FS vs ED: FS brings in out of hostile help?

[Darklove]

In age 5 you took over a province from another player that I had a NAP with and then broke the NAP and hit me. A couple of b1acksun's guys that I was friends with did sink you out. They were great friends; I didn't even have to ask for anything. I remember you had 11 rune farm multies that you used to amnesia me and we had to aw them out too.

I find your lies amusing, Yes i took over andres province as me and him are real life friends. No he had no nap with you or he lied to me. And no I did nothing to you but grab u. Wasnt until u feed yourself huge amounts of elites that i did new things to your province that then abruply died.

[protector]

I didnt misunderstand your post the 1st time around. I was just saying that, according to Nesta and the whatsapp convo, he didnt just justify it, he suggested it! Jeez...

I didn't see a whatsapp convo so I just replied to Silverfox. Jeez............

I dont know. We're pretty heavy on clerics while elfs have no reduced losses anymore. We're just old dogs trying to learn new tricks, and tho I dont see the point of dragged hostiles in warring tier, we adjusted our setup to fit just that bill after our brush in with FS last age.

The way I see it, our setup is BETTER fit for long hostile compared to FS. Our setup is also better fit for war then FS setup is. I think I would sum it up with that their setup is crap. We've played the NM heavy part so many times, when I look at FS it seems like its their first dance with it.

I meant with the quick declare using your offense bonus would probably hurt them more than a dragged hostile. In a dragged hostile perhaps their elf/faery heavy kingdom would have a chance while opping yours to reduce your troop count.
I also think their setup sucks ;p but nothing unusual for Loiso to run weird setups ;p

Now please stop trying to derail the thread and instead answer why BB authorized Pyro to wave ED into active 1v1 hostile to help FS.

Eh, open your eyes, I did already.

It's been posted here that Nesta said Bb approved them waving ED into hostile. It's convenient how no one in BB besides you and prot have authority to tell anyone to do anything yet you focused pretty hard on how a non-leader in Emeriti suggested that Bour raze after 3h if BB wouldn't respond to his cf attempt.

Wait, dorje isn't a leader anymore? Then why did he have so much to say last age in the diplo talks with Simians?!!
Either way, so if "someone" says that ASF said he likes hairy armpits, makes it true? ;p

And can whoever have these logs showing a BB member to approve of a double hostile, send them to me? The ones I see say no such thing, thats the ones Nesta showed me (convo between Nesta and someone from ED).

[Tedurur]

Nm, I think Im done posting in this thread :)

[silverfox]

I am so tired of this arguin i stoped posting, ill make one more rant, mostly cause I dont like how things between our 2 kd's have played out these last 2 ages and i would rly like to put an end to all this bs.

<cut for size>

I'm happy to concede that FS earned what they had at the time of ED waving, it was a fairly tenuous point and one I said I didn't know the figures for, I also don't know the history of who was likely to win/lose AWAR as I didn't follow it and most of what I know has been from skimming the threads on forums.

I've also said before that ED was in a far stronger position, I feel we have a much better setup and yes we had more troops etc. but at the same time it's not like we were coming along and raze killing a KD half our size just because we could.

If your refusal to CF was to "save face" then I don't really think there's grounds to ask for help & even assuming 18 hours attack time then ED took somewhere in the order of ~18 waves last age. So yes in a random conflict I would agree that asking for a large number of free waves would be wrong, but this wasn't just a random conflict. I also don't think there were any counter offers from FS (might be wrong)?

Lets say I agree that Parth caused all of last age issues, I don't see how refusing to war and refusing to CF with terms means you're "not acting stubbon". In the end people will care about this, it's already causing huge amounts of chat over what is and isn't acceptable, especially when your alliance seems to be bringing in old "rules" about what constitutes an active hostile and I'm wondering who brought that line of thinking up to try and cover everyones backs here.

I represent it as razekill because that's what I was told, words roughly to the effect when it started that "maybe we'll raze kill more provs", now maybe that was someone who was mistaken as I had chats with quite a few different people but that's what I have to go with.

You might not have a grudge vs. ED, but that's not really how these things work. Pounding a KD for 2 weeks gloating all the way through it and making threats about future ages and then totally flipping the rules on what is acceptable game play, calling in friends then saying "well ED took land and honour from FS so you should be happy". Even still you don't directly say that you asked for the double hostile, you skirt around it in a non-committal way which is left open to interpretation.

Changing the timeline puts things in a different perspective and makes it look better/worse.

The extra time wouldn't have done anything for em if it meant giving up a button. Your setup is better for a quick declare. I understand why they declined. I think 2 days with a guaranteed declare by them witthin 24h of button and no fort staring may have gotten you a war.

I didn't say honor isn't relevant, I said from whom they got it is. And it isnt :p everyone gets part of their honor in uneven fights, is it worth less?

Your key point doesn't really make a lot of sense tho. You reset a prov it has 1800 honor. Getting a knight/peasant killed actually boosts your kingdom honor.

The problem is that there was (again afaik) no counter offers. We can guess at what would have gotten a war and what each KD might have found fair, but all we know is that FS didn't offer up any alternative options.

I could bring up other very weak links to events happening around the same time, but I'm not really wanting to go into full tinfoil hat mode.

As above I'll agree that it's not very accurate to paint FS as having done no work at all for their honour, so probably doesn't have much bearing on the situation.

Pyro's was a full wave of maybe 3-4k acres!

I think Pyro took just shy of 9k acres from ED (maybe a few hundred acres +/-) since most provs had to send out a lot of elites to break elves with everything home so ended up getting hit 2-3 times.


============

Since everyone seems to be losing their s**t over things and no-one has told me to shutup so far (along with me doing best to find out what is/isn't considered info which shouldn't be public) I'm just going to YOLO:

<There's some chat where it seems Pyro tried to find out about last age and Parth gets blamed for everything, then we get:>

BB - Parth got what he deserved last age
BB - A long hostile after not accepting any kind of terms
Pyro - I have to go
BB - I did research on that situation last age before I suggested anyone do anything
BB - I found it was parths fault innitially for being too proud and it escalated from there
BB - You waste my time for 10 days or 2 weeks and I'm going to ask for something ridiculous too

Supposedly BB is a council member, names were removed but it's still in there with the part <WA name is typing a msg>.

I think the main issue here is who is enforcing what exactly? There's been an alliance war because ABS (just a random player in KD or were they leadership?) advised to raze to get a CF and then had their offers to repair the situation refused? Fast forward a few weeks and we've got someone who Pyro claims is BB council quite clearly saying they "suggested" someone does something (ie. double hostile ED for FS).

Now people are bringing in "rules" for what an active hostile is which appear to be years old, so I'm personally very confused as to what game mechanics we're all being forced to play by now and a bit perplexed at the seeming double standards/mixed messages coming from this fair play alliance?

Maybe I'm being a bit thick but the message I'm getting right now from reading this is that anytime ED doesn't want to war a KD they can sit and empty all troops and resources into them then say "oh btw we're not going to war here's a CF" and from that second the other KD [I assume regardless of when the message would be read] has 12(?) hours to lube up their rings for another KD to wave them...

[13nesta13]

Err lol, no?

Keep picking selective texts and playing around with it. I'm sure that works well for you.

Parth asked me for an honest answer if bb ordered my wave, I said no clearly (please see bolded). I said its simply because the group said we'll go in together and get out together of the Awar as one entity, and one member being powerplayed just when it ends didnt fit in my books, nor with the rest of the group.

Out of consideration that I had decent ties-ish with ED (dUK approached me to talk about it and I have met dUK irl last year), I told him I'll share sentiments shared in the AWAR group. Coincidentally it was a BB member, which I pointed out since only council members of each KD were invited to the whatsapp group. But it was a general sentiment shared across the chat, not just BB. I was in a rush catching a plane, so only had half an hour to diplo. The fastest way to me seemed to be to get some things across by copy,paste, unfortunately. I apologise if some idiots took what I copy pasted out of context and the inconvenience posed to BB. It was a nonchalant mistake and overlook on my part because while I made effort to clarify my stance, cut out names in the logs, AND told ED not to share (or even worse, take the logs out of context), that simply didnt work.

TLDR: BB does not dictate what I do with my 24 other members. Decision was made by me.

[00:56] <Parthenogenesis> hey.
[00:56] <Parthenogenesis> So whats up?
[00:59] <Parthenogenesis> nesta
[01:01] <NesTa13-phone> Here
[01:02] <Parthenogenesis> cool
[01:02] <Parthenogenesis> So what happened here?
[01:04] <NesTa13-phone> What happened was we are very pissed at kds who been capitalising on this awar to get their own gains. Smashing people right out of it wasn't cool. XXX did it to me and I was very mad. And I already thought his demands were ridiculous he took 8.2k in 1 wave and still demanded 3k further. When we had no troops no ****. Didn't like the cf deal they put on table and forced us to accept. Pure power play.
[01:05] <NesTa13-phone> And it seems u guys did same to fs and that they're stuck in the awar fight with us, we thought we should do our part
[01:05] <Parthenogenesis> FS did much worse to us last age
[01:06] <Parthenogenesis> And if you remember from the awar, their war vs emerati was one sided
[01:06] <Parthenogenesis> So they had a good chance to be in shape
[01:06] <Parthenogenesis> We also offered them a 2.5 days extension, ie a full fort, if they gave us button
[01:07] <NesTa13-phone> It was but why ask for 3 waves for cf? 3 waves is literally unheard of and that's bs
[01:07] <Parthenogenesis> When they exited their EOWCF, we were similar in size AND in NW. We had more troops, they had more thieves / wiz.
[01:07] <Parthenogenesis> Cause they BS'ed us last age
[01:07] <Parthenogenesis> They hit us for TWO WEEKS
[01:07] <NesTa13-phone> Even if caught pants down 3 waves is crazy
[01:07] <Parthenogenesis> Demanding 750 hp / day they spent on us to CF.
[01:07] <Parthenogenesis> So compared to what they done to us
[01:08] <Parthenogenesis> My outragous offer was actually very reasonable
[01:08] <Parthenogenesis> Dont you believe we are entitled to do back to them what they did to us?
[01:09] <Parthenogenesis> I have waved other kd's, and I assure you, we dont usually demand 3 free waves.
[01:09] <NesTa13-phone> U have to know I have no favoured strings to them nor u. And I don't know what u guys did to each other and what prior history. But fact is they're part of a group with me and they did stick their necks out with us throughout. Never mind they ended up in a 1 way war against emeriti that was totally unintended.
[01:09] <NesTa13-phone> So from where I saw it I had a duty to help against this powerplay against them
[01:10] <Parthenogenesis> Do you feel like you have fulfilled your duty now?
[01:11] <NesTa13-phone> I think if I were in fs spot last age, I might have done same? Am I misinformed or misinterpreted to me that you guys refused to cf?
[01:11] <Parthenogenesis> Last age?
[01:11] <NesTa13-phone> I did same to divinity
[01:11] <NesTa13-phone> Ya
[01:11] <NesTa13-phone> I hostiled them and they refused to cf nor diplo so I just kept going
[01:12] <Parthenogenesis> We offered them CF, sure. They knew we were ready to CF at -any- time. But they demanded 750 hp / day spent, and we were not willing to give that. This was a week in or so, adding up to over 5k honor.
[01:12] <Parthenogenesis> ie
[01:12] <Parthenogenesis> More then I asked for this age
[01:12] <Parthenogenesis> I have logs for it.
[01:13] <NesTa13-phone> I can't paste logs here without revealing nicks
[01:13] <NesTa13-phone> What's your sapp
[01:13] <NesTa13-phone> I'll crop some stuff and send u
[01:13] <NesTa13-phone> And that's from someone neutral
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:04] <Francis> hi
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:04] <Parthenogenesis> Lets wrap this up now before someone gets hurt, ok?
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:05] <Francis> ?
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:05] <Parthenogenesis> Lets just CF and we both can have another war this age.
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:05] <Francis> i dont see an offer here
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:05] <Parthenogenesis> CF. Thats the offer.
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:06] <Francis> obviously, 'just cf' isnt a real offer at this point
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:06] <Francis> you need to make A LOT more than that
[01:13] <NesTa13-phone> It's a bb council member
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> Thats just a joke. We'll cf now, and we can both walk away. You wanna keep this going, it will bore your kd, it will bore my kd, and you will have created a grudge neither side can walk away fronm
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> For what? You didnt wanna war on even terms, we didnt wanna war on your terms.
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> Fine
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> So be it then
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:08] <Francis> 750 honor point per day we spent on you, and you can get your cf
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:08] <Parthenogenesis> Yeah
[01:13] <Parthenogenesis> [11:08] <Parthenogenesis> And you know what Ill say to that, so
[01:14] <Parthenogenesis> He isnt neutral mind you
[01:14] <Parthenogenesis> BB and FS is close
[01:14] <Parthenogenesis> BB tried to mediate on FS behalf just a week ago
[01:14] <Parthenogenesis> Protector used to play in FS
[01:14] <Parthenogenesis> Anyway
[01:14] <Parthenogenesis> These logs I just pasted you is from last age. Me offering CF, francis demanding 750 hp / days spent.
[01:14] <NesTa13-phone> Number ending 2470
[01:15] <NesTa13-phone> Can u receive pic there?
[01:15] <NesTa13-phone> Or is it a bot
[01:15] <Parthenogenesis> bot
[01:15] <NesTa13-phone> What's your sapp then
[01:15] <NesTa13-phone> Or I'll send to duk
[01:15] <Parthenogenesis> Mine is +xxxx
[01:17] <NesTa13-phone> That guy isnt protector
[01:17] <Parthenogenesis> Fine with me
[01:17] <Parthenogenesis> Ask him for logs where they offered to CF for a wave then, I dont recall any such offer and its not in my logs with francis.
[01:20] <Parthenogenesis> I guess it could have happened at some point, or it didnt. I dont know. The 750 hp / day did very much happen, and my bid for them this age was a great deal cheaper.
[01:21] <Parthenogenesis> Either way
[01:21] <Parthenogenesis> the wave has happened
[01:21] <Parthenogenesis> Are we done now?
[01:21] <NesTa13-phone> I know f's and bb have relations
[01:21] <NesTa13-phone> Yea but I wasn't acting on any like I said
[01:22] <NesTa13-phone> Just solely on how things went down this age.
[01:22] <NesTa13-phone> Tbh I don't know how much impact 750 is and at which stage of age
[01:22] <NesTa13-phone> How much was it of your honor the final offer?
[01:23] <NesTa13-phone> I've never made deals based on honor so I can't judge how mean they were
[01:24] <Parthenogenesis> uh, Im not sure what youre asking, and nor do I remember exactely at what day they offered 750 hp / day spend. My feeling is that is was aproxemately one week into conflict.
[01:24] <Parthenogenesis> Meaning around 5k honor
[01:24] <Parthenogenesis> And Im guessing we were maybe 80k honor at the time?
[01:24] <NesTa13-phone> I'm asking so 750 a day and it was like 10 days so 7.5k?
[01:25] <NesTa13-phone> And that's like 9% your total?
[01:25] <NesTa13-phone> That'd what i was asking
[01:25] <NesTa13-phone> How much was the cf deal
[01:25] <Parthenogenesis> I dont think it was 10 days in. Ive seen they saying that on forums but I would have to cross reference my logs with francis from when hits started in main chan logs. I dont see it as relevant enough.
[01:26] <Parthenogenesis> My feeling is that it was roughly a week in, maybe.
[01:26] <Parthenogenesis> And at that time ofc, with us maxing the meter after a few days, they had allready taken quite a bit of land and honor
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> Is there any way you'll close it up with fs amicably because like I said, in a vacuum I do owe them a deed and also in a vacuum from what I see it's a very mean deal u put on the table and I just walked out of one so I feel strongly against it.
[01:27] <Parthenogenesis> They also ran massive amounts of massacres and AW, as well as multiple attempts of prov killing.
[01:27] <Parthenogenesis> You did a deed
[01:27] <Parthenogenesis> A pretty unjuste and big deed
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:25 am] Francis: It is a joke that he brings up on the table
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:25 am] Francis: Even the log he shows prove that
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:26 am] Francis: On second week he is still offering just a cf
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:26 am] Francis: And im not bringing the offer really
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:27 am] Francis: Im asking him whats his offer specifically
[01:27] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:27 am] Francis: And he only offers blank cf
[01:28] <Parthenogenesis> He isnt briging the offer really?
[01:28] <Parthenogenesis> Well then
[01:28] <Parthenogenesis> Then I didnt bring the 4k honor + one learn wave, really.
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:06] <Francis> obviously, 'just cf' isnt a real offer at this point
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:06] <Francis> you need to make A LOT more than that
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> Thats just a joke. We'll cf now, and we can both walk away. You wanna keep this going, it will bore your kd, it will bore my kd, and you will have created a grudge neither side can walk away fronm
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> For what? You didnt wanna war on even terms, we didnt wanna war on your terms.
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> Fine
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:07] <Parthenogenesis> So be it then
[01:29] <Parthenogenesis> [11:08] <Francis> 750 honor point per day we spent on you, and you can get your cf
[01:29] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:27 am] Francis: When you think a deal is worth 100 euro
[01:29] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:27 am] Francis: And ure offered 10 euro
[01:29] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:27 am] Francis: What counter offer do you make?
[01:29] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:28 am] Francis: 100 euro or 500 euro?
[01:29] <NesTa13-phone> [07/07 1:28 am] NesTa13: So your 750 hp a day was a overball offer?
[01:30] <Parthenogenesis> Listen nesta, Im not interested in this. He is so full of **** hes gonna float away soon. If youre interested, you can ask protector about our offer in their EOWCF. We offered extension vs a war.
[01:30] <Parthenogenesis> You can read the forums from today, before your wave
[01:30] <Parthenogenesis> Where we said we were willing to talk about solutions
[01:30] <Parthenogenesis> That the cost of CF mentioend four days ago was cheaper now
[01:31] <Parthenogenesis> Both me and helluva says it in the forums. They show NO INTEREST.
[01:31] <Parthenogenesis> And frankly, after last age, they deserve no quarters
[01:31] <Parthenogenesis> So my offer to you is
[01:31] <Parthenogenesis> Take your free wave. What I think of it is not relevant, cause I cant do anything about it anyway.
[01:32] <Parthenogenesis> And then we close a lengthly CF. EOA if you want, or at the very least yr 10.
[01:35] <Parthenogenesis> ED have no perticular bad blood with pyro from before. Now leave our very much active hostile alone. We took FS beating all alone last age, why shouldnt they do the same this age?
[01:35] <Parthenogenesis> Why shouldnt we be allowed to pay them back what they done on us? We have been more accomodating with cf offers then they were last age.
[01:36] <Parthenogenesis> Heres also from last ge
[01:36] <Parthenogenesis> age
[01:36] <Parthenogenesis> [11:53] <Parthenogenesis> Hey I got a question. We're obviously interested in moving on, so, lets for the sake of argument say we get into a war. What would you do?
[01:36] <Parthenogenesis> [11:56] <Francis> i consider what we have as a war already, it wouldnt be advisable to have 2 wars at once
[01:36] <Parthenogenesis> [12:19] <Francis> honestly, i dont really understand the fuss you create all about this, its very common practice in uto to make concessions
[01:36] <Parthenogenesis> [12:20] <Francis> considering escaping into a war seems quite extreme thing to do
[01:37] <Parthenogenesis> They claimed, as of last age, that a one sided hostile is to be considered a war.
[01:38] <Parthenogenesis> Do you notice a theme here? When they do something "its not really them bringing an offer" and when we do the same its outragous. When they run a one side hostile "its to be considered a war", but when they are at the other end of the stick they call in friends
[01:38] <Parthenogenesis> They stink of double moral, or rather no moral at all
[01:40] <Parthenogenesis> its pretty much the forums all over tho
[01:41] <NesTa13-phone> Sorry for slow reply I was busy boarding flight. I'm not flying far or long just 5 hours to China shall we chat again?
[01:42] <Parthenogenesis> Id rather we closed this down now.
[01:42] <NesTa13-phone> Trust me I rather we work out something 3 ways
[01:42] <NesTa13-phone> Like I said clearly I don't hate u or like fs on a personal level
[01:43] <NesTa13-phone> I'm talking 2 to 3 ways to do this but I assure u nothings going in in the next 5 hours while I fly
[01:43] <NesTa13-phone> Ok?
[01:43] <Parthenogenesis> Just open your eyes buddy. Cant you smell the smell of all this?
[01:44] <Parthenogenesis> Them claiming their offer last age wasnt an offer? And hence its an outrage when I make a high offer for cf?
[01:44] <Parthenogenesis> Its just a big load of crap coming out of them, and its led you to 2 vs 1 me

[jwuzi]

I'm still not sure what the reasoning is behind hitting into an active hostile.

Since they just got out of an EoWCF and were dodging ED? If the terms for joining the BB side was that the alliance would help gang bang against any kd who waves/hostiles a kingdom in the alliance, thats different than an alliance built around punishing Emeriti and friends no?

[silverfox]

Quite the coincidence that you've stayed silent through all of this, right upto the point where WA convo gets posted.

So you're saying Pyro just decided to double hostile ED as a favour to FS and the "general sentiment" across your alliances chat was that it's fine, which just happened to include some BB player and discussing it?

I don't think anyone so far has directly said flogger/protector asked Pyro to x2 ED, just that you said you spoke with someone on BB council who agreed with you, something you also state again:

"I said its simply because the group said we'll go in together and get out together of the Awar as one entity, and one member being powerplayed just when it ends didnt fit in my books, nor with the rest of the group."

I asked multiple times if any info wasn't allowed to be shared and no-one said anything to that degree, I've deliberatly tried to leave out names as I don't think running to the public waving logs around should be a go to option, but at the same time when there's little else left to say and a convo requires them then there is little other choice (and seems to have worked in the sense of you now posting your side which seemed would never happen).

I agree with what Ted said before, there is far more focus on BB when it was Pyro who actually made the wave, but I guess that is to partially be expected as they're in a similar position to what ABS was accused of.

All I see right now is an alliance was formed to get revenge on ABS for percieved wrong doing, ED stays neutral and then once the alliance has finished up with ABS then they start powerplaying random KDs, bullying them into CFs.

Parth might be "happy" with the CF deal (doubt he had much choice), quite honestly I don't know his own opinion, but what I see is ED down ~9k acres and Pyro up ~9k acres plus some honour, FS refused to give any honour to ED so walk away without further losses and then BB (who I assume don't give a crap about honour) tie up the strings, all in all FS gets a CF and alliance gains on multiple fronts.

[lampost]

I don't see why we are so surprised over the 2v1 situation.

I guess its an improvement to the pyro/BB/whatever alliance in that this time it was only into an active hostile which is not as bad as a GB into a war. A slight improvement in their dirty play.

[13nesta13]

Nobody said we'll fk around our alliance members hostiles.

That was never the stance nor the intention. Case in point pandas is now at war, 1v1 (although some drama prior), we were waved for 11k out of 80k total kd land for a cf and that hostile is closed too.

Afaik fs also was willing to give up a wave to cf, but not succumb to powerplay. 3 waves is just ridiculous for a cf and parth admitted that part and that was offered due to grudge. When grudges are in play and our alliance mates are subjected to bully play its a whole different ball game than a regular hostile.

[SnirpsneR]

Per abs rules ed could've gotten waved like 5 times in the time between fs last retal and Nesta hitting.

Kinda funny abs changes when hostile is over whenever it suits them.

[Parth]

Err lol, no?

Keep picking selective texts and playing around with it. I'm sure that works well for you.

Parth asked me for an honest answer if bb ordered my wave, I said no clearly (please see bolded). I said its simply because the group said we'll go in together and get out together of the Awar as one entity, and one member being powerplayed just when it ends didnt fit in my books, nor with the rest of the group.

Out of consideration that I had decent ties-ish with ED (dUK approached me to talk about it and I have met dUK irl last year), I told him I'll share sentiments shared in the AWAR group. Coincidentally it was a BB member, which I pointed out since only council members of each KD were invited to the whatsapp group. But it was a general sentiment shared across the chat, not just BB. I was in a rush catching a plane, so only had half an hour to diplo. The fastest way to me seemed to be to get some things across by copy,paste, unfortunately. I apologise if some idiots took what I copy pasted out of context and the inconvenience posed to BB. It was a nonchalant mistake and overlook on my part because while I made effort to clarify my stance, cut out names in the logs, AND told ED not to share (or even worse, take the logs out of context), that simply didnt work.

TLDR: BB does not dictate what I do with my 24 other members. Decision was made by me.

First of all, I wanna adress WHY this leaked. You did not, like you claim, ask me to keep it between us. And also, you had just team tagged us, and as such I did not feel any loyalty to "protect my source" or anything like that.

Second, just because something is a part of a bigger dialogue doesnt automatically make it out of context. The context in the matter is you giving a backstory as to why you doubled ED. The pictures you sent was sent for the reason to provide me with relevant information in exactely that matter, and is presented as a "neutral third part, a BB council person". So while I agree our whole conversation is not included in any posts here, I fail to see how its been taken out of context.
The blame game on whats behind this (Pyro acting alone, BB advicing it, or the alliance) isnt so interesting to me - either way it started, it ended with a disturbance to my business with FS. But if, in the eyes of the community (if there still is one, I dont pay so much attention), a shadow falls on pyro or the feyr play alliance or BB, I guess thats just...fair.

[13nesta13]

Quite the coincidence that you've stayed silent through all of this, right upto the point where WA convo gets posted.

So you're saying Pyro just decided to double hostile ED as a favour to FS and the "general sentiment" across your alliances chat was that it's fine, which just happened to include some BB player and discussing it?

I don't think anyone so far has directly said flogger/protector asked Pyro to x2 ED, just that you said you spoke with someone on BB council who agreed with you, something you also state again:

"I said its simply because the group said we'll go in together and get out together of the Awar as one entity, and one member being powerplayed just when it ends didnt fit in my books, nor with the rest of the group."

I asked multiple times if any info wasn't allowed to be shared and no-one said anything to that degree, I've deliberatly tried to leave out names as I don't think running to the public waving logs around should be a go to option, but at the same time when there's little else left to say and a convo requires them then there is little other choice (and seems to have worked in the sense of you now posting your side which seemed would never happen).

I agree with what Ted said before, there is far more focus on BB when it was Pyro who actually made the wave, but I guess that is to partially be expected as they're in a similar position to what ABS was accused of.

All I see right now is an alliance was formed to get revenge on ABS for percieved wrong doing, ED stays neutral and then once the alliance has finished up with ABS then they start powerplaying random KDs, bullying them into CFs.

Parth might be "happy" with the CF deal (doubt he had much choice), quite honestly I don't know his own opinion, but what I see is ED down ~9k acres and Pyro up ~9k acres plus some honour, FS refused to give any honour to ED so walk away without further losses and then BB (who I assume don't give a crap about honour) tie up the strings, all in all FS gets a CF and alliance gains on multiple fronts.

Because I am not a forum whore like you and was only notified what was being discussed here a few hours ago so thought I should come in to make comment? Or because I'm naive to think my honest and straight up diplo wasn't going to be met in good faith and my words would not be taken out of context?

What I'm saying is clear above. The group doesn't interfere in hostile and never said it would. We discussed the cost of cf ED put on the table and each had their own conclusions. I had my own, and it coincided with that one particular BB council member, but not flogger or protector since they weren't actively chatting at the time I was active talking in the group.

My conclusion is its power play and I acted as such based on my conclusions.

[Parth]

Nobody said we'll fk around our alliance members hostiles.

That was never the stance nor the intention. Case in point pandas is now at war, 1v1 (although some drama prior), we were waved for 11k out of 80k total kd land for a cf and that hostile is closed too.

Afaik fs also was willing to give up a wave to cf, but not succumb to powerplay. 3 waves is just ridiculous for a cf and parth admitted that part and that was offered due to grudge. When grudges are in play and our alliance mates are subjected to bully play its a whole different ball game than a regular hostile.

I did not admit it! In our conversation, quite contrary, I claimed that I didnt really make the offer - as francis had told you he didnt really make the offer he made last age.
Both these claims are untrue ofc, but that might be a different story.

[Parth]

Because I am not a forum whore like you and was only notified what was being discussed here a few hours ago so thought I should come in to make comment? Or because I'm naive to think my honest and straight up diplo wasn't going to be met in good faith and my words would not be taken out of context?

What I'm saying is clear above. The group doesn't interfere in hostile and never said it would. We discussed the cost of cf ED put on the table and each had their own conclusions. I had my own, and it coincided with that one particular BB council member, but not flogger or protector since they weren't actively chatting at the time I was active talking in the group.

My conclusion is its power play and I acted as such based on my conclusions.

Im still having issues with your definition of out of context. You discussed the ED vs FS thing in your alliance group thing, you got support from the other members of the group....and when people post evidence of this on the forums as to whats behind this 2vs1 wave, its out of context? I think its perfect context?

[Gakundra]

As a somewhat biased person (having previously played in ED) but who doesn't really give a **** about much of anything these days. I find it rather convenient that in the "Pyro/BB/FS alliance" whatsapp group that everyone seemed to think that the terms of ED's request in order to CF FS was "unacceptable" (or something to that effect) and was asking too much. But at least as what I've seen shows, nobody seems to have considered that (from what I've read on the forums) FS made an equally ridiculous request of ED last age. (FS is at least to some extent the pot calling the kettle black)?

Notwithstanding that having played with Parth I know he can be stubborn as **** to deal with at times, if a kingdom decides that as part of their diplo they are going to be difficult they should expect to receive the same treatment back from their peers. From experience ED understands this and expects the same back in return when they choose to be difficult.

This means that when ED/FS are unreasonable in dealing with each other, they should each expect the other to be unreasonable in kind. What it doesn't mean is that when FS decides that they've been outplayed (in this instance, like ED may have been last age) they can run to their friends like a child, play it off as it ED is the bully, and act like a total hypocrite.

Kudos to BB for at least doing something to resolve this, and kudos to Parth for agreeing to act reasonably (which I'm sure for Parth was difficult).

But I'm sorry, Pyro and FS each look like children in the way this has all gone down. Nesta - if your "allies" get themselves into a crappy situation because of their own terrible diplomacy it looks pretty bad on you, running to their aid to help them act like hypocrites. FS - you just look like hypocrites.

Note: For the avoidance of doubt, I do not speak for ED, I have not spoken to anyone in ED about this, and I pretty much couldn't give a **** about basically all of you. But I repeat you're pretty much all acting like children. Except for Tedurur. That is all.