Sparta hitting on CD

[Shai]

Shai could you msg me on mirc i like to get more information about how the TAXING was done from sparta, they are atm asking us for CF and will ofc have to resive the same response as they give others.
its only fair.

I dont use IRC anymore but Bart asked for 10% land, 2.5k acres. Not an unresonable demand but our hands were tied from other deals so we couldnt give them free land at the time. Neither did Panthira want too. Then I approached him again after they waved us into fort asking if he would settle with the land he took in the initial wave. Now he claimed we blanket MS them, even if it was just 5 MS on 5 smaller humans, and the price had now gone up (didnt say how much thou). We then started retal warring them. About 4 days later after they had taken alot of land and made one player quit I contacted Bart again and said the madness should stop and we should CF before things got too infected, but then he said that "Any CF terms now would be so severe that your KD will no doubt refuse them" making it clear he wasnt really interested in a CF. Another 2 days later I tried messaging Bart again but then he made it clear Panthira should be the one contacting him, not me.

Im not sure if any other CF offers were made by Bart to Panthira in between all of this. Im not even on slack alot these days.

In retrospect we should of course just had given them the 2.5k land. I was under the impression Bart would be resonable even if there was some fighting before final CF talks. He was also very polite and not hard to talk to ingame before the fighting started, but its pretty clear there is alot of anger vs Panthira burried deep down there and he doesnt mind trashing a kd for 2 weeks over 2.5k acres. Had I known there was so much bitter hate there I would have tried to convince Panthira to just give him 2.5k land :P

Your kd doesnt really have to worry thou, he is far to busy razing us, even into war and eventually his CFs will expire. The other top kds will only let him sit there and explore freely protected by a fake hostile for so long. Eventually the race for Spartan acres will start. BB getting the PI slice have already put pressure on the other 3.

Shai i believe you are misunderstanding.

Its legit hostile Sparta vs CD, however when CD decide to keep meter high + random out, CD cannot complain that hits are coming in from the outside, that doesn't make the hostile any less legit/active, it just means now CD has to deal with hits from the outside because they put themselves in a position where they themselves don't respect that they are hostile.

If Sparta starts randoming out, then yes Sparta is a legit target too for randoms in, but as far as i know Sparta are not randoming elsewhere.

CD can keep their hostile tag but then they should honour it themselves and not hit out..

It was a legit hostile for a long time. Outsiders had nothing to do with it. But when one of the kds have dropped from being 50% of the other kds size to like 30%, unresonable CF tems noone can possible accept have been made, and the kd arent hitting back anymore and the other kd is just razing to be spiteful while exploring its t/ms and some potential cows (I see this as the same as randoming btw), its a pretty one sided hostile.

Otherwise any kd with an expiring CF could just start waving a kd half their size, present CF terms the other kd couldnt possible accept (like 40-45% land for CF) and then just explore and be protected by said "hostile".

At some point the hostile ends in my book when only one kd is fighting. Others might view it differently and it is within their right to be wrong :)


On the other hand. If Sparta presented a resonable CF offer, like something back for the excessive razing and the pked provinces, a notice period and a long duration CF (like year 10 or 12) so CD doesnt risk being powerplayed in a few weeks again and CD still refuse to CF to keep meter points on Sparta as a threat. Then I would agree Sparta have the right to take whatever steps they need to take to get a CF and close down the meter. I do however believe razing into war is over the top here. They could just wait for the war to be over to resume razing and force the CF.

[umajon911]

I would take on a debate. We are at war, correct.

We have declared WAR on Draft Punks!

You have our terms, Bart. Every day those go up. You have 30 minutes to decide, which is longer than you gave us for your "Free CF".

Clear FW!!! RAZE INTO WAR!!!

[Mike^]

I say thank you for info, will be put to good use.

[umajon911]

My kingdom needs something to do, other than getting beat on by Sparta. It's lame as sh*t what they are doing. Plus inviting others to hit, calling me a multi, making preposterous demands of a kingdom that got into the top ten only by WW, and isn't competing for rank. I love how the Utopian community blames me for this. Bart has you all eating right out of his hands. Yummy? Bart treats for his pets.
Aranfein, my turn to warn you. Don't get too cozy with him. We care for Fluffy, and feel a lot of remorse for hurting your kd 2 ages ago, but you never saw that on WA, as it shows messages unread. I do not feel bad for Zulu though. ;)
We're buds now anyway. Huh, Zulu? (bait)

spartan of megatron (Bartans) invaded The Queen is Here (CivilD) and captured 42 acres of land

EL OH EL.... Bish... you cray cray!

[Shai]

I say thank you for info, will be put to good use.

If anything you now know what they deem acceptable behaviour.

[Palem]

It's nice to see TFC's MAD tactics being used. Although jumping into war was a mistake. I recommend resetting dead provinces into Avian and Elf to maximize your FB'ing and razing potential.

Did CD actually have any terms that they would agree to a CF for?

@Bart stop calling it a free CF. It's not free and you gain something you want by CF'ing. It comes off as dickish and that's not the attitude that's gonna get you a cf

[WhoIsHawk]

I vote in favor of Podcast - Panthira vs Bart

Also, I'm still not sure on the whole Hostile thing here.
Is it true that CD asked Sparta for CF at the very start before any hits?
Is it also true that Sparta offered CF in those initial talks for a set amount of land, i.e. some % of CDs then current land?
Is it true that CD refused giving away land for CF with Sparta?
Is it true that Sparta then waved CD to force them to accept the CF terms, which included free unretalled hits, i.e. free land for CF?
Is it true that CD refused to give additional free acres for CF?
Is it true that Sparta continued to hit CD demanding higher and higher land for a CF?
Is it also true that CD was retalling hits on Sparta and hitting other kds?

If these circumstances are true, does it constitute a mutual hostile if the kingdom receiving the wave (CD) randoms out each real day (hitting multiple diff kds each day I'm told)?

Also, can someone please explain the rule that requires a kingdom being waved to accept a CF to close out relations with the aggressor kd?

In my view, it appears that Spartans took an initiative against CD with the expectation that they(CD) needed a CF from them(Spartans) and would do anything to get it. It seems clear that CD didn't need a CF from Spartans and are willing to ignore the beatings that Spartans are dishing out to move on with their own age.
Honestly, I don't see the justification Spartans has to hit into CD's current war now.
Correct me if I am wrong, because I certainly don't claim to be right, but it looks like it breaks down pretty simply to this:
CD asked Sparta for CF
Sparta asked for land for CF
CD refused
Sparta hits CD
CD retals Sparta and randoms other kds
Sparta continues to push demands for CF
CD continues to decline CF terms, and make random grabs
CD goes to war

Was it ever a 1v1 conflict? (I am ignoring Fort stance of CD because you can't expect a kd in Fort to be random'ing out of fort)
If it was never a 1v1 conflict, where's the justification for the aggressor to follow the other kd into a war?

[umajon911]

Pan... Where to start. Ok number 1. Don't be dumb. What I don't get is that you get waved, refuse CF, and demand acres back. Dumb. Even im not that dumb. 17 days...17 days youre eating hits lol. Fake tagging hostile, another dumb move and then you try and hide behind it. Everything you have done this age, and past 2, is coming back to haunt you now. What you should have done was accept the CF then hit Sparta back, even if you DB Bart(like me last age) and hit him when it would hurt the most. Strategy was never your forte. As for you finishing "Top 10". I was in your slack channel with Bart. I saw what was really going on. Hiding behind all the lies is all you do. Typical...

As for Bart. Me and Bart don't see eye to eye on damn near everything. With that being said, what he is doing I believe he is 100% within his rights. You screwed the pooch on this one Pan! You should just suck it up and walk away with what little pride if any you have left.

[Palem]

@ hawk

Using a war to dodge a conflict has never been a socially acceptable tactic. If we're fighting and you get into a fight with someone else, it's not my fault you've picked a fight with 2 people. We're done when we agree to be done.

[Band of Horses]

@Shai
At what size difference is it not a hostile anymore? And how long between one kd retaliating (While still not cfing and keeping hostile meter) for the hostile to be no longer there? I didn't realize there were clearly defined rules on this, I was more under the impression of what Palem said "We're done when we agree to be done" I didn't know one side could say hey this hostile is over. The only way I know that to be the case would be if all 25 provinces delete or defect leaving a 0 prov kingdom (a clearly defined 0, anything > 0 being still hostile)

[Shai]

@Shai
At what size difference is it not a hostile anymore? And how long between one kd retaliating (While still not cfing and keeping hostile meter) for the hostile to be no longer there? I didn't realize there were clearly defined rules on this, I was more under the impression of what Palem said "We're done when we agree to be done" I didn't know one side could say hey this hostile is over. The only way I know that to be the case would be if all 25 provinces delete or defect leaving a 0 prov kingdom (a clearly defined 0, anything > 0 being still hostile)

There is no rule book. Anyone can have their own view on this. Usually a rule of thumb many used back when the game still matterd was 12h of no retaliations from one side (this have been discussed lots of times in these forums, Im supriced they all evaded a forum warrior like you). Basically the time it took to get armies back home. I got waved plenty of times just 3-4h after waving another kd with the words "we asked the kd you waved, they arent gonna war you or retal so there is no hostile" without there being any alliance interfeerence (because we usually handled the problem ourselves anyway). So I guess back then for many simply no intent of fighting back was enough to make it not a hostile.

I have no clue what people use these days? Maybe Palems "its over when I say its over"? But size got little to do with whether its a hostile or not. Any kd who actively fights back is making it an active hostile (thus why so many use the word active hostile when they mean a legit hostile). So if someone is inactive in a hostile and not fighting back maybe its one sided and not a real hostile then?

If you wanna discuss this current case then I would say when one kd hit 30% of the other kds size, cant hit back a single province, havent hit back for over a day and the other kd are exploring half their provinces peacefully at no risk, then the hostile is over.

ps im off to bed now so wont repsond for some time :) ds

[Shai]

double post...

[citadela01]

I'd say exploring tm/calfs while other kd isnt fighting back constitutes dodge.

[Shai]

I'd say exploring tm/calfs while other kd isnt fighting back constitutes dodge.

Yeah there have been cases before when one kd was claiming hostile and others deemed it not a hostile simply cause they were exploring up provinces in peace enjoying some sort of total protection both from people outside the hostile, and inside the hostile (cause the kd they claimed to be hostile with couldnt touch them at all).

[Aranfein]

Lies BoH, she was protected too when all the leaders burned when she was on trial for being a witch, she set the fire and she was only 1 walking out and getting on the horse to lead the army.