of the least picked personalities , why the need to nerf to it .just remove it.
Can`t we have some more options ?It feels like every age ppl are pushed towards a niche of stuff they gotta pick which is same as an age before and before.
#bring back as an ADDITION : Dark Elfs,Gnomes,Sages,Sheppards,Freaks
Why do you hate dwarf so much?
Also, it’s a shame that +1 ospec was taken away from both Human and Warrior, especially when Elf gets +1dspec and +10% ME. Sounds like we’re gonna have a lot of tough to break elf T/Ms.
Finally, why does Rogue (supposedly the pure thief pers) get better guilds than Heretic (the T/M hybrid)? It makes no sense, even with that +20% TPA/WPA slapped in. Rogue is so much better than Heretic (more ops, more stealth, better buildings) than I frankly can’t see a lot of people going Heretic.
Oh, one more thing: I hate the forced CF changes. I don’t enjoy being forced to fight a (slightly) larger, more organized KD. It’s gonna be great for the top 20 or so, but the rest is probably going to quit when they’re endlessly chained with no way to stop it. Do you really want less players playing this dying game?
Because they're not real changes. Stop reading too much into it.
I also feel like these changes are just trolls, at least many of them. I don't see these changes as really constructive for feedback. I have to believe you know some of them are unplayable. Why waste our time?
75% of the kingdom expected to attack, 75% of the races should at least be viable to attack with.
Mystics kinda need Revelation too.... they need it more than rogues due to the nature of how slow Wizard train is....
Speed the game up. A base attack time of 16 hours leaves alot of down time while waiting for army to return. The speed up genesis rounds were actually fun. The game server doesnt need to be that fast, but give people a reason to log in a few times a day to keep army in/out.
Play Avian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless_1
Did not look to much into races since I'll be on a break for maybe a month or more but something does seem odd that some races got increased nw and cost for their elites while others got decreased cost and nw. Will probably pick Human/Something or Undead/Tactician when I do rejoin my kingdom if these changes goes through.
Oh and +1 Like to max button for science.
Also, what even is Warrior in these changes? Is that a typo to give them no real bonuses and duplicate the WH training time bonus?
i was just thinking to have combination of kingdom with elf/mystic + elf/heretic + elf/rouge with this changes :)
You have ns crew that can do support spells, nightmare crew, and ms/fireball crew. What more you need with +1 def spec and 10%me.
Avian seems to be a bit on the weak side with the added losses.
Dwarf lacking access to WT's seems a bit too much in terms of a drawback. Unless of course you never go to war. but that sounds somewhat boring as well.
Ghost workers - Seems like an obvious Undead spell rather than a Human spell..
Undead - Is prisoners decaying to soldiers really a bonus ?
Paladin's Inspiration - Retire this spell ? Paladin no longer exists.. normal inspire army does much the same..
I guess dwarf’s no WT makes sense if you’re playing a dwarf thief, which is not farfetched. But I don’t understand the reasoning behind straitjacketing the most versatile race into a specific role.
I agree on Ghost Workers being more of an Undead thing. Or maybe Dwarf, what with the BE bonus.
And I think Undead’s prisoner conversion is actually a bonus. Why wouldn’t it be? Soldiers are much more useful than prisoners. Also, Undead is vulnerable to fireballing and they can’t kidnap back, so this is a way for them to trickle some peons back.
Faeries is kind of too strong with a super low NW high value 8 point elite, might make them too hard to break inside NW for attackers.
Avian:
Lore: The stats are mostly aligned with a flying attacker. I dont agree with a penality to combat gains.
Elites: The NW value on the elite is too high, but otherwise the stats and cost seem appropriate.
Spells: Clear sight would make sense more than bloodlust.
Verdict: Average
Dwarf:
Lore: Lets try to focus on usefull building orientated bonuses... raze cost reduction seems trivial. Maybe remove that and increase building efficiency further.
Elites: Great sturdy beserker but feel like 7/5 was better, even 7/7 would not seem too strong here.
Spells: Reflect Magic seems fitting for dwarf. Building WTs makes more sense than Clear Sight. Ghost Workers would make more sense on Dwarf/Undead than on any other race. Miner's Mystique was great fun.
Verdict: Weak, but i like the idea of a race that is easier to thieve from. Dwarf seem like a good choice for this, I just don't think the dwarf bonuses compensate the penalty.
Elf
Lore: Stats seem aligned with a powerful magical type fighter. Explore penalty seems trivial, and perhaps increased military wages would be more fitting.
Elites: NW cost seems too high.
Spells: Happy enough... But could be more 'fun' sounding.. like +20% damage on fireballs / tornado... something fun =)
Verdict: Strong
Faery
Lore: Seems to be classic Utopia faery all spells we like this option. Population and general penalty seems fair trade off.
Elites: Cool high defensive elite, but the NW seems a bit too low.
Spells: Having the reduced mana cost to cast all of those spells seems a little OP now.
Verdict: Strong
Halfling
Lore: Seems like our typical halfling geared towards thievery. Why are halfling soldiers stronger than anyone elses soldiers? just.. lol..
Elites: seems OK maybe slightly too high NW.
Spells: Invisibility would not be out of place - although seems unfair to then in turn give that to Faery too.
Verdict: Average
Human
Lore: Whats up with +10% defensive TPA LOL. Why??? Income immunities/bonus and science bonus should focus.
Elite: "Knights" ... 4/7 ? thats not right... and 10.25gc for those stats? way too expensive. Maybe make their stables/horses more powerful..
Spells: Why Ghost workers??? Lets give them more science spells. Quick Feet is cool though.
Verdict: Weak
Orc
Lore: Seems like a great heavy attacker that doesnt care about magic and thievery. The enemy casualties seems like a fitting bonus. I think increased self casualties would be a fitting penalty too. Free draft is so strong - especially with a KD full of them all soldier aiding each other to mitigate fireball damage or whatever. Maybe a penalty that hinders aid in and out of orc provinces would be something that seems like a careless orc would suffer from.
Elite: strong elite for relatively low NW cost, fairly easy to ambush. Seems 'orcly' enough to me.
Spells: Bloodlust might be fitting
Verdict: Strong
Undead
Lore: The science penalty is fitting, and the non trainable elites are a cool mechanic. I would like to see their combat losses decreased even further though. Prisoners turning into elites would be a bonus and would be a lot of fun also.. like 5% prisoners convert to elites each tick. Prisoners turning into soldiers is a penalty lol...
Elites: 11/4 seems cool and appropriate for the difficulty in obtaining them and somewhat compensates for the lacking specialists.
Spells: Nightmares and Ghost Workers would be appropriate.
Verdict: Average
Warrior - needs something to make this better... Combine it with Tactition maybe?
War Hero- really looks too powerful now.
The point of the thread is to provide input.
RACES
Avian
Generally needs a boost. After losing +1 def spec, and even with the 9 elite, i would remove the -10% gains. Or give them CS (since they fly?)
Dwarf
Pretty unplayable. Can't deny them WT. Deny them forts if anything. I'd also give them a +1 general.
Elf
Buffed. Leave them as is.
Faery
Surprised they didn't receive a nerf. Leave them as is though. I am suggesting balance with buffs to other races.
Halfer
Only viable as rogue really (or mys). To make them viable otherwise, i;d give them something wild like fireball immunity?
Human
Give them back the 5/7 elite. And buff to 20% sci eff
Orc
Solid but give them 20% enemy casualties. They're too squishy as is.
Undead
Are they able to train elites or not? You remove the cant train elites line but left elite cost as N/a.
Let them train elites, at 2k per elite, but increase sci penalty to 40%
Personalities
Generally speaking, not alot of change here. I recommend a few big buffs.
Warrior give -50% wages
WH give 1500 elites at start
Artisan 40% income (only really playable for the 5-10 players looking for prov crown)
Try to make some races good early, while other (humans) better late. That diversity allows for strategic decisions.
Came here to post this. Warrior is useless. Also, removing forced CF is gonna result in alot of people being forced into fighting unwinnable wars. Going to cause alotta rage quitting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andurilas
I enjoy a global buff to elite offense but if you are going to remove warrior +ME, then should remove WH +OME in war.
As some others have said, seems silly master builders losing access to build a building (dwarf & WTs) even if it wasn't that important.
Elf is nice to have the option of whatever it wants to play.
What's human's identity? Some are saying cow but I thought cowing was discouraged.
I really like the power of Orc and Undead. Avian with bloodlust can produce similar offense but their sustain I don't think compares due to extra military losses.
At this point I am confused about heretic; mystic and rogue get building increase effectiveness but heretic get the increased wizzie/thief per acre. etc etc. Heretics seem like wannabe one or the other.
if warrior won't get +ME because global elite offense value, then perhaps they get +gains since races don't have it and can't double up on it.
Some people are really hating on the force CF changes and I think they aren't too terrible. KDs under 85% can force, nothing says they have to.
if my kingdom is 95% of your nw you hit us going all out and we don't fight back we'll eventually be below 85% in a day or two and can force cf.
The only problem is if you get learn waved your nw drops less, but shelling your opponents with ops and offering cf is still avalible strats.
I think the mechanic for undead prissoners need a backstop of some kind since soldiers counts towards max pop while prissoners do not so in case of overpopped provinces this has the potential to lead to a kill, something similair as with wizards would be good or even the possibility to turn off the conversion so they can be used as more powerfull mercs or as ecconomy boost depending on individual needs.
When did this game lose balance? I know I have been away for about 15 years so have missed a lot, but what happened? When did elites become Marvel Comics super heroes? 11 offense for an elite? WTH!?!
A high networth per acre used to be like 160, 170. Now there's 300 nwa? Holy 'roid monsters, Batman! LOL> COME ON!
Why does everyone and their mother have an 'effective' TPA/WPA of like 4 million?
The goal used to be to SURVIVE the age. Thieves ruined the age for mages. Mages FB'd attackers into submission. Attackers massacred thieves to the point of needing to release thieves back into the population.
I don't care what changes you do, just have them make sense please. A dwarf can't have a watch tower? He lives in a CAVE! You have to go THROUGH a tunnel to get to his home. One would think that a trespasser would be noticed!
Get back to balance being 'I have what you don't'... elves cast spells on mates. Nobody else can do that, but elves can't fly, so no avian attack time bonus. There's the balance.
Undead regenerated loses because the are UNDEAD. Cast an animate spell, and poof, you're army is back. Undead don't 'train' anything, they create them. Undead elites are stronger undead, they're not zombies that went to war college. Nerf this 'can't create elite' crap. It's silly.
Give the +1 mana per tick back to the Faery where it belongs. Give the humans back their revelation.
Give each race just ONE penalty. Just buff them out evenly. Balance comes from play. The more organized kingdom wins. And for heaven's sake, get rid of the super man elites. 7 max stat on an elite.
I'm not trying to rant. All in all, I like many of the changes. I see no need to returning to the days when you needed a notebook beside you with a target list. I would just like to see game return to balance like it used to be. Making changes for the sake of making changes is pointless. Have a reason.
Thanks :)
I agree. I think I enjoyed playing genesis more. 6 ticks an hour would be really fun on the main server, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless_1
Something happened to Warrior..
Give it back some +ME% or an extra General to make it at least mildly interesting
gonna propose a new category of bonuses/penalties to spice things up a bit because it gets boring moving around the same old ones...
so what about adding to some races different reactions to rituals such as (i didn't thought very much on balance, those are just examples):
bonus:
- orc has 100% extra effect from expropriation or onslaught
- faery has 50% more effect from havoc
or
penalties:
fae has 70% effect from expedient or afluent
etc etc.
imo would be good to pair bonuses with ritual that are used less frequently and penalties with top used ritual.
If your going to make lots of changes at least make them something which makes races able to play differently. In the end many have no real effect like the halfling prisoner bonus, as they still aren't a good attacker and they are forced into the same single role.
Figured I'd toss my 2 cents in.
Avian: my main problem with avian is not that it's out of balance (I'd need to see sims to know) but that it feels like its identity has shifted somewhat away from the "fast attacker" to the "burnout attacker". When I read its bonuses and penalties, my first reaction isn't "nice, I could see building a composition around avian speed", it's "holy **** avians are gonna burn out faster than a single parent working 3 jobs". The primary focus, intentionally or not, has seemed to shift toward their increased casualties, including a direct penalty, the gains penalty which is a penalty to casualties per gains, and balancing around bloodlust, which vastly increases casualties (yes I know the -gains is to offset the ambush protection but the point still stands). I'd prefer to see them stay as the fast attackers that fill in their land quickly but can't muster as much offense due to no horses. Also, seems like BL has needed to stay on them to let them keep up with the huge offense of orc, so I'll propose orc tuned down so avian can take a break from BL
-20% attack time
+20% BR
-20% military training time
+10% ME
-50% ambush losses
no horses or stables
-10% gains on attacks
8/2 elite 9nw 900gc
fanat, gp
Dwarf: just far too weak to be played. They need an elite that lets them keep up at least some, but also lets them tank up as is their way of things. I also like the idea of them having resistance to ops a la CS/RM, but especially with no WT it doesn't seem like they're actually that resilient. I'd also like to nerf faery further by keeping CS/RM out of their hands, so I'll propose this adjustment
+20% Building Efficiency
-40% Building Construction Time
-50% Building Raze Cost
+25% Building Credits from attacks
20% of enemy spells and ops fail
+100% food consumption
8/4 elite 10nw 1000gc
GP, IA
Elf: seems reasonable in general, but +10% ME and +1 dspec is way too much early age. I moved the 10% ME to avian to keep the dspec here. Also going to add GP to make up for that (worth discussing if elf should have casting on mates AND gp, but whatever)
+1 Mana Recovery per Tick
+1 Defensive Specialist Strength
Can Cast Self Spells on Others
+15% explore cost
8/3 elite 9nw 900gc
GP, MF, MA, Chastity
Fae: fine as is. Got buffed realistically but I'm removing CS and RM from it and going to tune BL down, and it also can't pair with +1 ospec warrior anymore.
Halfling: I just generally don't like the halfling no hospitals but it has attacker bonuses but a significant bonus is to homes which you don't normally want to run much as an attacker and also that means more troops to get the same military, but all those losses and having to retrain weaker per unit troops generally. End of run-on sentence, but yeah generally just doesn't feel like it has a clear identity of how it's really supposed to work its bonuses all together. I'm just gonna leave it alone other than to say I'm moving 2/2 soldiers to orc to go along with free draft.
Human: Not sure what +10% defensive TPA does, but in general human feels underwhelming. In order to keep up, without the warrior pairing, i think they either need +1 ospec back, or +1 ponies. -25% wages seems to be the go-to econ buff for them, which is fine so that they don't have insane eowcf. And science is a fine bonus too, but I'd like to move SI off of cleric over to human and force people to pick hu/cl if they want broadly applied SI.
+1 horses
+15% scientists generated
+15% books produced
-25% wages
-1% mana/tick
4/7 elite 9.5 nw 1000gc
QF, SI
Orc: Orc looks pretty nuts right now. It was already pretty solid last age, arguably the strongest attacker, and it definitely got buffed while other comparable stuff got nerfed (human for example). Its offense is just plain too high, especially with that extra 5% pop which feels pretty out of place. I'd move bloodlust back over to orc as well as tone it back down to its old values (10% OME, 10% enemy casualties, 15% own casualties), which again is an indirect nerf to faery too, which is probably needed. Could also see 8/3 elite here along with bringing back +gains.
Free draft
2/2 soldiers
+15% enemy casualties
20% spells and ops fail
+15% enemy spell and op damage
9/3 elite 10nw 1050gc
Bloodlust, aggression
Undead: Dunno how they will fare without seeing sims, but I just don't really like the conversions/can't train elites design. It forces spec penalties so it's not too broken early age, but that forces something like pop bonus so it's not garbage mid-late age, and in general it's just hard to reason about its balance. If people like it as is, then keep it like this, otherwise take out all of that and have something like the below. Also, not sure if prisoners decay into soldiers is a bonus or a penalty :shrug:. It's interesting flavor, but does it actually work well gameplay-wise?
-35% casualties
No food needed
Spreads plague
basic theivery only
-15% sci effect
10/3 elite 10.5nw 1100gc
AD, Chastity, Vermin
Artisan, heretic, mystic, rogue seem roughly ok (no idea about artisan, really but I'm not spending time on it).
Tact: Mostly seems fine, but I'd like cleric to be the pitfaller and war spoils seems like it naturally fits with tactician who can use the faster attack times to judiciously use WS when it can be lower risk.
-15% Attack Time
+20% Building credits (or just more siege sci?)
Accurate Espionage
+25% Siege Science Effectiveness
800 solds/creds
fanat, War spoils
Cleric: Not sure what this little bit of valor sci is doing there, but I kind of want to move it to WH anyway. SI is moving over to human and I'd like PF to land here and have cleric sort of own the casualties world in the personalities and leave science to artisan/human. I'd really like to put a touch more magic stuff like +guilds or channeling, or even add shielding here, but that's up to the devs whether they want that direction.
Immune to plague
-35% casualties
Support spells
800 solds/creds
IS, Wrathful Smite, PF, DS, AD
War Hero: Wow this seems super strong. But it seems a little weird that war hero has some strong sustain with extra credits and conversions, but then warrior gets a ton of training speed, which is oriented around sustain. I'd like to make WH the reload boss and warrior back to more hulk smash. Valor and heroism give extra ability to pop out troops quickly, as does PI, and +1 ospec is a nice base offensive bonus that doesn't feel too OP on WH because you're converting them either to offensive elites which you'd want already anyway instead of the ospecs, or to defensive elites which hits your offensive capabilities pretty hard. This also makes for a good dragonslayer personality (so maybe dragons might need +10% HP to compensate / make those capabilities that much more valuable). Also leaning toward removing honor bonus since it's so volatile on an attacker personality
+1 ospec
+30% valor and heroism sci
+20% spec creds in war
conversions
800 elites
PI (renamed to Hero's Inspiration)
Warrior: feels very weak in its current form. Sure you can train fast but the things you're training aren't strong enough with just this. I'm more inclined to make warrior the hulk smasher a la
+15% OME
+15% gains on massacres
full conquest access
-25% casuatlies on conquests
800 solds creds
Not sure if any spells land here
I'd like to see the science curve be less punishing. It would be nice to do something more interesting in science than just rainbow out 600k-1000k in every category by EoA
Really like all of it except confused on BL on Orc. 2nd highest elite and extra 10% OME. I may have had BL with 20%, but people freaked out. Even if this is 10%, it’s 10% on stronger elites. Using WH, free draft, free specs, free leets....I’ll think I can afford 15% casualties. I’d change this and take the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmrasArFeiniel
I hate to break it to you like this, but the halfling prisoner bonus is really good if you're attacking at some point. It adds a lot of offense, which is vital for a race that doesn't really pack a punch, and it's somewhat self-sustaining. I try to fill up with prisoners before wars for this very reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimpo
Why not? More houses mean more birthrate, which I can't get enough of since, as an attacker, I get fireballed more or less constantly. Also, more birthrate is good if you don't have hospitals and if you have cheap-ish troops to train.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmrasArFeiniel
Not to mention that more houses = more peons = more cash (or a higher draft = more troops).
That's kind of the point of Halfling. That's also why they get 2/2 soldiers and town watch. It's the cheap mass unit race.Quote:
and also that means more troops to get the same military
hu/cl with that penalty makes absolutely no sense. Humans can barely get enough mana to cast self-spells, nevermind support spells.Quote:
Human: (…) but I'd like to move SI off of cleric over to human and force people to pick hu/cl if they want broadly applied SI.
-1% mana/tick
Parentheses and exclamation points are mine. I don't understand why they get all these bonuses (BL, even if a toned-down version; more gains; stronger, free soldiers!) if they're already way too strong.Quote:
Orc: Orc looks pretty nuts right now. (…) I'd move bloodlust back over to orc (!) (…) along with bringing back +gains.
Free draft
2/2 soldiers (!!)
+15% enemy casualties
20% spells and ops fail
+15% enemy spell and op damage
9/3 elite 10nw 1050gc
Bloodlust (!!!), aggression (!!!!)
Add one vote to the "I like undead" tally.Quote:
Undead: Dunno how they will fare without seeing sims, but I just don't really like the conversions/can't train elites design. It forces spec penalties so it's not too broken early age, but that forces something like pop bonus so it's not garbage mid-late age, and in general it's just hard to reason about its balance. If people like it as is, then keep it like this, otherwise take out all of that and have something like the below.
I think it does. Soldiers have more value than prisoners, if only due to their versatility. And undead need more soldiers (actually, more peasants) to make up for the ones they can't kidnap.Quote:
Also, not sure if prisoners decay into soldiers is a bonus or a penalty :shrug:. It's interesting flavor, but does it actually work well gameplay-wise?
Killing dragons faster, in line with their support role. I also don't agree with the other changes.Quote:
Cleric: Not sure what this little bit of valor sci is doing there
lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by North Southland
Still want this idea for undead:
Undead
Bonuses
Prisoners decay over time to be reborn as soldiers (neat idea, would be bad if it does it when you're full already though)
Some specialists convert to elites on Traditional Marches
No food needed
Spreads and is immune to the Plague
+1 Offense Specialist Strength
Penalties
Only Basic Thievery Intel Operations available
-25% Science Effectiveness
-1 Defensive Specialist Strength
Can not train elites
Spell book: Animate Dead, Chastity, Vermin
Elite: Offense: 4 Defense: 7 Networth: 9.0 Cost: N/A
Soldiers: Offense: 1 Defense: 1
That would be more fun to me. Still wish they could make animate dead into a magical version of propaganda only as a fireball. that offsets the thievery penalties while making it so if they chose a magical sub option they could use it.
Edit: Or use my Queen's suggestion
We fight 5 days in Age 82 (Mon-Fri) then go to age 83. Hopefully a week will have better changes.
I'm being baited with lingerie pics to put this suggestion up. XD