FS vs ED: FS brings in out of hostile help?

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

logs?

This is all I see:

And the issue with that, is that it is when you offer 750 honor/day for the CF. Which is a lot more than you just indicated.

i dont have irc logs, so feel free to assume i am lying.. we have plenty of previous hostilities with many other kds, and all our diplo stance been rather same - why would ed be different?

its a sad day to see you defending ed blindly though, hope you can get back to your objective stance..

[Zauper]

i dont have irc logs, so feel free to assume i am lying.. we have plenty of previous hostilities with many other kds, and all our diplo stance been rather same - why would ed be different?

its a sad day to see you defending ed blindly though, hope you can get back to your objective stance..

There are two sides telling opposite stories. I have full access to one sides logs, and those logs support the story they're telling. The other side does not have any logs to provide. That makes it hard to be convinced in any other direction. I know from dealing with parth, and seeing how he interacts with other kds, that ED is generally reasonable to deal with, and sometimes extremely unreasonable.

Those logs include a significant number of ingame messages, though it is possible they don't include all of them. Would the ingame have come from your M, or a different prov?

I am quite objective, but I'm also a fan of grudges and getting revenge. And I don't see anything wrong with what's happened to date. I also don't see anything wrong with how you played last age. Doesn't mean that either side wouldn't be pissed at the other.

[lampost]

Did this really happen? one would have thought pyro would hold off at least till the rest of the age from playing dirty.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

There are two sides telling opposite stories. I have full access to one sides logs, and those logs support the story they're telling. The other side does not have any logs to provide. That makes it hard to be convinced in any other direction. I know from dealing with parth, and seeing how he interacts with other kds, that ED is generally reasonable to deal with, and sometimes extremely unreasonable.

Those logs include a significant number of ingame messages, though it is possible they don't include all of them. Would the ingame have come from your M, or a different prov?

I am quite objective, but I'm also a fan of grudges and getting revenge. And I don't see anything wrong with what's happened to date. I also don't see anything wrong with how you played last age. Doesn't mean that either side wouldn't be pissed at the other.

to tell the opposite story, they must be saying that they have offered us something for a cf last age - can you show me a single log where they offer us anything at all, and us rejecting it?

[Tadpole]

can you show me a precedent to that kind of deal? i dont care how it works in the top, but nobody gets multiple free waves in the warring tier.. there is a clear precedent this age, where we moved on for less than a cf but you have been deliberately evading this factual data for many posts now..

Wasn't there a mention of 750 honor / day of hostile CF deal from last age? Difference here being that, that offer was made after extended hostile (to repay for hostile destruction and time investment I guess?) - while ED had a harsh honor/sci deal made up front? I'm not sure it should matter, but perhaps it does. Haven't got a solid enough opinion tbh. I've never been faced with a honor for CF deal. So unknown territory for me. I guess you can claim what ED does, that the situation here where they're demanding honor is just mirroring the deal FS tried to make half-way through last ages conflict. But I can see how FS thinks its different, due to the timing of the deal - and the clear grudge background is there where ED obviously not only want to gain, but also punish. It seems mostly illusory though. The difference. Motives might be different, but the material outcome the same. I might be wrong of course (in which case, do correct me).

Last age: FS and ED have an active hostile, both wanting to get to war. Circumstances changes, ED wants to back out. FS says they can't and demand honor equal to several waves. ED turns it down. FS farms ED for two weeks and gains more than the deal would have got them. (edit: I don't have a problem with this btw)

This age: FS and ED have an active hostile, only ED wants to get war (but FS acknowledges conflict by taking active part in it). FS decides to cease hostilities and wants to back out. ED says they can't and demand honor equal to several waves. FS turns it down. (edit: nor do I have a problem with this) Pyro, affiliated with FS earlier in the age, waves ED (edit: this though...).

Obviously very simplified. I've seen loggs both from last and current age. And it seems these parties really don't like each other. Diplo situation seems a bit messy.

I don't have a conclusion here really. Messy conflict. FS played hard ball last age. ED (slightly more so?) this age. Things went kinda overboard with the current/former allies intervening though. I sincerely hope FS has nothing to do with it, and that Pyro are just opportunistic pricks. I'm intrigued to see the outcome though. Conflict delivers ;)

[Zauper]

to tell the opposite story, they must be saying that they have offered us something for a cf last age - can you show me a single log where they offer us anything at all, and us rejecting it?

They say that you never offered CF for a wave. You say that you did.

Again, I have their full logs (and I idle in their priv, so no one can have tampered with them) -- so I see parth discussing with members of the kd about offering you 2 free waves and honor on top -- why would he be doing that if you had offered him a wave?

Apr 06 17:14:38 <silverfox> So whats the plan if they keep razing?
Apr 06 17:14:39 <Parthenogenesis> Offer them something
Apr 06 17:14:47 <Parthenogenesis> 2 free waves, free honor, whatever

They don't claim that they made an offer for CF. They claim that you did not (e: prior to 750 honor/day). You claim that your offer of 750 honor/day was a negotiating tactic; they would say the same about not offering anything. Note that that log is 2 days prior to the offer of 750 honor/day. Why....would they be talking about that if you had offered them a free wave for CF?

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Last age: FS and ED have an active hostile, both wanting to get to war. Circumstances changes, ED wants to back out. FS says they can't and demand honor equal to several waves. ED turns it down. FS farms ED for two weeks and gains more than the deal would have got them.

its a good way of trolling to say timings doesnt make difference but changing the timeline to make it look worse for fs.. we didnt demand anything from them on the beginning, and '750 honor' was the result of the conflict, not the reason..

[citadela01]

So their offer to you was 5% of your honor and a learn wave? Again, that doesn't seem too extreme to me. The bigger issue is the difficulty in extracting honor without removing land with it. Haven't they taken more than that to this point already? Wouldn't it have been wiser for you to take that deal that lose what you've lost? Didn't you take a larger % last age?

Those are the problems :p

its 5% on top of initial wave and a learn wave ... it amounts to 4 waves, excessive request at best not to mention its completelly uncontrolled situation, whats to stop them from making botomfeeding hits for minimal honor and start with low honor provs to boot ?
You are right about us loosing more than that allready, its a shame they didnt make actual reasonable demand before we rolled over. After that happened its really hard for us to take you seriously and belive you want solution. If 20k land and 10 honor discrepency combined with moral satisfaction isnt enough I really dont know what is.

We cant prove them refusing any form of compensation last age, sadly that part of forums is lost so anyone who wants can play dumb and say its not truth. It dont change anything between us tho, we know what went down.
Same with diplo, even silverfox indirectly admitted to not agreeing to anything but blank cf offer. Logs you show show an actuall conversation with normal people, much like talks we have about ED in our channel, but we didnt forget frantic rants about balls that started "grudge" last age.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

They say that you never offered CF for a wave. You say that you did.

Again, I have their full logs (and I idle in their priv, so no one can have tampered with them) -- so I see parth discussing with members of the kd about offering you 2 free waves and honor on top -- why would he be doing that if you had offered him a wave?

They don't claim that they made an offer for CF. They claim that you did not (e: prior to 750 honor/day). You claim that your offer of 750 honor/day was a negotiating tactic; they would say the same about not offering anything.

as i have mentioned previously on my another post, lets assume im outright lying about making any offer or hinting about it as i have told on post #119 (i have no logs, and i dont expect ed to share relevant parts so its my word only) - why would it be our fault for not making any offers while we recieve none? i also fail to understand how 'not offering anything' is a negotiating tactic while you dont even start a negotiation?

[citadela01]

They say that you never offered CF for a wave. You say that you did.

Again, I have their full logs (and I idle in their priv, so no one can have tampered with them) -- so I see parth discussing with members of the kd about offering you 2 free waves and honor on top -- why would he be doing that if you had offered him a wave?



They don't claim that they made an offer for CF. They claim that you did not (e: prior to 750 honor/day). You claim that your offer of 750 honor/day was a negotiating tactic; they would say the same about not offering anything. Note that that log is 2 days prior to the offer of 750 honor/day. Why....would they be talking about that if you had offered them a free wave for CF?

They might have discussed it, but they never offered anything, and initially they completelly refused any form of compensation, mostly i guess cause they didnt think we would follow up with our threats.

[Zauper]

They might have discussed it, but they never offered anything, and initially they completelly refused any form of compensation, mostly i guess cause they didnt think we would follow up with our threats.

Why would they discuss giving you two waves if you had offered CF for one?

[Zauper]

as i have mentioned previously on my another post, lets assume im outright lying about making any offer or hinting about it as i have told on post #119 (i have no logs, and i dont expect ed to share relevant parts so its my word only) - why would it be our fault for not making any offers while we recieve none? i also fail to understand how 'not offering anything' is a negotiating tactic while you dont even start a negotiation?

You missed me saying it: I have unfettered access to ED's priv chan. The logs of ED's private channel are my own. The vast majority of well...everything.. winds up there. Diplo with you, diplo with prot, diplo with atlene, etc. They aren't sharing anything unique with me that I've posted thus far (though they've also gone through all their various logs to share ingame messages as well) -- and if you were curious, no offer there either.

You can be at fault because it seems like the reason you're getting support is because of a story you're telling folks about last age wherein you offered a CF for a wave, and ED said no. That discussion, as far as I can verify, never happened. That means you've lied to your allies to get them to support you.

You can say they should have made an offer, they can say you should have made an offer. Whatever. That doesn't matter -- ultimately, they can say you didn't make an acceptable offer this age (and it seems like you haven't). And you're back at square 0, no?

I do, however, have a lot of logs of your kd saying that you can't just decide a conflict is done, both kds need to agree. Yet you seem to say the opposite here. Can you reconcile that? There is nothing tied to those messages about the magic of offering a wave.

[LoRD_SaMPuaN]

Why would they discuss giving you two waves if you had offered CF for one?

i have just seen the log you have pasted, which was a few days into conflict.. 'you need to offer something for a cf, like a free wave or a number of free hits or something along those lines' - i had told this to them on first days, so its possible they thought the price wouldve increased the further the conflict keeps going..

[Zauper]

i have just seen the log you have pasted, which was a few days into conflict.. 'you need to offer something for a cf, like a free wave or a number of free hits or something along those lines' - i had told this to them on first days, so its possible they thought the price wouldve increased the further the conflict keeps going..

Do you have a log where you said this? The phrase 'you need to offer' to returning no hits. (and april 6th is 3 days from the start of you hitting them, so it would be the first days)

[Tedurur]

i have just seen the log you have pasted, which was a few days into conflict.. 'you need to offer something for a cf, like a free wave or a number of free hits or something along those lines' - i had told this to them on first days, so its possible they thought the price wouldve increased the further the conflict keeps going..

How illogical is that "Oh, they are razing us and trying to raze kill provinces, lets offer them more than what they asked for in the first place to stop this"? That doesnt make much sense to me at least.