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Look at the NWPA of the provinces in the start of each of those hostiles. It is dudes on 120 nwpa vs 180/190 In some cases the top kd offers a free wave when nap expires rather then rotating build even because the KD top feeding is only taking 5k acres. The problem is that the conflict is going to slow the dicing down / force them to train. I don't think it is a topfeed/bottomfeed mechanic as much as it is that dicing is ftw and stopping is ftlQuote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
I've known your monarch for a long time, we had a pretty open dialogue the entire war. You're completely incorrect about the free wave - we wanted a war and expected you to give one. Logs are being included to give some more evidence, although half were lost to Mibbit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordrek
[11:01] <therock> who is it?
[11:02] <maximouse> hawk is a huge noob for not telling you
[11:02] <maximouse> did you not ask around in abs council?
[11:03] <therock> oh it's you?
[11:03] <therock> LOL
[11:03] <therock> nobody knew
[11:03] <maximouse> hehe:)
[11:03] <therock> so we waved
...
[11:13] <therock> if you're up for a war, should be fun
...
[11:20] <maximouse> 1 serious question though
[11:20] <maximouse> why wave a KD out of dragonrange?
[11:20] <maximouse> negates the biggest advantage you have with a bank
[11:20] <therock> biggest kd in range we could wave
[11:21] <maximouse> you NAP too much:P
[11:21] <maximouse> I was kinda expecting you guys would wait till we were in dragonrange
[11:22] <maximouse> use the bank to spit out dragons at a crazy rate
[11:23] <therock> nah, we had hostiles
[11:35] <maximouse> btw, why the half assed wave? Did you think we would be stupid enough to hand you the button>
[11:38] <therock> uh
[11:39] <therock> cuz we're awesome!
[11:39] <therock> :D
[11:39] <maximouse> lol
You guys set three separate declare dates, and then on the third one, were forced to spend half a wave max gaining just to get us into range (per Maximouse). I'm sure you had pre-war goals, but you also got screwed around by the declare range. Given this, I disagree with your first paragraph - it would have gone to war earlier, since you would have used your earlier declare date. It wouldn't have been an instant declare, but it would have been earlier.
[I lost the logs from Maximouse where he mentioned the three declare dates, here are some other fun ones.]
[22:04] <therock> war time!
[22:04] <maximouse> it is?
[22:04] <therock> yeah
[22:04] <therock> we are ready
[22:04] <therock> you can push button now
[22:04] <maximouse> lol
[22:06] <maximouse> drop 11K NW please
[22:06] <therock> why?
[22:06] <maximouse> declare range:P
[22:06] <maximouse> new feature this age
[22:06] <therock> wtf
[22:06] <therock> you got yourselves hit out of nw range?
[22:06] <maximouse> you can declare 33% upwards and 25% downwards
[22:07] <maximouse> we were at 22% your size to begin with
[22:07] <therock> gayyyyyyyyyy
[22:07] <maximouse> orcs drop harder in NW then your dwarves
[22:07] <therock> odd
[22:07] <therock> it's almost like we ran 20% hosps ON PURPOSE
[22:07] <maximouse> if you wait long enough though we will declare
...
[17:53] <maximouse> seriously, stop gaining NW:P
[17:53] <maximouse> how can we declare you if you keep getting out of range:P
My wave and retals were actually not used as a standard. I'm not sure where you got that idea - I never really mentioned my kingdom in this thread, except in hypotheticals. Given this, I disagree with your second paragraph. When asked for examples, I've given the same three throughout this thread: Sanctuary vs Snakes, HOH vs Psych Ward, Rage vs Insolence. Mercy is not mentioned.
I'm actually not angry about our war, or even angry in general. I've actually left the Mercy vs Monument conflict out of this entire discussion. I'm not sure why you think I'd be mad about it, it was a fun war. I ignore Sheister because he does not respond to statements or take the time to read things that were written. I'm more than happy to engage almost anyone in a conversation, but a dialogue is a two way street. I don't see any need to spend time repeating my points to people who refuse to read them.
As opposed to me, who takes the time to read your post and then respond to each point with concise, fact-based analysis.
I did read it, you didn't answer the question in your post :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Elitbg
How long can you force Peace on someone? Until EOA? 96h, like Fort?
Also, when can Peace be dropped? What happens if I Peace you and 3 days later we want to war?
Assuming a 96h limit (because EOA is silly), here's some points...
Affect for KD A who declare peace
1. War declare is not possible for both sides! <--- this way we avoid all trap wars. POWER MOVE, but this won't prevent all trap wars, it'll only work if the Monarch gets on and sends Peace before the other side declares, which isn't always the case in the ghetto
2. Kingdom can declare peace only if his metter is x2 less. <-- Goal is if KD A don't want to fight back to declare peace from begin not to stall kd B in retal war for few days and declare after it.
3. When KD A declare peace they loss all hostile ops. <--Its for avoid abuse for keep op KD B and refuse CF.
4. Reduce gains from attack with 10% 10% isn't much - what's the goal of this?
Result for KD B after peace is declared:
1. they keep all hostile ops if KD A keep retal.
2. +4h attack time This is waaaaaaaaaay too big
3. +10% army losses.
4. Kingdom B get option to Force in game CF for 48h. <---good way to move on for both sides. This is basically an option for one side to make a last minute wave and then lock the other side out. Make it like war - you can force CF for 48h AFTER you go
What's the goal of Peace?
So you expected us to drop you into declaration range :) Then I revoke my comment about the free acres.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
It's funny that you mention it, since we had forgot about the relative nw part until some 20 hours before we sat our declaration date and the discussions was more about the question whether we would create a dual button once at max hostile or not...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
...and you gave us a really fun week with your wave, and it was a nice war so I don't want to ruin whatever relations and good air it gave both our kids...
...however, if Maximouse told you that he had 3 different declaration dates then probably he had even though he never mentioned it to his council.
And I only picked up on the "I'll give you two more kingdoms it didn't work for - Mercy vs Monument, when we had them just under 75% of our NW. Without our bank, the kingdoms were the same size. They wanted a war, we wanted a war, we both had to deal with things to make sure we could have the war we wanted." part since it's a matter where the system worked as intended regardless of what we think of it :S You had a bank, or rather still have, which inflates your kd nw and that gives you both advantages, disadvantages and... funny problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
However, that last part can be addressed by returning to the former nw-range for the smaller part in the conflict, allowing them the "grace" to still declare even though the enemy kingdom is at most 200% their own kd nw size while retaining the protection the 75% limit downwards gives smaller kingdoms.
Propose on peace is to prevent trap wars vs 50+% bigger KDS. You want back old range but a lot pp say its bad because big kds can bully small. There come peace. Back range but let weaker kds to can make sure there wont be war.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
For how long stay peace? Its relation to both kds. Ever if its eoa its don't matter if KD B have option to end all relation with force CF in game for 48h. Maybe peace can gone automatic after both kds hostile meter decay. Its solution too.
About make wave and run with forced CF. I dont see how you can get good gains on 50% smaller kd but there is risk yes. If you think its dont work well simple force cf can be removed. None stop both monarch to offer in game CF and accept it.
Basically 25% range for declare is problem only for top kds vs top kds. Its don't involve most from time rest. None in middle rank kds (if we don't cont mercy :P) make cows. They don't sit on 35-40 draft and they don't keep farm build. So no one will go wave them when they have much other targets in middle/low rank.
Only in top land chart targets is limited. If smaller but good kd decide to wave Big kd in farm mod is suck but part from game. There is idea to make range 50% for situation like this but you still cant instant declare. You need at lest 24-48h for draft/train and they will gain in hostile more land from what can loss in 48h war after it. So all this range change wont help you much if you are in farm mode. So its make sense only if you are in war build and want to bully smaller kd.
How about 96h, just like postwar cf?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
The natural solution would be that peace, unless answered, can be dropped just like a stance after 12h with the inability to gain the button for the next 12 hours to avoid "traps" if the other kd won't stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
If kingdom B never accepts the peace offer then it automatically drops after 96 hours just like the fortified stance, making another peace offer unavailable for the next 24 hours.
If kingdom B accepts the peace then it should run the full 96 hours since it only protects them from each other.
And my own notations:
Affect for KD A who declare peace
1. War declare is not possible for both sides! <-- A viable option as long as the peace option only is available to a kingdom who is at least 100 hostile points behind at the time they wishes to press the button.
2. Kingdom can declare peace only if his metter is x2 less. <-- x amounts never work. Give them a fixed number, like whatever you gain from a full wave and some more (40 TM? 50 TM?)
3. When KD A declare peace they loss all hostile ops.
4. Reduce gains from attack with 10% <--- Make it 50% and let it multiply with fortified hence a peace offer from fort gives you 25% gains on the kingdom you requested peace with.
Result for KD B after peace is declared:
1. they keep all hostile ops if KD A keep retal. <--- Make it so that they keep all hostile ops for 2 hours since the last hit from KD A. This will encourage some strategy and activity if KD A want to keep doing hostile actions
2. +4h attack time <-- Fog was removed since it slowed people down too much on their daily attack schedule. However, this one is easily calculated with and I would suggest to make it +4 hours with a 12h window which makes the effect successfully enter during the first wave into peace and reach full effect after 12h.
3. +10% army losses. <-- Make it +30% since +10% army losses is easily countered for several races
4. Kingdom B get option to Force in game CF for 48h. <--- Basically a one round max gain for the attacking kingdom. Peace can be costly.
Now, this isn't my suggestion but I believe that the goal of "peace" is to give the aggressor something in return of them moving on and looking for better hunting grounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
However, this suggestion feels like it belongs with a general makeover where aggression is promoted, so that even though another kd gets some breathing room they still have to deal with the everlasting threat of other kds waving.
We expected a hostile - you guys had 2/2 War Wins so you couldn't be retards. Once you FBed our bank, as expected, the NW gap closed considerably. We basically traded being in range every wave, but you guys wanted to have your armies home to hit in war when you declared, which was what caused problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordrek
Maximouse's quote on declare range was at around 19:00 on July 3rd, we waved on 10:00 on July 3rd (approximately). I know you guys randomed outside of hostile a lot though, to make sure you kept button.Quote:
It's funny that you mention it, since we had forgot about the relative nw part until some 20 hours before we sat our declaration date and the discussions was more about the question whether we would create a dual button once at max hostile or not...
...and you gave us a really fun week with your wave, and it was a nice war so I don't want to ruin whatever relations and good air it gave both our kids...
...however, if Maximouse told you that he had 3 different declaration dates then probably he had even though he never mentioned it to his council.
Session Start: Tue Jul 03 10:57:59 2012
Session Ident: maximouse
[10:57] Session Ident: maximouse (Absalom, therock) (maximouse@absalom-E7CDB56E.dynamic.upc.nl)
[10:57] <maximouse> hey
[10:58] <therock> hi!
-
[10:58] maximouse is maximouse@absalom-E7CDB56E.dynamic.upc.nl * ...
[10:58] maximouse on #mercy +#absalom @#kingdom @#nl
[10:58] maximouse using irc.absalom.info Absalom Phoenix Server
[10:58] maximouse has been idle 45secs, signed on Tue Jul 03 10:40:23
[10:58] maximouse End of /WHOIS list.
-
[10:59] <maximouse> figured out who your hostile with yet?
[10:59] <therock> nah
[10:59] <therock> we're simple people
[10:59] <therock> we just hit stuff
[10:59] <maximouse> lol
...
Session Start: Tue Jul 03 19:20:42 2012
Session Ident: maximouse
[22:04] <therock> war time!
[22:04] <maximouse> it is?
[22:04] <therock> yeah
[22:04] <therock> we are ready
[22:04] <therock> you can push button now
[22:04] <maximouse> lol
[22:06] <maximouse> drop 11K NW please
[22:06] <therock> why?
[22:06] <maximouse> declare range:P
[22:06] <maximouse> new feature this age
[22:06] <therock> wtf
[22:06] <therock> you got yourselves hit out of nw range?
[22:06] <maximouse> you can declare 33% upwards and 25% downwards
[22:07] <maximouse> we were at 22% your size to begin with
[22:07] <therock> gayyyyyyyyyy
Maxi also said Hawk's a noob, so what does he know? ;) Those could've just been wave dates for all I know, he's my only leak from your kingdom :(
Fair point, I did mention it in that context. However, in mentioning it there, I wasn't referring to top kingdoms being waved by smaller kingdoms (fairly obvious, since we waved you), but rather that you guys wanted to declare but you had to spend time hitting us down and losing armies that could've been used in war to hit in hostile. It's not like it was one or two armies, either - you lost half a wave on lining up NW range. That wasn't a case of a bigger kingdom trying to steal acres from a smaller kingdom or a smaller kingdom stealing acres from a bigger kingdom, but rather two kingdoms who were in very reasonable range of each other that wanted to war but had to deal with game mechanics to get the war going. I think that's a pretty solid example of the mechanics working against you.Quote:
And I only picked up on the "I'll give you two more kingdoms it didn't work for - Mercy vs Monument, when we had them just under 75% of our NW. Without our bank, the kingdoms were the same size. They wanted a war, we wanted a war, we both had to deal with things to make sure we could have the war we wanted." part since it's a matter where the system worked as intended regardless of what we think of it :S You had a bank, or rather still have, which inflates your kd nw and that gives you both advantages, disadvantages and... funny problems.
However, that last part can be addressed by returning to the former nw-range for the smaller part in the conflict, allowing them the "grace" to still declare even though the enemy kingdom is at most 200% their own kd nw size while retaining the protection the 75% limit downwards gives smaller kingdoms.
Either your war strategy involved using 12 of the 34 hits made that our in hostile, or the mechanics forced you to do it to declare.Code:June 21 of YR7 Philosoraptor (Monument) attempted to invade John Bonham (Mercy).
June 21 of YR7 Bob Marley has sent an aid shipment to Wong Ka-kui.
June 21 of YR7 Philosoraptor (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 321 acres of land.
June 21 of YR7 Philosoraptor (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 147 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 Bob Marley has sent an aid shipment to Kurt Cobain.
June 22 of YR7 Ian Curtis has sent an aid shipment to Kurt Cobain.
June 22 of YR7 Internet Is For p0rn (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 219 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 LOL WUT Pear (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 237 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 LOL WUT Pear (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 88 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 Charlie bite me (Monument) invaded George Harrison (Mercy) and captured 387 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 An unknown province from Trap Card is hostile (Monument) invaded Michael Jackson (Mercy) and captured 286 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 An unknown province from Trap Card is hostile (Monument) invaded Michael Jackson (Mercy) and captured 140 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 Honey Bager Dont Care (Monument) invaded George Harrison (Mercy) and captured 248 acres of land.
June 22 of YR7 All your base are belong to us (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 120 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 I Like Turtles (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 347 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Trap Card is hostile (Monument) has declared WAR with our kingdom!
June 23 of YR7 I Like Turtles (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 222 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Socially awkward penguin (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 205 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Angry German Kid (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 162 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Socially awkward penguin (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 143 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Chocolate Rain (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 156 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Angry German Kid (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 142 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Two Girls One Cup (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 125 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Raptor Jesus (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 132 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Two Girls One Cup (Monument) invaded Devo (Mercy) and captured 141 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Raptor Jesus (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 155 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Two Girls One Cup (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 108 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Elvis has sent an aid shipment to Kurt Cobain.
June 23 of YR7 Loituma girl (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 85 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Suck My Balls Mr Garrison (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 92 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 All your base are belong to us (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 119 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 My Little Pony (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 82 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Loituma girl (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 94 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Loituma girl (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 79 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 My Little Pony (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 80 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Internet Is For p0rn (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 82 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Old spice guy (Monument) invaded John Bonham (Mercy) and captured 80 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Chocolate Rain (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 67 acres of land.
June 23 of YR7 Chocolate Rain (Monument) invaded Johnny Cash (Mercy) and captured 57 acres of land.
I'd agree with your last point only in the case where the bigger kingdom is the aggressor (ie, Mercy vs Monument - crap, I used it again), but not where the smaller kingdom is (ie, Rage vs FTF - new example!). The protection system should ensure that aggressive kingdoms that attack larger people can be fought in a fair fight (ie, war), but that aggressive kingdoms that come after smaller kingdoms can not force them into war (through maxing the meter) or steal a button (through chicanery/shenanigans).[/CODE]
I'd agree with your last point only in the case where the bigger kingdom is the aggressor (ie, Mercy vs Monument - crap, I used it again), but not where the smaller kingdom is (ie, Rage vs FTF - new example!). The protection system should ensure that aggressive kingdoms that attack larger people can be fought in a fair fight (ie, war), but that aggressive kingdoms that come after smaller kingdoms can not force them into war (through maxing the meter) or steal a button (through chicanery/shenanigans).
The stuff about banks and lower nwpa seems a bit of a red herring. The range restriction is not necessary and is abusive for kingdoms who are willing to be the aggressors and wave big kingdoms. It is truly as simple as that.
And honestly do you really want to move in a direction where razekilling is the norm? Do we really want it made so the crown is decided by who has the most friends they can convince to wave a bigger kingdom/who can stay out of fights?
Fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
Thank god that someone finally could pick out the essence of the latter part of this thread (or at least the part about declaration ranges). So, just a wild idea (even though I should be sleeping now so it's probably too wild for the community and fairly unbalanced)...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
The kingdom who first pushes the relation into hostile is deemed aggressor. The aggressor can only declare upon a kingdom within 75-133% of his or her nw.
The other kingdom is deemed defender. The defender can declare upon a kingdom within 50-200% of his or her nw.
However, once the meter is maxed the aggressor is granted a declaration range withing 75-200% so that a smaller kingdom gets the chance to push the button, if the larger kingdom decides to fight back.
Also, we tried to stay small this age and I noticed that the fake hostile tag is still in play everywhere. Hence it would be nice to have a notation, just like it states when you're at war with someone, which says that this kd is in a hostile with XX:XX.
Sure, the stuff about banks might not have 100% to do with range restrictions but it does have something to do with KDRN. The low nwpa however is a factor since it is one of the sole reasons why those topfeeding hits are beneficial. If you move your provinces out of their provinces relative nw range then they won't do the topfeeding waves. However, you keep them within their range since it's beneficial for you in the long term. Hence you pay the price of topfeeding waves so that you still can have a shot at the crown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
Do I want RK to be a norm? Well, I prefer to use it on people who vultures into hostiles, once I get the chance to give them something back. That being said, I'm playing in a kd who doesn't play for the charts and I do know how it slows a top kd down. However, in my eyes RK is one of the few tools a huge kd can use against people who use extreme topfeeding, even though it comes at a hefty price :SQuote:
Originally Posted by Mal
So buy what I just suggested above, where the "aggressor" gets a smaller declare range than the "defender"? That should solve the part where kds more than half your size waves upward for acres. If that is combined with a greater incentive to fight, like larger rewards for winning and a limited dicing above a certain size, then I bet the game would be more action packed :)
Let me also repost this, since it might be OP but making winning wars OP is suddenly a viable future for the game since the removal of FW...
Suggestion:
1.) Upon WW, the winning size gains 10% of the enemy kds total acreage, removing acres according to how large someone is. These acres is split into two pools where 50% lands on the provinces directly in even terms (hence a 100 acre pool gives every province 2 free acres). The other 50% is given to the monarch, to divide as he pleases (so that he can either help chained provinces or feed his cow or whatever). Since KDRN gains comes in play as well as the declaration range the game will sooner or later land in a situation where the largest provinces will have to battle each other if they want to win the land crown thus making war a must do even if you're aiming for the size crowns.
2.) Provinces below the kd average will be able to explore according to the old formula during postwar cf. This will make it easier for organised kds to regrow their chained provinces and return to fighting shape.
3.) Upon reaching a size above 2k acres and having diced at least 2k acres the gains on dicing throttles down towards 33% of the original gains. This should not have an impact on the smaller provinces but will make dicing a no-go if you're aiming at the very top. However, faeries who are unable to attack (more or less) should have the throttle decreased a bit so that they can keep up with their kd once the kd grows large enough. This will also make the explore pool more important, since that will be the only efficient way to grow unless you win wars and/or can attack.
I will ignore the rest of the debate, but this I HAVE to respond on.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
What do I know? I played more ages with him in a KD then you...:P So I can speak out of experience.
But to be fair, 1 of the best guys around to share monarchy with. (raikon is doing a great job this age though, so he might push hawk from the 1st place....)
Great... now his head is going to be huge in chan.... thx maxi, thanks alot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximouse
In the old days, when a kingdom topfeed waved like that, the other kingdom would just train up and declare. That's not possible anymore, so there's no incentive to train up. Why why waste another 3-4 days razing away the acres gained when that's counter-productive to your goals and doesn't give any fun or enjoyment to anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by goodz
The problem is not that it's going to slow the dicing down and force them to train, per se - it's that there's no recourse for gaining anymore, so there's no point. It's literally an unwinnable fight. At best, you can break even. That's pointless.
again, it is unwinable because you fall behind a general strategy of dicing culture in the SHORT term but perhaps not in the longer term. but it is still a choice you make that you take the consequences of. It is not that you CAN'T deal with it, it is that you DON'T WANT to deal with it.
How do you intend to catch up? Conflicts almost always cost acres for both kingdoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheister
You need to start thinking in opportunity cost terms, Simians vs TFC was a prime example of this. Simians waved a kingdom that had barely any ability to fight back and they essentially broke even once you consider lost time dicing. That is absurd.
You are correct that we could deal with it, but you should stop arguing for us to. One way to deal with it is for us to band together and razekill mid-size kingdoms while they are warring. The solutions we have are not good for the game, thats the point.