Even if they do not go all the way back to 7def leets, they could remove the +1 offspecs and give thems something more... T/M-ish. Now it is just a bloody abomination.
Dark Elf/Mystic
Elf/Mystic
Orc/War Hero
Gnome/Rogue
Orc/Warrior
Human/Mystic
Dwarf/Rogue
Even if they do not go all the way back to 7def leets, they could remove the +1 offspecs and give thems something more... T/M-ish. Now it is just a bloody abomination.
Go, Star Adder;
You are the stalker, the hunter, the killer.
Your prey stands before you;
Show them the way
of the True Warrior
--The Rememberence Star Adder,
Passage 5, Verse 17, Lines 20 - 24
Yes DEs should get either "All Spells" or "+1 Stealth", and a more defensive elite. They should definitely lose the +1 Off Spec.
imo, all this will do is make 1/4 the ghetto players choose this as full t/m, hurting their kingdoms by taking away another attacker, and then those provs will sit there and dise all age with huge defenseOriginally Posted by Bishop
With all of the current races, attacking is something that is always an option. So all those T/M wannabes have a chance of being swayed to attacking by whatever kingdom they land in, but with faery back, that kingdom is stuck with a T/M.
edit: we all know those ghetto noobs love going full T/M even though it is extremely weak nowadays, maybe if full T/M'ing were stengthened somehow without strengthening hybrids much, this might be a better option
The ghettos will still pick DEs and turtle T/M anyway, just that they cannot do it as effectively now. Even if you give them better off specs all they will do is attack weaker ghettos.
Go, Star Adder;
You are the stalker, the hunter, the killer.
Your prey stands before you;
Show them the way
of the True Warrior
--The Rememberence Star Adder,
Passage 5, Verse 17, Lines 20 - 24
Or they might choose to attack and try to war equally sucky ghettos, or just slightly worse ghettos. Why would you want to deter action between kingdoms? And with the current system, attackers still can manage enough offense to hit these useless T/Ms and to take their useless land.
So maybe the current system should be reworked to allow T/M to be a more useful and viable style of play. Not everyone has a hardon for attacking.
The problem with T/Ms is that thieves and mages are meant to be support roles from the ancient ages of the game. This was mostly back in the ages where you had the war meter, and attacking meant everything to winning the war. Eventually even without the meter KDs have come to terms with using the amount of acres and NW exchanged as an indicator for war.
If you make them too strong you risk turning the artillery into an ICBM, and it would make it pointless to play attacker relatively. And unlike attackers that will still eventually exchange acres, T/Ms will have trouble breaking each another when everyone waves their 6rwpa 6rtpa around.
Go, Star Adder;
You are the stalker, the hunter, the killer.
Your prey stands before you;
Show them the way
of the True Warrior
--The Rememberence Star Adder,
Passage 5, Verse 17, Lines 20 - 24
I'm actually going to have to change my answer from Orc/WH to Dwarf/Rogue, after rereading the question.
Because a kingdom of 25 Dwarf/Rogues would pretty much have their fate decided for them in war.
In the words of Admiral Ackbar: We can't repel failure of that magnitude!
S E C R E T S
Guess I should've worded the question more carefully :)
I was more curious if any of the 25 Human/Mystics or the 16 Dwarf/Rogues on the server would show up to vote for their ultimate power combos :)
Of course you're not a math major because you can't do any math. Take the numbers on an objective basis, inserting parameters for the subjective parts. For each race, total up your offensive unit power, then add some parameter A times its defense (however important you view elite defense to be) and then add some parameter B times your defensive unit power (again however important you consider practical defense to be), for A<B (because elite defense is worse than practical defense) and B<=1 (assuming you don't consider defense to be more important than offense; if you do then you're likely to be a tank who's not really looking for war).
Humans: 6+3A+6B
Elves: 6+4A+5B
Dwarves: 7+4A+5B
Orcs: 8+2A+5B
Gnomes: 1.15(5+4A+5B) due to +15% population
DE: 5+6A+6B (all elites) or 6+6B (half off specs)
Avian: 7+3A+5B
For human vs elf, 6+3A+6B ? 6+4A+5B reduces to B ? A. Since B>A, Human > Elf.
7+4A+5B > 6+4A+5B reduces to 1 > 0, so Dwarf > Elf.
For orc vs elf, 8+2A+5B ? 6+4A+5B reduces to 2 ? 2A. Because B<1 and A<B, A<1 so 2>2A, and Orc > Elf.
For gnome vs elf, 5.75+4.6A+5.75B ? 6+4A+5B reduces to 0.6A+0.75B ? 0.25. If you set A and B low enough, you can possibly get 0.6A+0.75B < 0.25. However, it would be unreasonable to take B<0.5, because defense should be at least half as important as offense. So, for most practical purposes, 0.6A+0.75B > 0.25 and Gnome > Elf.
DE is a little more complicated because you have 2 builds. Let's compare them with each other first. 5+6A+6B ? 6+6B reduces to 6A ? 1. There might be some people who would put A<1/6, but considering how much talk on how not turtling sucks, I conclude that most would consider A to be of some significant value, >=1/6, and 5+6A+6B >= 6+6B.
Then DE vs elf is 5+6A+6B ? 6+4A+5B reduces to 2A+B ? 1. It is possible to take either side of this. It is generally reasonable to take 1/2<=B<=1 and 1/6<=A<=1/2. Take the bottom range and you get 5/6 < 1. Take the top range and you get 2 > 1. Comparing the range of A and B, 5/6 to 2, to 1, I'd conclude that for the majority of ways to evaluate it, DE > Elf. (If you actually use A=1/6 and B=1/2, then you're really neglecting defense for offense)
For Avian vs Elf, 7+3A+5B ? 6+4A+5B reduces to 1 ? A. We've already established that 1>A so Avian > Elf.
There you have it. Elf is the weakest race in terms of usable offense and defense per acre. There are some ways you can force elf to be better than gnome and DE because elf elite offense is 6 and their offense is 5; to do that however, would totally undermine that fact that they have much better defense, so it's impractical.
Now of course, these are just optimal values, to be edited in war by spells, ops, attacks, dragons and other stuff. Elf is militarily and economically more sustainable than other races. Elf has magic. Therefore, elf is very good in attrition wars and any wars with a prolonged pre-war period. However, you can't deny that, all else equal, elf builds come up with lower total of {opa, practical dpa and total dpa}, weighted however u want each of those to be, than any other race.
Last edited by Eigenvector; 30-10-2009 at 18:24.
That's such a waste of text, because the raw numbers of your army are less important than actual bonuses.
Elf is one of the three kings because it has the best bonuses.
Orc has a better army, but the elf, dwarf, and human still owns it.
Catwalk's crusade for legalized cheating was a stunning success, with ghettos and low-tiered teams everywhere losing their wells of knowledge to better kingdoms in the process.
Step one: replace everything that works.
Step two: blame the predictable epic fail on outside forces.
Step three: keep the community informed that no progress has been made since the last update.
Step four: thank you for your patience.
However, VT2, my point was that the elf's raw numbers were the lowest, which isn't invalid. It was a mere misunderstanding. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word weakest; what I meant by weakest is lowest base power without other race advantages. If you take everything else into consideration, elf becomes quite formidable. Of course, you need to take everything else into account to determine the effectiveness of a race, but I wouldn't entirely neglect the basic power calculation either if I were you; so I wouldn't say it's a waste of text.
Last edited by Eigenvector; 30-10-2009 at 18:36.
True, but per acre means little when you need to do the calcs per nw if they were to give a real indication of the strenght/weakness. :pNow of course, these are just optimal values, to be edited in war by spells, ops, attacks, dragons and other stuff. Elf is militarily and economically more sustainable than other races. Elf has magic. Therefore, elf is very good in attrition wars and any wars with a prolonged pre-war period. However, you can't deny that, all else equal, elf builds come up with lower total opa, practical dpa and total dpa, weighted however u want each of those to be, than any other race.
But the raw numbers don't matter, and the lowest raw is gnome.
It has 5/5. When it sends out, it gets lower defense than the others, regardless of the pop-bonus.
This is a proven fact, and makes elf not the weakest for raw numbers.
Catwalk's crusade for legalized cheating was a stunning success, with ghettos and low-tiered teams everywhere losing their wells of knowledge to better kingdoms in the process.
Step one: replace everything that works.
Step two: blame the predictable epic fail on outside forces.
Step three: keep the community informed that no progress has been made since the last update.
Step four: thank you for your patience.
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