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Well after really thinking over these changes, which I more or less like, I think I would throw out there that I think Avian would be better as a A/m. I do like the concept of Avians as a thief, but, its not very practical.
So just to be clear: I'm suggesting giving bonuses to Avian that make it A/m and not A/t.
I agree that FB is stronger than it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azartyn
Faeries don't have access to MS, but either way I'm not sure if I'd call it OP.
NS is by no means OP.
My views on honor are clear. I'd rather see it removed. It's a broken, stupid mechanic. But hey if they want to throw an honor penalty on Faery, whatever. The stupid faery honor whores should be penalized.Quote:
Why not limit what the fay has access to as well as an honor penalty(-30% honor since that seems to be the bonus you get on everything else). It seems that its only going to get worse next age if what I read that caps are going to be raised.
I agree that if something is OP, call it OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggis
Faeries aren't OP.
Then kindly explain to me how Faeries are OP jss. Because not one person has been able to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Snowstorm
Too much defense? Conquest+Bouncewaves
Too good at thievery? Halfling is better
Too good at magic? Elf is better
Unstopable? Hardly
Too good of honor whores and honor produces absolutely OP numbers? I'm happy to agree to that. Honor sucks, but that doesn't mean Faery is OP. It means honor is OP and broken.
the final proof of faery being Op is that TFC has not lost a war yet! :P
uhm...Quote:
Originally Posted by Azartyn
FB is available to everyone. NS is available to everyone.
MS isnt even available to faeries unless they are Mystics. it is NOT a racial spell.
Faeries only have racial spells (+the ones everyone else has)
MS is not too powerful and it does not need to be nerfed! If FB is OP -- it is not by much. T/M mages need to stop be targeted for nerf action. Of course I'm not against balance and if everyone gets nerfed in a balanced way: I do not necessarily make complaints. So what I am trying to articulate is: I am voicing my fear that people are tying to make T/M so weak that they just get trashed with little to no inconvenience to the attackers.
At 3000 acres a single spell of MS capable of destroying 400-600 elites and specs + equal amount of peasants each tic is balanced? MS alone ensures a province won't recover. It's absurdly powerful.
I don't mind having a spell like that in the game, but I would suggest increasing it's runecost by 300% while slightly lowering MV rune costs.
Anyway I love the proposed game mechanic changes. Miss a bit of flavour changes to races/personas though.
Would really like final changes so I can get started planning next age out.
I think 95% of players would say they could live with faery if they couldn't choose mystic, or if mystic was nerfed for faeries only; so they did not have access to MS spell in its present configuration- any other province has a weakness to be reasonably exploited and allows the team to take them down.
As a fae mystic for a number of ages. I can tell you I am nearly unkillable, by any non-SK.. .Your thieves can barely get through to ever steal my runes-4 tpa+ TD+ CS, your evles can't often if ever LS me between my own mods and RM, I am realistically unbreakable and if you chain me early in the war, I still have me dragon fodder ospecs for ambush and manna for LL, heck I don't mind getting land dropped a bit :) and suiciding on me opens most other players up for at least double if not triples. The 5-6 prewar massacres I am used to, but trust me my TB is + millions, and I am expecting it. I run 8 wpa, prior to war, then get fed troops and gc back to rebuild my thieves and can live with dspecs. Count and its mods are fairly reasonable in utopia.
- maybe no honor bonuses might slow me down.
Faery... is... supposed... to... be... unkillable.
You have to take it up with the devs whether a race that's designed to be unkillable is good for the game. Until then there's no real argument on the matter of Faeries being breakable. If Faeries are nerfed slightly so that they are easily breakable, their value to a kingdom drops to practically nothing, unless they gain attack capabilities back - which would necessitate a stronger elite offense, probably 4/6, and swapping -generals for -10% population or some other penalty.
Palem you ignore so many things.
Faery not OP? You continously say that honor is broken and so on, but no other race other can gain and keep a hold of honor as good as Faery... Yes there are other races on the honor charts too but 60%+ are Faery. There is a reason WHY they are able to get that honor and keep it, it is because compared to other races they are almost impossible to break on all fronts.... They have great DPA with their Elite which makes it so you have to suicide as an attacker to break them which almost noone does because it just isn't worth the hassle, that is seen EVERY war... Faery always go ignored because it just isn't worth trying to op them. They have awesome WPA and TPA, yes two other races have 20% better WPA and TPA but in almost 90% of cases they end up having the same TPA and WPA if not the Faery having more and with access to all spells giving the Faery even more defence with the likes of CS and RM etc, and hell even if either of those races did manage to get a higher TPA or WPA they will be out matched in the other weakness with Halfling having weaker WPA and Elf weaker TPA not to mention the fact their DPA would start to suffer then too!
Everyone keeps giving you examples why they are OP, YES you CAN break them but given how damn difficult it is no one ever bothers which (like I said) happens every war I have been in (5 this age)… Our Faeries are ignored and so are the other KDs Faeries because each and every time it is agreed they are simply too difficult to break on all fronts, so instead of waste our time and risk getting pummelled for suiciding, or for our T/Ms spending countless Stealth and Mana failing it is all simply directed at attackers/breakable provinces.
And screaming that honor needs to be changed isn't the answer, honor doesn't make any other race other than Faery super OP.
You can't hope to attract new players and keep them when you can't get final changes out far enough in advance of an age starting. People these days are used to most other games communicating changes, no matter how small, well in advance of them being deployed to production.
Bashar - This statement is a bit out of line. Grow up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
New players normally enter the game having seen the stats for only a couple minutes. I like getting them early, but freeze time is certainly enough time to get what's what. Everyone has same amount of time to look at it before protection starts anyway. Atleast as long as your done with recruiting.
Honor was originally intended as a t/m thing, due to t/ms complaining about how they couldn't compete on the land charts against attackers - this was also when no one wanted to fight in wars.
Province honor is a nub trap for attackers, always has been. I can't understand why heavy attackers get so worked up over their province honor... only on a global kingdom level does honor matter for attackers in the long term.
Again, if people don't want to break Faeries because there are better options, that doesn't make the race OVERPOWERD!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Faeries as they're designed are supposed to be unbreakable. Why do people want to argue about Faeries being OVERPOWERD!?!?!?!?!?!?!? without suggesting a way to make Faeries a viable attacking option? That's the problem, the fact that you have a race that's designed to not get hit - even though they do get hit and can get hit, in war and out. Taking down Faeries is something with a high initial cost, that pays off much later when a kingdom has no provinces safe from attacks and no provinces that are safe from ops.
Is having unbreakable provinces that can op with impunity a good thing for the game? That's the question that should be asked, not trying to make arbitrary nerfs while maintaining Faery's role as a dedicated t/m, making them ineffective at everything. I think it's only a problem with kingdoms running all Faeries... in warring kingdoms, running Faeries is a choice to have a province that can't be touched easily, sacrificing some offensive output for defense. The game shouldn't be a total offense-fest that comes down to who is able to send out their armies faster... that's a boring-ass game, based on the ages where that was the case.
I'll just add 2c on fae topic.
I feel its too hard to op cause of self spells. Tweakin faes mod tpa/wpa is missin the point imo.
Atm its setup as best all round t/m, extreme deff level and almost unopable if played right. Remove Reflect magic, Magic shield and Clear sight from it. It will become suspectable to well played and equaly pumped elfs/halfers in thier respectivge specialty just as its suspectable to well played heavy hitter in theirs.
CS is particulary important as it gets EXTREMELY effective on hight tpa provinces.
Nooblet, you're right. Faeries are designed to be UB, if not UB, better options to attack someone else. If enough wts and tpa is decent, a rogue would find faeries not worth their stealth if failing every other time. While mystics (nonfaery) have no shot and not worthwhile to waste mana trying to fb a faery mystic. And attackers can't break them 24 hrs into war. Those that can, have better options on a hybrid, orc, whatever.
So to sum it up, a race designed to be immune to attackers, rogues, mystics, while sitting there pretty to t/m people to death isn't OP. That was last age, now with 10% pop penalty gone it made them 10% more powerful. What the heck are we flaming about ... don't get it ....
I don't see a viable kingdom without a few faeries. But I can see a kingdom being viable without any other race ... Maybe thats an indicator of how "op" a class is.
Please, let me know if you're a top kingdom and plan on not running a few faeries, I would love to know why ....
This is hogwash. Honor/fame was used originally to encourage hitting within nw range rather than bottom feeding which used to be the way to grow. Honor is great for attackers, it just requires a balanced province. It is only a trap if you play in a weak kingdom where you will be singled out for having honor.Quote:
Originally Posted by nooblet
No, having provinces that are nearly invincible is not good for the game. This has been stressed repeatedly by most great kingdoms (bio, sanct, rage, ghetto cats, snakes have all said something to the effect). The idea that people wouldn't run t/ms if they could get hit is absolutely absurd. For like 25 of the last 30 ages they were always breakable and people ran them. Wars between equally matched kingdoms are more often decided by ops and Econ advantage than by an attacking advantage. Often being a better attacker just makes you landfat.
At the end of the day it doesn't really affect top kingdoms that much if a race is overpowered other than making the game boring and stale as many run identical set ups. Most good kingdoms can see when a race is overly strong and use it to the best advantage.
Back to halfers
Elves have a +1 defense spec which is a total of five. Halfers have only a four both in elites and spec. Humans, while having the same elite defensive value and four point spec do have an overall increase in population to compensate for it. Halfers do not. Without something, halfers will get crushed all age long.
Now to the op issue. It seems to me we have always had something op in Utopia, some more so than others. Finding that out and concentrating on it is part of the game. It does appear that the devs are trying to bring back more hybrids rather than just heavy attackers and faery T/Ms. It would be interesting if a fast suicider A/T Avian kd could NS an opposing kd down enough quickly enough to win a war. And there are other options.
So, let the strategy begin. It looks like these will be the final changes for races or close to it. The "final" changes will probably be more in the form of "filling in the blanks" about the war/relation system.
I was around (sorta) when honor was introduced... it was very much a t/m thing. No one warred then. Outside of a few provinces that could game the honor system to their favor, most attackers were lucky to hold on to any rank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
I remember not too long ago t/ms were considered dead to the game, up until Faery was brought back. This was what, 2-3 years ago? And before that, back when raze destroyed acres and hybrid was nearly impossible to play due to ME being tied to draft rate, t/ms were only barely accepted due to offense levels being somewhat lower than they are now. Faeries were about as breakable then as they will be next age, due to the fundamental offense creep in the game being unchanged. Only issue is that the rest of the server gets doubletapped now as a matter of course, since attackers have way too little defense and offense has gone bananas. Faeries having so much more defense is a consequence of the level of offense creep in the game.Quote:
No, having provinces that are nearly invincible is not good for the game. This has been stressed repeatedly by most great kingdoms (bio, sanct, rage, ghetto cats, snakes have all said something to the effect). The idea that people wouldn't run t/ms if they could get hit is absolutely absurd. For like 25 of the last 30 ages they were always breakable and people ran them. Wars between equally matched kingdoms are more often decided by ops and Econ advantage than by an attacking advantage. Often being a better attacker just makes you landfat.
I agree that it would be better for Faery's role to be redefined... probably as a turtle attacker with some economic drawbacks, similar to what human is now but with less offense and more t/m power/defense. That would turn off the debate and still leave t/m provinces a possibility. Halfer and Human would have to be tweaked.
Halfers have a 4/5 army...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolgil
The Faery thing, they should probably be toned down in ops strength, so that Elf/Halfer have more advantage in damage output, and Faery is relegated to more defense. Something like removing the spell strength bonus, nerfing wpa/tpa to +25%. Then it's a decision to run Faeries that have good defense and reasonable tpa/wpa, or Elf/Halfers that can attack more and have better damage output.
Or just rearrange the races on short notice, and let the chips fall where they may.
I'd like to see aggression on halflings again to help compensate their short comings vs Elf. Elf has comparable op strength and a slightly stronger front loading army (higher offense, same defense). Halflings have the 2/2 soldiers, but having 3/1 soldiers would make their weaker offense worthwhile by having more durability/sustain during war.
I'd also like to see Faeries toned down their WPA/TPA mods to 15-25%. Having a mod *at all* is VERY strong, because it is compounded with science. Even 15% will make them notably stronger than any other race (barring Elves/Halfers).
Quote:
Originally Posted by reQi
Did you even read my post? Comprehension please. I said Fays were not OP but SPELLS were. Thanks for playing. Next contestant please. Not to mention the caps are being raised.
Faeries
+ 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)
+ 20% Sabotage damage*
+ 30% WPA and TPA
- 3 generals
Access to All Racial Spells
Elite: 3/6, 800gc, 6NW
Yes... are you.Quote:
Originally Posted by AceOfFrag
An attacker needs 50% of your defense to break you.
Then one hit causes another, which causes another, which causes another, so on and so forth.
If I were running a normal kd not one spot would be reserved for a TM. TMs are useless, wastes of space. Their best qualities are that they're good honor and land dumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnguyen1229
faeries (after 12 hours of war) can't be broken in any way. seems a bit imba.
They're doing it wrong.
encouraging to know you're taking an unbiased approach to racial equality.
I've never claimed I'm not biased. It doesn't matter how hard I try to remain unbiased, I will always want faeries to be better.
That doesn't mean what I say is wrong though. TMs are bad.
don't u lead an entire kingdom of them?
The problem with having game changes posted way past when folks expect them without any sort of explanation is that it fosters an environment where rumors flourish. For example, some of the rumors I have heard...
-Bishop is in Jail and no one will put up the $100 bail
-Bishop has been fired, there are no changes, and the game will be cancelled tomorrow
-the Irish Union of Programmers wont allow work on the weekend so we have to wait until late monday for the devs to find their way in to work and post something
-there will actually be 187 fresh new racial changes that look nothing at all like the proposed changes and Bishop is afraid to post them
Im not saying any or all of these are true, it is just stuff that is making its way around the irc channels I hang in. Some folks even think that their exceedingly low expectation levels are not being met but many would disagree with that I think.
I think everyone is wondering... what kind of drugs are you on? I have never heard or wondered any of those things. I don't think anyone else has ever wondered those things either.
But then again many of us see Bishop on IRC and posting on the forums or use the sense to PM him on the forum.
It will be up before the age starts (with the short downtime it's going to be up soon or when age ends and during downtime), otherwise you can't have ages with new changes -.- There shouldn't be major differences between potential and final changes, maybe a buff/debuff and an elite value change which only affects race preferences. Generally the potential changes is a good enough skeleton to base kd strats on and you shouldn't have everything set entirely in stone but a general idea of what your doing, anyway you get 3 days to reset your race/perso and have a discussion using whatever means your kd uses.
Overall I think the racial changes are pretty balanced, and more emphasis needs to be on other mechanics that have been popping up.
actually bishop hasent been on sense early saturday.
SOMETHING must have hapend to him! :o
Yes he got stuck under a can of pink paint while he was redecorating his bathroom this weekend. :P
Couldn't just stop at saying it was out of line. Had to add the personal attack. Good job!Quote:
Originally Posted by tiggis
Bishop said to use this thread to comment about the changes. That was me expressing my opinion of the changes. There's no downside to having final changes out sooner than what's happening, so why do you feel the need to chastise me for making a comment that's for the betterment of the game?
Possible Faery tweak...
Faery:
+25% wpa and tpa
+20% sabotage and magic damage
War horses fight on Defense
-20% population growth
Elite: 3/5, 700gc, 5nw
Spellbook: All spells (can cast MS without Mystic)
Since we are being technical... Your comment was not about the changes per se, but about the timing of the changes and their impact on mythical new players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I assumed by the post that you were acting immature and that you were much more mature than your post gave evidence.... I apologize for thinking you were.
Took me awhile to warm up to the idea, but horsies on the defense seem like a pretty good spot for faeries. It'll give Halflings a gentle leg up (there'll be a target to steal horses from), it'll make faeries attribute more of their land to defensive buildings (stables, if they want to go that way), which'll inturn tone down their OP strength and econ...Quote:
Originally Posted by nooblet
The rest of those changes though are unnecessary. Keep them as suggested by the devs/Bishop, just swap 3/6 and -3 gens for 3/5 and horsies fight on defense.
At the same time, it makes faeries viable hybrids, too. I think it's terrible that races have negatives that remove parts of the game from them... Now we just need to tackle Orc -% OP strength and UD -science.
One possible issue with stables is that the throne room won't list defense properly, even though it should be limited to one horse per defending troop else it would be very imbalanced. Dunno if the devs want to put that kind of work into it, but it should be relatively easy.
Orc and Undead should have their penalties in place. It's a tradeoff for having the strongest and most durable offenses in the game, and Undead have had their penalty since their inception for a reason.
I know that this idea would never be implemented, mostly because it would be a courage issue. Still. I would like to play next age with no changes. zero. nada. Every kd in the game would play the coming age differently from the way they played it this age. Every kd knows (they think) exactly what went wrong and why. Of course efforts to fix things would be met with all of the other kds in the game also tweaking their kd's so most of the tweaks would be pre-countered. Many kds would just love another war with those idiots on the next island if they could find them, especially now that they dropped 2 orcs in favor of 2 dwarf mystics. Some would war more or maybe less. Some would add mage power some would reduce it. Some would come oop bigger and some smaller. I think every kd would find that their age played quite differently from this one and it could be a lot of fun trying to get things right the second time around. The only change I would make would be to give avians a nice buff like maybe +5% max pop. There are only 143 avians now and encouraging some movement to that race would change things up in many kds just enough to add some real interest. I would happily play an age that did the no change thing, I think it would be fun.