I guess we agree Noobium. Bouncing can be used situationally but is also unwise situationally ^^
I guess we agree Noobium. Bouncing can be used situationally but is also unwise situationally ^^
In war, how to play dwarf to get the best of them?
Bumped to the top thanks to forum wipe. It's not necro if it's on the first page amirite?
How do play Dwarf to get the best out of them? They're really good at handling attacks oow, and okay at growing. Their bonuses are passive and don't give a direct bonus to economic output or attacking, so this hurts them both for growing or warring. Dwarf isn't really good at fighting quick wars, but they can fit well with a lot of races - basically all of the attacking races work well with them, and the Dwarf/Elf synergy is still strong (but not as strong as it was when this question was posted).
This age, everyone else got better buffs than Dwarf, and Dwarf's only gain is that they naturally cast pitfalls. PF is a good spell, but the Dwarf's favored personality (Cleric) already had this spell.
Being Cleric is useful because it accounts for Dwarf's troop loss weakness relative to every other attacker, and not building hospitals is even better for a race with +30% BE and freebuild; or, in situations where a province really needs strong troop sustainability, Dwarf is better able to keep hospitals built and stack them with Cleric's natural -40%, allowing their armies to remain remarkably stable.
The flipside is that Dwarf damage output is going to be very tough, and it doesn't matter how well their economy and troops sustain if they are getting dominated by Orcs and Undeads too early. Picking a personality which enhances Dwarf outputs, like Merchant or Warrior, doesn't work as well as one would hope. At least this age, a Dwarf/Warrior gets pitfalls, which is really useful. You wouldn't want to have your Elf or Faery casting pf if a Dwarf can do the job just as well.
Dwarf/Tactician is pretty fail... their military isn't strong enough to really maximize faster attack speed (unlike humans and the 7pt hitters), they don't reach the really low attack times that avian/tact and their nw-efficiency is pretty bad already. It's remarkably easy for Dwarf Tacticians to bloat, and their bonuses become irrelevant or a liability; and for a turtly attacker with substantial defense, there are better options.
Generally, if you're playing Dwarf (or their counterpart, Undead), you want a province that can handle being hit and handle rebuilding, and should keep that in mind.
For a big cow there are far better options than Dwarf this age, though I guess it works...
Not to intrude on your thread...and i'll let u elaborate more if u feel the need, but dwarfs work best when they have high science. They get more out of the science due to their ability to act as more of a blank canvas AND are able to pump science easier than other races. If u plan on running dwarf, 1/2 your work will be out of war pumping "correctly"Originally Posted by noobium
How to win Honor/WW crown this age?
This is true, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Everyone needs science, even orcs.
Fight the other honor and warring kingdoms, it's the only way that isn't incredibly scummy.How to win Honor/WW crown this age?
Obviously setup is only a small part of warring, so much of the game is mindgames and engineering situations as favorable as possible. Most likely though, if you want to win honor crown, it is better to pick your fights rather than have them picked for you, and your setup should be picked with the expectation of giving button for most of your wars - especially the wars later on, when you have to fight the strongest war kingdoms. It's not just about what races you pick, but where you prefer to position them.
My preference for setup would be to pick Orc/Merch, Av/Tact, and Elves. I might want some Faeries as well, but an advantage of not having Faeries is that more kingdoms are likely to offer button or accept a declaration, thinking the kingdom with less defensible provinces will be an easier win. A setup with 25 provinces that are all able to attack without training ospec midwar is really helpful for reaping maximum honor when you've won. The worse situation for a Faery is that massacred Faery = deader than dead, whereas an Elf can at least fall back on being able to attack, however poorly. If you have Faeries, you're keeping in mind that their function is more defensive than offensive... using Faeries as banks (or something like banks) is really the best way to use them. Economy and military don't have fail rates, and you'd want to favor strategies that are not dependent on the RNG.
If you want either chart, it's far better to fight quick wars rather than wars of long attrition, but your setup should be able to fight a long war if it has to. Long wars and dragged out hostiles are bad for business. Your goal, then is to make sure that when you do wave, whoever you wave will not be able to drag out indefinitely, or else they would lose too much ground to even consider pushing a button.
Retal wars can happen, as do gangbangs (however much people talk about "honor"). Only so much can be done to prevent the latter, but for the former, if you wave someone, you have to plan around the potential for retalwar, and make sure any retalwar is more damaging to the kingdom you fight than yourself. Bear in mind, if both kingdoms have the same goal of winning honor chart, for most of the age they can't afford protracted hostiles any more than you do. (Whether people act on that is a matter of luck.)
Depending on setup, it's usually better to just wave all your provinces, rather than trying to be clever with hostile meter. Some setups are good for that, but if you're playing Orcs or Undeads it's a terrible habit.
Arranged wars are kind of ****ty. I don't like them, too many people want to engineer favorable conditions, and start complaining when you try to do likewise. Best would be to just wave / offer button, shut up and let a grown-ass man or woman make their own decision with it. It's not worth it to get too clever with diplo, just ****ing war, retalwar, or don't. The d-bags who start this forum drama horse****, it's best not to deal with them any more than you have to, isolate them and don't allow them war wins / honor beyond what they deserve, and fight them when you're able to fight them.
At some point you're going to get a bunch of horse**** from these people.
Winning the honor crown is mostly luckboxing and some scumbagging, it's honestly not worth it to expect #1 right away. If you can get a top 10 honor chart place though, you are usually capable of getting closer and closer. There are too many things to say to get #1, and I'm hardly an expert on everything and anything. There are, however, common noob tropes which should be avoided, and one of the worst tropes that got popular lately was DURRR SUSTAIN.
edit: I should have mentioned up above, one of the most common ghetto mistakes - don't assume that you're always going to succeed 100% of ops and, in general, never be too overconfident or assume that a province is untouchable based on flawed assumptions. There's a fine line between judging a kingdom's strategic aptitude (since obviously some kingdoms are not going to be able to chain efficiently due to organizational weakness), and ignoring a weakness because you haven't experienced what it's like to get massacred in the ground. At the same time, it's hard to fully prevent some of the things that can wreck a province, like the rape province button, or a ton of massacres flattening a province to nothing if done rapidly enough.
edit 2: Massacre in war is super super good. Use it - it works even better if you picked Orcs, as not only are your massacres stronger, but unlike Undead the Orcs can actually capitalize on mass. Massacre is highly effective in ghetto wars, when dealing with low-defense provinces that you wouldn't want to waste a chain on; if they're not smart, the ghetto will keep land-grabbing with their provs because they've committed to land chains. If they are smart, at least you're not making that province stronger by giving them the range to keep dropping your core, and you've set up a target to help your chained guys recover.
Better kingdoms will realize that they do need substantial defense on their provinces to lock off potential sidetaps, so this will not be as effective.
Last edited by noobium; 13-05-2015 at 06:42.
Our kd does both. We try to prearrange a war, and if they say yes, then we hit enough to give button, and wait for them to do it. Has worked well last age for us. *****es gonna be *****es, not much you can do about it.Arranged wars are kind of ****ty. I don't like them, too many people want to engineer favorable conditions, and start complaining when you try to do likewise. Best would be to just wave / offer button, shut up and let a grown-ass man or woman make their own decision with it. It's not worth it to get too clever with diplo, just ****ing war, retalwar, or don't. The d-bags who start this forum drama horse****, it's best not to deal with them any more than you have to, isolate them and don't allow them war wins / honor beyond what they deserve, and fight them when you're able to fight them.
At some point you're going to get a bunch of horse**** from these people.
Winning the honor crown is mostly luckboxing and some scumbagging, it's honestly not worth it to expect #1 right away. If you can get a top 10 honor chart place though, you are usually capable of getting closer and closer. There are too many things to say to get #1, and I'm hardly an expert on everything and anything. There are, however, common noob tropes which should be avoided, and one of the worst tropes that got popular lately was DURRR SUSTAIN.
Thanks for the insight. Looking at the survey, I don't see that many Orc/Merch, Av/Tact, and Elves. It will be interesting to see. I like no bs/negotiating warring. But I don't believe it's possible to win any of the crowns w/o going through the bs/negotiating.
And btw..what is UD so hated as an attacking race? I rather enjoy them a lot.
Undead can't theive and their elite nw is way too high, for a start. The spec convert requirement was a terrible penalty. Plague is way too random and situational, though it is the only good reason to pick Undeads. Offensive sustainability is the most overrated thing going; any long war is decided by defensive provinces, not offensive sustain, and long defensive hostiles are things that kingdoms really don't want to do. I could see picking Cleric for a kingdom full of noobs that isn't warring, but if I go that route I'd rather play Dwarves than Orcs.
The reason people don't pick those options is usually because they're dumb and pick crappy options like Orc/Cleric. What people pick in this game is usually a matter of what they're told to pick, not what's actually good or viable. People are told to play Orc/Cleric or Avian/Cleric for stupid reasons they shouldn't be in, and have convinced themselves that it's the only way to go, rather than doing the smart thing.
I'd only want Dwarves as Cleric, and that's due to their other bonuses rather than troop losses alone. Everything else is iffy at best.
Why not humans clerics? -58% def loses and they will have some sustain on the elites.
Plague is always good at the beginning of the chain.
Sage and Tactician have better bonuses against races not named Undead. Sages can be problematic and are really overrated around here, but Tactician is really good for synchronizing hit times.
Human/Cleric is better than Orcs, but many of the same things apply, except you'd actually use your elites to defend at times. Basing your strategy purely around troop sustainability is a terrible strategy, up there with Zapp Brannigan's strategy against the Killbots. Any troop sustain bonus should be considered along with what that means... for instance, Elf's old bonus meant that they had to be chained hard or don't bother, and Undead's bonus is great because it's tied into a race with a strong elite and Plague. Dwarf makes Cleric work because they build for free and have solid defense, making them really strong at handling attacks. Human is more smash/grab in war, even if you're playing in a ghetto (again, only considering them as the majority of a kingdom, not specialist roles like cow). In such a situation, if you're playing it right, hospitals are enough sustainability to do what you need to do. For long hostiles or wars, a human's major threat is more from being hollowed out with ops, or fighting against races who get a lot more freebies than human gets. What you'd really want is something which boosts your output offensive or economically, or something like Tactician or War Hero which have strategic uses.
For what it's worth, when Rusty (may they burn eternally in Hell) stomped my ghetto, they had no hospitals on their human/tacticians, in an age where Humans had less military strength than they do now.
I'm new. Tactically speaking, what's the purpose of kidnap and fireball on a province (and when should this be done)?
again this is ask "noobium" but hes ignoring a few key points :P
Over the time scale of 10+ days offensive sustainability IS directly related to a defensive prov. If i can simply control your peasants so neither side is training all i have to do is wait out your offensive decay while my offense sustains. Eventually i can pool resources such that 10-15k def is "enough" to create a defensive province in my kd while u'd have to pump to 20-25k.
Thats y kds like FS almost always win, they just say my war strategy is going to be war untill both kds are gutted completely and hope we survive better..its also why
Tact is a HORRIBLE chose on human because with qf and tact your already at a lower attack time than most can sustain via army in/out. For the random attacker CS provides no def against t/ms who simply coordinate and cast MV before doing their op runs, its better to not need hospitals and overbuild WT. [NOTE: on attackers....RM is MUCH better than CS since you force the enemy to risk RMing MS, and MS is routinely cast...CS is comparable to RM via FBing, it'll "help" but ultimately it wont really slow the enemy down]
Typically choice is going to be do i want more offense (warrior) or what provides more free space to my build cleric/tact. Its why cleric tends to be better than tact. W/that said war hero/sage/merchant are all options, but u have to KNOW u can close a war or how to pump science/wpa better than the enemy kd.
Last edited by Persain; 14-05-2015 at 08:15.
Just wanted to say I love this thread and strategy discussions! Old timer returning to the game after 10+ years :)
This gets thrown around a lot and I am going to finally call BS. If I am forcing you to hunt for CS with MV, burning mana and runes, AND I am active like these T/Ms who want to run ops on me it isn't all that hard to be ready for the ops run and get CS back up if they purge it before all that many ops get through (Thanks oops page!!!). Saying it provides no defense is flat out silly and seems to make the assumption that T/M cores are just superior humans to core attackers.
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