#1 go Timber???

[flogger]

You told your kingdom not to hit us, but they didn't follow your orders and hit us anyway -- later accused us (me) of having orchestrated it all. Last age we have the issue of us trusting your word but only to have you go back on it, and we were told to stop qq'ing. We desperately tried to run but found no takers.

This time some idiot is multi'ing and bounced on you and first thing I hear is you accusing us of doing it.

My post above was to imply you could stop accusing us of being behind scripting these gay multies, so we could have grown-up talks, but instead you start bad-talking us again. Really?

FYP

What are grown up talks? saying to ceasefire you want us to not grow past 3k acres until year 6? Its fine if you want revenge, that's what makes the game fun, but lets not act as if you guys have ever been interested in grown-up talks. My word last age was I would talk to you tomorrow or Saturday to finalize and I went the earlier of the two and within 20 hours of EoW CF told you our intentions.

You guys tend to get irrationally angry quite easily, there's nothing we've done other than beat you to make ya as mad as ya are, and if somehow winning a fight at 50% larger is what gives ya jollies, go for it. Seems a little silly to farm yourself out to someone else and then take such an aggressive position in week 1 vs a kd of mystics who can pump to 200 OPA if you ever want to like make science or explore or something, but maybe you'll find a way to make it make sense ;p

[flogger]

I remember a couple ages ago there was a kd that got a prov hacked. They went to the kd they were hostile with who didn't respond for 6 hours despite reading the messages. 2 waves were done on them before a cf was agreed upon. Only, the kd then "by accident" went agaisnt that cf and did another wave. Ultimately the kd's agreed that the kd hacked would have to landdrop out of the land race. Of course, the kd forcing this didn't tell their allies about the part of the deal stating that none of them would hit for acres.

I guess we could just do that?

Then you really remembered incorrectly. The meter count was something like 10 to 6. It was a bank fight 2 on 2. Havoc's meter was slightly higher because they opened with bounced and hit first. Havoc's banks hit twice to make it 14 to 6. The hacking happened an hour later when our 2 banks, down 2 hits at the time, returned. The two banks just traded hits to even the bank count back up.

There was no "waiting for 6 hours while we organized some great wave" We made 2 hits to even the count back up (as we would have done had it never happened) and then thought it was a strategy. Your faery suiciding, getting crazy modifers and then releasing the soldiers to feed the banks would have won you the bank fight, it would have been a good play. Your kingdom messaged us right away and then got mad at us for evening the bank hits up 50-50 (opposed to stopping and having our banks just sit there down 2 hits like you wanted) and not even hitting the faery, it was completely illogical.

There couldn't have been a wave because we wouldn't have relinquished button control. There was one or two people (marve, whom half your kingdom knows is a loose cannon) who was mad I was going to ceasefire and went ahead and hit. There might have been a bank hit in there from October as well. Everyone knew of the deal as well.

Dropping out of the crown race was your own suggestion, not mine. I said pause and resume in like a week, but you guys wanted to just CF us till EoA and fight easier targets. So from our perspective, you guys had a province send out and suicide, and your response immediately was to just ask for an EoA CF with our kingdom. Not sure why we would have to CF till EoA and have no one to fight because an enemy province sent out all of its stuff. And if you notice, I said I would take myself out of the crown race too, and we did. We didn't wave anyone but outplayerz the rest of the age.

And I'm perfectly fine with you trying to force us to do the same, although I'm not sure anyone who's tried would recommend it ;p

[munk]

FYP

What are grown up talks? saying to ceasefire you want us to not grow past 3k acres until year 6? Its fine if you want revenge, that's what makes the game fun, but lets not act as if you guys have ever been interested in grown-up talks. My word last age was I would talk to you tomorrow or Saturday to finalize and I went the earlier of the two and within 20 hours of EoW CF told you our intentions.

You guys tend to get irrationally angry quite easily, there's nothing we've done other than beat you to make ya as mad as ya are, and if somehow winning a fight at 50% larger is what gives ya jollies, go for it. Seems a little silly to farm yourself out to someone else and then take such an aggressive position in week 1 vs a kd of mystics who can pump to 200 OPA if you ever want to like make science or explore or something, but maybe you'll find a way to make it make sense ;p

We see past events differently, and I don't think talking tons here will change that. Either the CF we put on the table acceptable or not. If it's not make a counter offer, or don't. I lost motivation to try and make a similar fair proposal as you did the age my prov got stuff released when you started accusing us of being behind multies.

[topsy's revenge]

You are the one who suggested the outcome of that should be the precedent for this. Personally I think they are incomparable considering one had mountains of evidence pointing to someone from the kd being the culprit of illigal action and the other has nothing but a laughably paranoid monarch. However, if it's similar than you can take that deal.

If you're interested in cf talks i think IRC is probably the better place to do so. You won't be getting anywhere complaining about conspiracies here.

[flogger]

We already talked on IRC, so I imagine we'll be seeing each other until you ask how large you're allowed to grow to ;p

[Godly]

The more the game goes on, the more obvious it is to me that the most simple answer was the correct one all this time: protector hacked munk to avoid getting his **** pushed in. We can theorize all we want about a fictional crusader who hacked protector's computer in turn to hack munk's computer all we want, but i'm using occam's razor and the fact that prot is a little **** that will do anything to win to come to my final conclusion. flogger, I know you used to believe this as well, and it's funny because I kinda talked you off that ledge, but I'm telling you i'm like 98% sure he did it and you should be 100% sure that there is no plan in the world using multies to hit you that I would agree to. Those are the best odds you'll ever see in vegas. So either I didn't know about that plan (highly unlikely considering how highly I am involved in the design and direction of the kd this round) or I knew about it and agreed to it (even more unlikely). There is no further detective work necessary. Had Avalanche contacted me in any fashion, I would have told him to stick his multies up his ass. There isn't anything worse to me than someone who doublecrosses their own kingdom like he did.

[Ezzerland]

All I can do is laugh. flogger deserves any poor treatment Havoc gives them. I hope the BB v Havoc situation is resolved before Bishop comes back from MIA.

[flogger]

We see past events differently, and I don't think talking tons here will change that. Either the CF we put on the table acceptable or not. If it's not make a counter offer, or don't. I lost motivation to try and make a similar fair proposal as you did the age my prov got stuff released when you started accusing us of being behind multies.

I think we differ on our views of who's in the advantage in the current situation, so I doubt a CF will be had. You can't gain much of anything from bottom feeding vs anyone who knows what they're doing, as we found out in our last war. I pulled a work all nighter Thurs-Fri so just sorta looking at things now for the first time.

I don't make counter offers to unreasonable requests, you can feel free to PM me when you want a CF with us, but we won't be messaging you.

[gergnub]

all the girls in the yard.

[Zauper]

Hopefully this will be my only post on all the stupid bull****, and the rest can be talking about fun things, like who's doing what to whom where.

1) Flogger, you would be a lot more credible when you're re-stating history if you at least use facts. For example, during your whole long story of the situation two ages ago, this very first fact was wrong: when you made two bank hits after munk's prov was hacked, we were up one bank hit not two, because my prov was turtled at the time and was going to hit after your banks and beat them home. Your post goes on and on stressing about how we were up two bank hits. This is factually incorrect.

2) Topsy and I aren't doing any of the negotiation WRT you. I'm not involved in the deal-decision process with BB. I'm sure we are unreasonable, but Maxi isn't particularly unreasonable.

3) We are not responsible for the multis. Claiming or hinting that we are is ridiculous. The situation is nothing like when prot's IP accessed munk's computer, and you yourself said that you believed prot was responsible for it, using that evidence combined with your own logs of your council channel based on what prot said, when he went afk, and how he suddenly came back to talk about war after Munk's prov had been suicided. I believe your logs of your council channel had him coming back from being AFK to post the som, being the first person in the kingdom who noticed it?

Somehow that still turned into a conspiracy theory where we were responsible for it, though. It's pretty cute.

4) Ervgotti's faery was never going to be unbreakable by the third wave. Not only was our undead able to hit him prior to the bouncewave, but also our undead was out training him and Ervgotti had all of .7 TPA with no WTs so we could easily reduce his defense into range.

5) Considering the way you have acted towards us in the past, including:
A) Minor dealbreaks -- call them what you will, but they were -- with no apology or care.
B) 'It's not about the deal, it's about the spirit of the deal'.
C) 'When I defined this term for you in our negotiations, what I told you is not what it actually means. I meant something other than what I said, so that's what we're using instead.'
D) Forcing a deal on us requiring us to drop out of the t10 (you say you didn't suggest it, but the only alternatives you would allow, after taking 3 extra cow hits++, were for us to reset all provs or quit)
E) Saying you would CF until around yr9 last age and then the next day deciding that whoops, no, you wouldn't. Messaging us 'within 24 hours', which happens to mean PMing me on IRC while I was asleep and was 2+ hours idle and wouldn't see it for ~8 more hours.
...and so forth
I don't feel any particular sympathy for your situation with the multi. If you were literally any other kd, we would CF you because of it, but you've gone out of your way to be dicks to us while pretending to be reasonable for the last two ages.

Say all you want that you find the offer we've given you unreasonable; that won't make it unreasonable considering the circumstances.

[Nitram]

weird **** will happen when pulse war, it dont reflect on havoc.

[KuhaN]

We must leave it out on the battlefield!

[flogger]

Hopefully this will be my only post on all the stupid bull****, and the rest can be talking about fun things, like who's doing what to whom where.

1) Flogger, you would be a lot more credible when you're re-stating history if you at least use facts. For example, during your whole long story of the situation two ages ago, this very first fact was wrong: when you made two bank hits after munk's prov was hacked, we were up one bank hit not two, because my prov was turtled at the time and was going to hit after your banks and beat them home. Your post goes on and on stressing about how we were up two bank hits. This is factually incorrect.

2) Topsy and I aren't doing any of the negotiation WRT you. I'm not involved in the deal-decision process with BB. I'm sure we are unreasonable, but Maxi isn't particularly unreasonable.

3) We are not responsible for the multis. Claiming or hinting that we are is ridiculous. The situation is nothing like when prot's IP accessed munk's computer, and you yourself said that you believed prot was responsible for it, using that evidence combined with your own logs of your council channel based on what prot said, when he went afk, and how he suddenly came back to talk about war after Munk's prov had been suicided. I believe your logs of your council channel had him coming back from being AFK to post the som, being the first person in the kingdom who noticed it?

Somehow that still turned into a conspiracy theory where we were responsible for it, though. It's pretty cute.

4) Ervgotti's faery was never going to be unbreakable by the third wave. Not only was our undead able to hit him prior to the bouncewave, but also our undead was out training him and Ervgotti had all of .7 TPA with no WTs so we could easily reduce his defense into range.

5) Considering the way you have acted towards us in the past, including:
A) Minor dealbreaks -- call them what you will, but they were -- with no apology or care.
B) 'It's not about the deal, it's about the spirit of the deal'.
C) 'When I defined this term for you in our negotiations, what I told you is not what it actually means. I meant something other than what I said, so that's what we're using instead.'
D) Forcing a deal on us requiring us to drop out of the t10 (you say you didn't suggest it, but the only alternatives you would allow, after taking 3 extra cow hits++, were for us to reset all provs or quit)
E) Saying you would CF until around yr9 last age and then the next day deciding that whoops, no, you wouldn't. Messaging us 'within 24 hours', which happens to mean PMing me on IRC while I was asleep and was 2+ hours idle and wouldn't see it for ~8 more hours.
...and so forth
I don't feel any particular sympathy for your situation with the multi. If you were literally any other kd, we would CF you because of it, but you've gone out of your way to be dicks to us while pretending to be reasonable for the last two ages.

Say all you want that you find the offer we've given you unreasonable; that won't make it unreasonable considering the circumstances.

1) Ok, could likely be true since you were stuck at the meter cap. Doesn't change the content of my post, and more particularly the point that there was no reason to be mad over the bank hit, because we were making those 2 bank hits anyways whether the faery incident happened or not, because you used your meter on bounces.

2) The offer was we couldn't have a province grow over 3k acres by year 6. It is in fact, the most unreasonable offer I've ever heard, I'm sure everyone not in havoc would agree to that.

3) Where is the claim of us saying you were behind the multis, I said it was avalanche. Do I think he might have messaged someone in your kingdom? Sure, he messaged mine. Every kingdom, yours included has 10 new players in it this age. No monarch knows everything these days. Do I think you or godly or megas or zara or devolution or topsy had any knowledge? No. Can't say the same for the rest of the 20 people, however. You waved us on the 8th. The multis were created 12 hours prior. Whoever made them knew you were planning on waving us. That combined with generally when everyone has the exact same story right in place, and people say "oh, I bet they hit us next" then go ahead and do so immediately afterwards, I simply said that it is suspicious, which, it is.

4) What is easier to nightstrike, a faery with elite defense or an undead with ospec offense? Regardless going from 1 province who can break to 6 is fairly significant. The upsetting thing would be hitting it right away without even caring or attempting to let him get his defense back, it could have easily been fixed. I had my entire kingdom ceasefire you after prepping for it for 6 weeks. You could have waited 2 hours, or at least brought up the subject of trying to make it equitable.

5) How about the solution of "wait for his armies to get home and keep going" or "we can CF a bit and go again" Your answers were "we don't feel like fighting this fight anymore, lets just CF until the end of age" Clearly that can't be the answer, as then anyone can just suicide a province and get an EoA CF with their largest threat on the server. Oh, and regarding E) I have it on authority you have done the same thing to multiple kingdoms in the past. People change their minds. Demanding an answer on a Ceasefire an hour after a 5 day fight on little sleep is certainly more ridiculous than changing your mind after someone wakes up. Furthermore, anyone reasonable would say "hey, this guy didn't sleep for 3 days, maybe when he woke up he might change his mind, and you know, it really wouldn't be unreasonable if he did"

[ALIBI-AR]

Given the history I find this conflict quite interesting.

flogger and Elit, after just last age, definitely have proven they deserve any bad things that happen to their kingdoms. Their abuse and lack of concern for the betterment of utopia is astonishing. I told you both last age that when unjust things happen to you in the future to withhold your complaints. You were unwilling to deal with core issues when you had the power and therefore support any form of future **** play. This is just the start, be sure.


Now, I hope that after BB and AMA get taught a lesson about the importance of taking proper action AND acting respectfully when they are in power, I equally hope that Havoc and pew pew receive deletions for their blatant abuse of the games mechanics.

Best Wishes to both sides.

[Zauper]

1) Ok, could likely be true since you were stuck at the meter cap. Doesn't change the content of my post, and more particularly the point that there was no reason to be mad over the bank hit, because we were making those 2 bank hits anyways whether the faery incident happened or not, because you used your meter on bounces.

And we were planning on making a bank hit afterwards, but couldn't because of the fae being suicided.

2) The offer was we couldn't have a province grow over 3k acres by year 6. It is in fact, the most unreasonable offer I've ever heard, I'm sure everyone not in havoc would agree to that.

Seems more reasonable than 'reset your kingdom' to me. Hell, it's pretty similar to 'no one in your kingdom can ever pass 9k acres', which apparently you forced on Sanc a few ages ago?

If you don't like it, negotiate something else. Like I said, I may have helped come up with the initial offer, but I'm not in charge of what we accept WRT your kingdom. If you want something else, convince Maxi to take it.

3) Where is the claim of us saying you were behind the multis, I said it was avalanche. Do I think he might have messaged someone in your kingdom? Sure, he messaged mine. Every kingdom, yours included has 10 new players in it this age. No monarch knows everything these days. Do I think you or godly or megas or zara or devolution or topsy had any knowledge? No. Can't say the same for the rest of the 20 people, however. You waved us on the 8th. The multis were created 12 hours prior. Whoever made them knew you were planning on waving us. That combined with generally when everyone has the exact same story right in place, and people say "oh, I bet they hit us next" then go ahead and do so immediately afterwards, I simply said that it is suspicious, which, it is.

You claimed it like a page back. And again right here "well gee, it sure is suspicious that we got multis hittin us"

The 'people' you're referring to don't play in my kingdom.

4) What is easier to nightstrike, a faery with elite defense or an undead with ospec offense? Regardless going from 1 province who can break to 6 is fairly significant. The upsetting thing would be hitting it right away without even caring or attempting to let him get his defense back, it could have easily been fixed. I had my entire kingdom ceasefire you after prepping for it for 6 weeks. You could have waited 2 hours, or at least brought up the subject of trying to make it equitable.

A faery with defspec and elite def.... who could have been MV'd by one of our elves. The undead with offspec and elite offense. The undead who had better thief defense, because CS + WT + higher raw tpa...The hit on him would have enabled the second undead to hit as well, and that leaves you with a pretty high chance of plague.

If you want to deal with it, you should message us, not the other way around. When munk was hacked, we messaged you and you didn't respond for 6 hours. We responded immediately. You didn't say you wanted anything.

5) How about the solution of "wait for his armies to get home and keep going"

Which solves him having had been released?

or "we can CF a bit and go again"

Which doesn't solve the above issue of him having had WPA released, and did not involve you returning our acres from your extra cow hits at that time.

Your answers were "we don't feel like fighting this fight anymore, lets just CF until the end of age" Clearly that can't be the answer, as then anyone can just suicide a province and get an EoA CF with their largest threat on the server.

False; we had evidence that your co-monarch was responsible for it. That is a substantially different situation than a random suicide (or multis not associated with us bouncing on you).

If there was compelling enough evidence that I was convinced (as you were) that my kingdom was responsible for something like that, I would EOA CF on the spot, and offer them all of the acres in the responsible parties province.

Oh, and regarding E) I have it on authority you have done the same thing to multiple kingdoms in the past.

I have it on authority that you are wrong. If I agree to a deal, my word is given and it's done.

Perhaps there were qualifiers that I used that you didn't use? For example, "I need to check with zzz, but I think..." as distinct from "Yeah, we'll CF until ~yr9". It's hard to tell without the logs of your claim, of course.

People change their minds. Demanding an answer on a Ceasefire an hour after a 5 day fight on little sleep is certainly more ridiculous than changing your mind after someone wakes up. Furthermore, anyone reasonable would say "hey, this guy didn't sleep for 3 days, maybe when he woke up he might change his mind, and you know, it really wouldn't be unreasonable if he did"

If you don't want to agree to something, don't agree to it. It's as simple as that. "I can't agree to anything right now, I'm too tired." "I can't decide if we can CF, I need to talk to people" "I need to sleep on it to know if we can CF." These are all responses that are reasonable and would reflect the above. I don't think anyone reasonable would say "Hey, this person agreed to do something in good faith, that is something that I cannot count on for my planning." On the contrary, they would say "This person has agreed to something in good faith, I can plan around that."

Claiming it's harder to decide whether you want to CF than it is to run a war is a more ridiculous claim than you should keep your word when you give it.

If anyone in my kingdom negotiated a deal in good faith (meaning believing they were doing the right thing for the kd and they were authorized / had to do it), I would honor it. I've been put in this situation a few times by my nubs.