Can we talk about IP blocks?

[JeffT]

At the end of the day, while we are open to other solutions, the advantages of IP block are significant (time savings, prevents problem in the first place, etc) and as far as we have been able to determine, nothing else is capable of replacing it at this time. If you have a specific open source solution in mind that we could implement, we would be happy to look at it and compare it to the current solutions.

While there are some drawbacks, we find them to be minor given that the total number of players effected by it is small relative to the number of problems is prevents - and many of those who complain about it (though none that I know of in this thread) - have been actioned in the past for running multiple accounts, a sign that frankly it is effective.

[chadde]

At the end of the day, while we are open to other solutions, the advantages of IP block are significant (time savings, prevents problem in the first place, etc) and as far as we have been able to determine, nothing else is capable of replacing it at this time. If you have a specific open source solution in mind that we could implement, we would be happy to look at it and compare it to the current solutions.

While there are some drawbacks, we find them to be minor given that the total number of players effected by it is small relative to the number of problems is prevents - and many of those who complain about it (though none that I know of in this thread) - have been actioned in the past for running multiple accounts, a sign that frankly it is effective.

Thank you for a good reply.

There are many very minor improvements you could make quite easily. For example, why would you block me from ambushing someone that my wife has attacked previously?

What does blocking achieve in war? If the whole kingdom is chaining someone, why does it even matter if one guy is running two provs or if it's a couple? Keep the block to stop me and her to trade aid if you like, but why can't we hit someone that we're at war with? We're not hitting out, we're not hitting farms, we are very clearly participating in a war.

[Palem]

Because participating in a war isn't an excuse to allow people to cheat...?

[Thunder TA]

Palem for the win

[chadde]

Because participating in a war isn't an excuse to allow people to cheat...?

what do you mean? If the block prevented any outside hits instead and just let you hit the enemy you're warring, how is that a problem?

And also, you completely ignored my question about ambushes.

[chadde]

Palem for the win

Wow!
Such eloquence!
What a strong message!
Thank you so much for this!
You've made my day!
You clearly know what's up!
You're really contributing!
Thunder for the win!
#ModFanboysForLife

[Palem]

what do you mean? If the block prevented any outside hits instead and just let you hit the enemy you're warring, how is that a problem?

And also, you completely ignored my question about ambushes.

I didn't respond to the ambush question because I don't disagree that blocking ambushes is bad.

As far as the other comment, you asked why it mattered if it was a couple or 1 person playing 2 accounts. It's because cheating isn't acceptable regardless if you're in war or not. The rules don't suddenly stop applying because two kingdoms are in a specific stance and fighting each other.

The devs have tried to make it possible for couples or people living together to play with each other. I played with a married couple for quite a few ages after these blocks were put in place and I never found them to be that big of a burden when trying to plan things out. One played TM, the other played attacker. The TM wouldn't op the chain target (or whoever the attacker was set to attack) and they just needed to find an intermediary for aid. Was absolutely no problem aside from the occasional error where we messed up and had to switch plans around a little. Having 2 couples I wouldn't imagine would be all that inconvenient. Having 3 couples would be where things would start getting complicated, but at that point in a 22 player kingdom that's over 1/4 of your whole kingdom that you're trying to plan around.

My point being the bans are a minor inconvenience to any legitimate couples trying to play together. If a couple wants to play separately they'll face essentially no bans barring the rare occasion that they target the same random province or their kingdoms try to war each other. I'm more than comfortable with this level of inconvience for couples if it means keeping cheaters in check and not allowing rampant cheating to spoil the environment like it did for so long. Could things be better? Sure. Do we need to scrap everything because it's not allowing legitimate people to play together? Absolutely not.

[Goodwitch]

So say there was an awesome math teacher somewhere that decided to make utopia part of his/her curriculum...they sign up 24 High School kids to play in a kingdom

how about a fraternity/sorority

a study group that needs some stress relief

a d&d group that gets together frequently and wants to add something different

a game oriented store (e.g. games workshop) that decides to form an employee team in utopia

the family that plays games together

some more likely to happen than others. but that is just a tiny fraction of the market you are shutting out if you don't look for alternatives. No one said to scrap everything. The thread is suggesting to discuss and find new and better solutions for the future.
Looking over the list of what is banned (such as ambush which is a defensive measure following an aggressive action by someone else) is a start.
Finding ways to catch people circumventing the IP ban to cheat is another.

[Chris121]

Although I agree with Chadde's general point about a desire to find a better solution, I agree with Palem's point about war not being an excuse for cheating. The block is there to stop people playing multiple accounts. Removing the block in war would facilitate people playing multiple accounts in war. It doesn't matter that the whole KD is chaining someone - it is still not permissible to allow multiple accounts to be played by the same person when chaining someone. So unless we have a different solution, we need to keep the block.

That said, I have found it harder to work around the block than Palem has found. Yes, ideally I would like 1 to be TM and 1 to be attacker and that helps a lot. However, that's problematic in itself because we don't want many TMs and already have multiple other people wanting to play TM. Sure, we can make a choice and say no to someone or accept more TMs than we want, but Chadde's starting point (with which I agree) is that having to make such a choice is bad for the game because we (or at least I) am less likely to accept a new recruit to the KD who lives/works with someone else because it is just going to add another person who wants/needs to be TM. Additionally, we want the TMs to use offence on the chained targets too, which can't happen with the block.

Chadde - it sounds like you are a bit frustrated with some of the replies, and understandably so. But it would help if we can focus on possible solutions/improvements because it sounds like you can probably think of some. I have no idea how it can be done better but I accept that we need something in place to prevent/limit cheating, so aside from pointing out where it causes issues I can't help make it better.

[Korp]

So say there was an awesome math teacher somewhere that decided to make utopia part of his/her curriculum...they sign up 24 High School kids to play in a kingdom

how about a fraternity/sorority

a study group that needs some stress relief

a d&d group that gets together frequently and wants to add something different

a game oriented store (e.g. games workshop) that decides to form an employee team in utopia

the family that plays games together

some more likely to happen than others. but that is just a tiny fraction of the market you are shutting out if you don't look for alternatives. No one said to scrap everything. The thread is suggesting to discuss and find new and better solutions for the future.
Looking over the list of what is banned (such as ambush which is a defensive measure following an aggressive action by someone else) is a start.
Finding ways to catch people circumventing the IP ban to cheat is another.

And apparently the only time they can play utopia is when they suppose to do something different.

[Palem]

I'm happy to discuss solutions to problems with the current system. It's just a large amount of that discussion consists of "IP ban is dumb and doesn't work." Despite proof that it works in there not being widespread cheating and a moderately low amount of complaints.

Not saying those small amount of complaints aren't legitimate. Honestly if I lived in a country with 1 IP provider and I had to contact them to explicitly ask for a unique IP, I'd probably just not play.

@goodwitch call me old school, but utopia is supposed to be a social game. Meeting, interacting, and trying to cooperate with a bunch of random people is most of the fun of utopia (imo). Playing in a big group of people you already know completely and utterly defeats that.

[Thunder TA]

Palem you can explain this to chadde all day and he not going to agree because he wants it his way. A lot of that in he world now days .hes been told by multiple people here , game mods as well as a Dev and he's still argueing to change it to something he's been told won't work. As to Goodwitch if they are teaching upoopo I'm also hoping the same instructors would read the rules prior themselves

[Skank]

There are 3 IP's available on my street, Spectrum is 16 bucks a month. You both have a smart phone? Work at diff places? You are not trying hard enough to play together. Go to Sister's house to teach her. Have her phone you while she post her stats in Poo. We's so ghetto we borrows WIFI

So you did not read my post. Use 2 different IP's at home. Use your Phone. Play from work. Teach Sister at her home.

All 3 of you deserve to be CRUSHED by the Lords of Utopia for being obstinate. If I knew your loc and prov names my 15 mate ghetto would crush you. xD

[Goodwitch]

So you did not read my post. Use 2 different IP's at home. Use your Phone. Play from work. Teach Sister at her home.

All 3 of you deserve to be CRUSHED by the Lords of Utopia for being obstinate. If I knew your loc and prov names my 15 mate ghetto would crush you. xD

no , you didn't get it. It is not about chadde and his issue. Check the bugs forum for example. What you are suggesting is working around the system which is not always possible and not everywhere possible.

Korp, we have a kickass math teacher in middle school that has the 8th graders do stocks (pretend of course but they use the actual stock market numbers), sports betting etc to teach the kids that math can be fun and that they can use it some day. Playing Utopia without all the tools could be that also.
Many companies have sports teams, why not a utopia team if there is interest?

Palem, I agree that meeting people is a big chunk of what makes utopia utopia. But often it is easier to get people to try things if their friends are doing it too, it takes the edge off. Everyone starts some place.

And no Thunder, while you are waving your pompoms to gain browny points, chadde is actually trying to work on a solution, among other things he is doing for the game. Sometimes it's good to brainstorm though to get an even better end product.
What are you doing to make the game better? Oh yea, you try to squash any new ideas that come up. You are actually more annoying than Korp, and you shouldn't take that as a compliment.

And to all those interested in possibly finding a better solution some day, make suggestions. What does it have to do and how could that be achieved, what are the issues most pressing.

[coss]

The problem in some cases is that there are flaws of the IP blocking. I posted in Bugs reports and got shut down by Bishop in a very annoying way.

http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...is-frustrating

It's not like if anyone wants to have multies is a freaking science to do it. If I want to play 25 provs myself I can easy do it without Bishop smell it. With the tech today is not even expensive to do it. I find the obtuse answers from the game owners frustrating. This will not lead to increase in players base if we're pushing out friends being able to play together. Why make the invites system if you can't get people using same internet provider in a town play together unless they start with disadvantage compared to others? I asked for a simple thing to white list people that can prove they are not multi. Me and my friends can easy do it for example. Don;t get me wrong but 6 people make for a freaking chain ...