Age 61 potential changes comments.

[Bukharistan]

Mage ops have a way lower successrate in general. Late age I played an Elf with 5.5 raw wpa and 100% sci, still I failed like 50-60% of my MS on attackers. With 3.5 raw tpa I managed to riot quite a lot of provinces though.

[noobium]

Kidnapping may give you less peasants than what a fireball kill. But while a fireball means only killing peasants from someone else, kidnapping means removing them from an opponent and bringning them to yourself. I can't agree with the gains being unbalanced.

i've kidnapped 4 fireballs' worth of peasants at times. depends on scale and whether people are noob enough to try and fireball a prov that can kidnap into the ground.

fb is a bit too strong though, at least against provinces with a lot of peasants. fb should scale down its % of damage for provinces with a lot of peasants/acre, it's ridiculous that 8-10 fireballs will shatter the peasantry of any province no matter what.

the argument that fb ought to be weaker than kidnap is ridiculous. fb is already pretty weak, it would be even more so if kidnap had better gain. kidnap is pretty damn useful, but it generally sucks for selfish nub players because solo peasants are too fragile for anything that isn't a Faery, and Fae is hardly invincible. unfortunately ghetto halflings are selfish nubs over 90% of the time.

[tetley]

Ps:
Please bring back rogue double td effectiveness

Strong this.

[crease]

Strong this.

Halfer rogues are so finely balanced on useless/OP margins that you cant justify something that gives them infinite sustain for little cost. Better to err on the weaker side as use will be found regardless.

[tetley]

on which chart?.

lol

[noobium]

i think rogue is fine too. it should be a lot riskier than simply being able to spam ops with no fear of losses. (i would argue that if you fail half your ops as rogue, that in itself is pretty bad play, and if succeeding over 80% then the reduced losses from dens aren't that great to begin with.)

rogue still could use some kind of boost. i suggested -20% thief costs in order to allow rogues to build up tpa more efficiently, stackable with Halfers' current bonus. mystics have a bonus that lets them build up wpa faster, even if it's impractical to use in war, so why not give rogues something to help them build up tpa faster?

[xrawrx]

My thoughts on the changes and what I've read:


IMO Avians needed a bit of a buff, not a nerf.

Merchant got nerfed a little too hard since the only races now that would maybe use it are Halfling and Undead (but with elites cheaper now they probably wouldnt make use of it much).

Mystic should start with 400 wizards, and maybe to balance the Rogue issue everyone is talking about, give them +2 stealth per hour instead of +1 and access to invisibility.

Give cleric Animate dead maybe? And War Hero needs a little balancing I think, OOW you have pretty much no bonus. Maybe a faster or cheaper draft rate since people would be happier to follow a hero in to battle? I just think the old bonus of +1 general and the honor bonus it had was much better balanced since its current bonuses are way too situational.

Best idea I've seen in this thread though was the idea of a dragon log to track who is contributing to funding/killing it.

[crease]

My thoughts on the changes and what I've read:


IMO Avians needed a bit of a buff, not a nerf.

Merchant got nerfed a little too hard since the only races now that would maybe use it are Halfling and Undead (but with elites cheaper now they probably wouldnt make use of it much).

Mystic should start with 400 wizards, and maybe to balance the Rogue issue everyone is talking about, give them +2 stealth per hour instead of +1 and access to invisibility.

Give cleric Animate dead maybe? And War Hero needs a little balancing I think, OOW you have pretty much no bonus. Maybe a faster or cheaper draft rate since people would be happier to follow a hero in to battle? I just think the old bonus of +1 general and the honor bonus it had was much better balanced since its current bonuses are way too situational.

Best idea I've seen in this thread though was the idea of a dragon log to track who is contributing to funding/killing it.

Merchant was BUFFED chaparoony. Mystic has one of the strongest starting personalities for war kd's. Rogue isnt even a problem, its more the lack of choice of viable races to use it with.

I Agree avian needs a buff, but it wasnt overly weak this age, just people are unwilling to have 7 hour attack times, so it only viable for 10-15 kds max. Buffing it heavily will make it almost a required pick if its viable for your average ghetto. Nobody wants that. That being said, it does need something.

War hero gets the strongest protection and early age/oop war numbers. If you give it OOW bonuses it becomes a required pick for all growth kds, so it needs tweaking fairly heavily if thats what you are after.

[xrawrx]

Exchanging +30% income (which is pretty much max Alchemy science) for ToG to anyone who has it is NOT a buff. Heavy attacker races don't need spec credits since they mainly run all elites (and are generally low on pessies due to draft and T/M harassing) and Dwarf has free buildings and a huge economy boost, Human and Faery have ToG by default. Elf will use a lot of def specs but they have -50% losses so its not a big deal there. So that just leaves Halfers and Undead to possibly benefit from it. If they removed ToG from Humans than maybe it would be a different story.

My statements on Rogue were mainly since people keep calling for double TD efficiency (as mage have double guild efficiency) to balance it out a little bit. Mystic gets 3 awesome spells while Rogue gets one (AW), but the aren't a very efficient use of stealth (though prop waves can be kind of fun).

Agreed on avian, not overly weak this age but not optimal unless in a swarm... but certainly didnt need a nerf of any sort really (and them nerfing Tact attack time just kinda kills the majority of the players that WOULD play it I think--if they aren't buffing Cleric at all).

As for War Hero, heavy tweaking would be fine. I just think that all Races and Personas should be viable options for warring kingdoms as well as ghettos... atm a War Hero that never enters a war or gets a dragon (and even then they are killed fairly quickly) just seems too situational for it to fill that role.

[Katsuni]

You know what? Time for a dumb idea.

Avians get -60% attack time, -50% land taken, but the same damage to enemy troops, and only -25% damage for massacres/razes, with no penalty for ambushes. In addition, they gain double benefit from hospitals.

The numbers would obviously need to be tweaked, but this would give them a clear and obvious purpose in the game, which they currently lack. They'd be perfectly ideal for strategically wearing down enemies during wars, but would be significantly weaker outside of war due to relations meters.

Yes, it's probably overpowered as presented currently, but the idea of a blitz-based attacker who can slam a target for population damage, then rapidly change to a new target as needed is something we don't really have, and would work well with their reduced attack speed.

As it stands... avians don't really stand out as having any particularly notable purpose. They're not bad, but they aren't clearly defined like the other races are. Each race has a well defined concept behind them, and avians have speed... but they don't really have anything that makes especially useful benefit of that speed compared to other options. Sure, you attack faster and can get more land and deal more damage over time, but an orc can do the same thing by just hitting harder in all counts.

It's not even a matter of power, so much as it is a matter of not having a defined role is all. They could literally remove avians this age, as it is, and it wouldn't especially change the game since they don't really do anything particularly special.

Anyway, my idea's not the best one out there, I'm sure (I can almost guarantee it =P ), but they seriously need to get some defining feature going on other than just hitting faster for less effect.

[Ethan]

See power rankings:

Halfer too strong again, human and elf still stink. Elf in particular is a real trap cause people keep thinking you can play A/M with it. Buff Elf attacker some (NW "games" - give them a 5/2 at 4 NW?), and halfer maybe +20% troop costs? Human probably just another 5% on sci and 5.25 NW on the elites - they'll still be hard/weird, but a good enough player could do something neat with them.

Faery, despite the low power ranking, is fine. For all that I've played it and loved it, faery attacker is not supposed to happen, and the very low ranking shows this.

[Captain Blood]

I appreciate the feedback on being a rogue. As I said, it is time for suggestions to balance the races. Plus some ops. Most of you made very good points, but I like playing as a Hybrid and a Halfling needs to be almost all thief to have a decent 5+ TPA and 3+ WPA. Without changes to the Halfling, I will not play them next age as they are too weak and easy to defeat in a war. MS, Chastity and FB will shatter a Halfling quicker than any other race.
I also agree that Avian needs a boost, but I do not have a suggestion as to what.

[noobium]

HA/Rogue really relies on being fed to train super-high TPA. Until people start calculating that in their estimations of Halfer/Rogue they shouldn't be surprised that they're performing terribly.

[StratOcastle]

For avian switch Greater Protection for Fog. That's a dynamic.

* I realize this has real life implications in that it can scatter waves. It simple jibes with avian and boosts them in their strongest suit. *

[tetley]

So that is 700 + 31*12 = 1072 in thief losses just grabbing SoTs (my actual losses, since I retrained them were 1086).

So ... have some tacts in your kingdom who can take accurate intel with 1 thief lol. problem solved