New Anticheat Measure Going Live Today

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Why would you think cheaters go to the trouble of deleting their accounts? They let them go inactive.

We have seen a 40% decrease in reports of interactions since the system went live. If you are going to ROFLMAO try and ensure you know what you are talking about.

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So your 40% decrease in reports of interactions means what exactly? You have had a decrease in the reports of possible or substantiated cheating? Were those reports coming from players or your automated system?

Would you also be saying that you have had a substantial increase in "inactive" provinces based on your comment about cheaters letting their provinces go inactive?

How long are the devs allowing a province to be inactive now before it becomes abandoned and the monarch can delete it or use it for an invite?

Because based strictly off numbers, your system hasn't done anything. So ROFLMAO is pretty valid based purely on numbers alone.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

The ip that interacts is logged, so no - they wouldn't be blocked.

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Great, that's what I was wanting to know. Thanks Bishop. ^_^

So if the focus is on improving the game... when will "Ticks" be taken back out of it? I still see no validity in this argument. Hypothetically speaking, I could play from several different locations and be in the same kingdom. *shrugs*. I just cannot fathom a cheater taking the time to get themselves 'whitelisted' if they have been cheating without a hitch before. If a couple is x-logging, smack them with the anti-cheat method. Otherwise I can see no problem with having a Whitelist.

People who want to honestly play a game shall. Those who don't, simply won't.

If the reports have reduced in cheating via user-reports, that doesn't mean that the cheating has gone down necessarily either.

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Originally Posted by Byakuya

So if the focus is on improving the game... when will "Ticks" be taken back out of it? I still see no validity in this argument.

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I see no validity in this argument in this thread.

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Hypothetically speaking, I could play from several different locations and be in the same kingdom. *shrugs*. I just cannot fathom a cheater taking the time to get themselves 'whitelisted' if they have been cheating without a hitch before. If a couple is x-logging, smack them with the anti-cheat method. Otherwise I can see no problem with having a Whitelist.

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You can't see cheaters take the time to whitelist, yet you imagine a cheater coordinating attacks from several locations?

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People who want to honestly play a game shall. Those who don't, simply won't.

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Lets get rid of the laws and the police. Anarchy ftw.

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If the reports have reduced in cheating via user-reports, that doesn't mean that the cheating has gone down necessarily either.

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Let us stay clear of interpreting data they accumulated.

Lol. Your logic always smites logical fallacies. Darn you Savenger ;)

Still, I had family that honestly played with no x-logging. My sis and father didn't x-log for each other. They wanted honest play with full realm of playability. The system put a big shackle to those who played with integrity. I don't believe in multying myself. I was raised by a marine and raised upon the belief that cheating was not welcome nor granted. Did I ever run more than one province? Definitely not.

I did like the unique browser information posted a few pages back. It held validity and would be a easy target for those who violated WListing terms/agreement.

I strongly disagree with cheating, but I figured that there would be a way to detect x-logging and preventing it more readily.

For example: Father travels a lot and logs into his account as he travels. Sister is home on the weekends from school and during breaks in school. Logs can be tracked showing that they were logged in simultaneously from two separate locations.... most times from an hour's distance, others from three to 12 hours' distance in the same time period with no quick hopping (ie the 12 hour gap turns into no gap within an hour etc.). I would believe that would warrant an x-log flag.

All this has been covered before, but i appreciate the thread is long so ill repeat

Maintaining a whitelist isn't feasible or scalable, and the whitelist was a bad idea from the start.

Joker: you are talking about things you have absolute no insight into. If you think the system is working well then thats all there is to it.

Bishop, I don't know that it was a bad idea honestly. It brought back a lot of old players and pulled an interest in for new :)

It was pleasant for those who were able to honestly whitelist and shambles for them when they lost it. Was there no way to modify the system for autodetection to detect x-logging in such a manner (ie: distance params, log times, unique browser ID etc) for the ones who were whitelisting?

Albeit I'm sure that would be a project load and a half to implement such a program, I'm sure that it would have been a worthwhile endeavor for those who wanted honest play together.

I know you all caught a lot of flak for the changes due to the suddenness and harshness that it was implemented (which it definitely was sudden), but I know you all are trying to make the game as fair as possible to all players. I think most of the people who went through the troubles of getting properly WL'ed felt slighted, especially when they 'donated' money to the system so they could play together. The change altered the way they could interact completely.

Whitelisted pairs should have no differences between them in terms of distance or browser on their home IP and often their log in times are the same as (they claim) they play together. It was abused a lot.

*Hating Abusers*

Cheaters, as always, ruin perfectly good ideas.

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Originally Posted by Byakuya

Still, I had family that honestly played with no x-logging. My sis and father didn't x-log for each other. They wanted honest play with full realm of playability.

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Then play in separate kds and they would have hardly ever ran into the new system. If they were so insistent on playing with each other than they needed to accept that there would be some additional burdens to work around.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Maintaining a whitelist isn't feasible or scalable, and the whitelist was a bad idea from the start.

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Do it on a per-age basis. Make application harder. Do background checks, call the police, call the university, compare social insurance number to registrar(obviously to a much lesser extent given data protection laws)... do what needs to be done ensure that those who play fair and honestly are protected. Not enough helpers? Hire some. No money? Find some.

This is the lazy way out, you and I both know this. As fun as this game is (for existing players), removing the rights of players is very different from protecting them.

Everyone has the right to fair and honest play.

Everyone should play fair and honestly.

You're trying to protect the former by removing the latter. Wake up!

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Originally Posted by baka

Do it on a per-age basis. Make application harder. Do background checks, call the police, call the university, compare social insurance number to registrar(obviously to a much lesser extent given data protection laws)... do what needs to be done ensure that those who play fair and honestly are protected. Not enough helpers? Hire some. No money? Find some.

This is the lazy way out, you and I both know this. As fun as this game is (for existing players), removing the rights of players is very different from protecting them.

Everyone has the right to fair and honest play.

Everyone should play fair and honestly.

You're trying to protect the former by removing the latter. Wake up!

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This is not even slightly feasible. Be realistic.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Then play in separate kds and they would have hardly ever ran into the new system. If they were so insistent on playing with each other than they needed to accept that there would be some additional burdens to work around.

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Palem, that kinda defeats the whole idea of "playing together". The idea is the same as two people playing single player games in separate rooms. NOT the same. lol. Compare apples to oranges. Play in the same kingdom. Talk about playing in your separate kingdoms.

I am still more than irritated with the lack of response when it comes to x-logging detection/protection methods proposed by honest players for honest players.

Raising money, not feasible? Then what are the "donations" going to I ask?

If you want to play together you can, you just cant hit the same targets within a certain period of time.
Donations go to server costs and some development. The game doesn't make a lot of money yet.

Your detection methods aren't feasible or strong enough. They are also reactive rather than proactive.

I'm sure hired help isn't too hard to come by with the large vet base that love this game. People paying for premium features = money coming into you. More people = more money potential.

Reactive rather than proactive... Here's the thing, if two provinces are detected under the uni. browser, then it would prevent said violation/action. Proactive and reactive.

Said accounts would also pop up under the same browser before attacks/ops were ever made.

Prevented before it happened.

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Originally Posted by Byakuya

I'm sure hired help isn't too hard to come by with the large vet base that love this game. People paying for premium features = money coming into you. More people = more money potential.

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I just told you, its not feasible or scalable.

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Originally Posted by Byakuya

Palem, that kinda defeats the whole idea of "playing together". The idea is the same as two people playing single player games in separate rooms. NOT the same. lol. Compare apples to oranges. Play in the same kingdom. Talk about playing in your separate kingdoms.

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It's not your right to be able to play in the same kd. It's an absolute privilege that comes with some consequences; consequences which can be averted by simply playing in separate kds.

Playing in separate kds doesn't ruin the game experience, I'd be willing to say it enhances it. When I had RL friends that played, we got super competitive with each other. We discussed each kd's strategy with each other. We gave each other war advice. We found farms together. Yet, we still played in different kds and got to know two completely different sets of cool people.

*Sigh* I'm saying more volume, more money regardless.

"Donations go to server costs and some development"

And ads on your domains? More volume, more flow. Trust me, I want nothing more than for Utopia to strive.

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Originally Posted by Bishop

Whitelisted pairs should have no differences between them in terms of distance or browser on their home IP and often their log in times are the same as (they claim) they play together. It was abused a lot.

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You realize Bishop that if two people live in the same house they could go do something together...I don't know maybe a movie, dinner or shopping and when they get home they both log in? I guess in your mind that constitutes cheating since they logged in at the same time. Or like I would do if we were getting waved, I'd holler at my daughter to get on line and start texting everyone else that I had a mobile for.

I understand your point about the abuse but in a game like Utopia you should be able to find a way to make it possible for two people to play the game from the same house, in the same KD and not cause a maintenance issue.

It is easy to diss people and harder to come up with ways to make people happy. You always take the easy road and nothing will be left in the end.

Anyway, I think the devs and you have done this in a knee jerk fashion and didn't really consider the honest player you were dissing. That is never a good policy to run a business from or a game.

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Originally Posted by Byakuya

*Sigh* I'm saying more volume, more money regardless.

"Donations go to server costs and some development"

And ads on your domains? More volume, more flow. Trust me, I want nothing more than for Utopia to strive.

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Its not scalable, sighing won't change that. Getting more volume is not dependant on allowing provinces on the same IP to interact.

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Originally Posted by Joker1975

You realize Bishop that if two people live in the same house they could go do something together...I don't know maybe a movie, dinner or shopping and when they get home they both log in? I guess in your mind that constitutes cheating since they logged in at the same time. Or like I would do if we were getting waved, I'd holler at my daughter to get on line and start texting everyone else that I had a mobile for.

I understand your point about the abuse but in a game like Utopia you should be able to find a way to make it possible for two people to play the game from the same house, in the same KD and not cause a maintenance issue.

It is easy to diss people and harder to come up with ways to make people happy. You always take the easy road and nothing will be left in the end.

Anyway, I think the devs and you have done this in a knee jerk fashion and didn't really consider the honest player you were dissing. That is never a good policy to run a business from or a game.

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Feel free to suggest something workable then.

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Originally Posted by Palem

Playing in separate kds doesn't ruin the game experience, I'd be willing to say it enhances it. When I had RL friends that played, we got super competitive with each other. We discussed each kd's strategy with each other. We gave each other war advice. We found farms together. Yet, we still played in different kds and got to know two completely different sets of cool people.

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Playing from two different KD's sux. If you don't know that then you just don't have any friends.

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Originally Posted by Palem

It's not your right to be able to play in the same kd. It's an absolute privilege that comes with some consequences; consequences which can be averted by simply playing in separate kds.

Playing in separate kds doesn't ruin the game experience, I'd be willing to say it enhances it. When I had RL friends that played, we got super competitive with each other. We discussed each kd's strategy with each other. We gave each other war advice. We found farms together. Yet, we still played in different kds and got to know two completely different sets of cool people.

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Sorry dude, that is the same thing.

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"Well on this quest I did this."
"Oh really, well I did this"
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Nowhere near the same as playing WITH someone. Refutable logic. Sorry.

Refutable? Not in the slightest. Fun is subjective.

We have quests in Utopia? Could someone point me in that direction?

One, tell Palem to just stay out of this forum. He only furthers agitation from the members trying to find honest solutions to be able to play together from the same household.

Two, have you honestly looked into the methods that we have been discussing? You say that those methods are weak, but I cannot honestly agree. Unique browser log is a layer of preventative and reactive protection on top of the IP protection methods.

You don't get to tell anyone to stay out of anywhere.

Browser footprint is useless. It wont address the issue. I already said that and explained why.

Refutable yes. You never took law. Please do not present a flawed disagreement as such.

The argument is that it is not the same experience playing in two separate kingdoms as playing in the same. Simply not feasible to try and express it as the same experience.

Does Utopia have any quests? No. However, when you are in the same war together, it is similar to having a quest together. Same targets, pass potions, cast spells, swing swords. Metaphorically speaking then, it is like a quest from time to time. Sharing that experience together in the same group is completely different. Trust me, I've done both. I hated the "swapping tales of my single player rpg". I would rather share the heat of the battle instead with a trusted sword and shield at my side.

Erhem. I didn't tell him to, I asked you to tell him to. Just a PR suggestion.

And where did you discuss the flaws of browser footprinting? I must have missed that piece.

lol @ a PR thing.
I'm the nicest mod here. Ask anyone.


You tell me to not compare apples to oranges, then you compare limes to potatoes. Even being in the same kd, you're going to have differences in how you experience the same war. It's no different than playing in another kd. Most wars play out the same way, just the same way a quest has a definite story but can be experienced in different ways.

I would have to say that you are one of the very few that agree with your ideology of gaming. Take your CoD's and all of the other multiplayer games out there. The ones that are showing the most success are the ones that allow multiple players from the same household. Why do you think the Halo series has done so well? Awesome storyline? I think it helps, but the majority of those players enjoy playing most with friends and family from the same house. The best part about it, being on the same team. Answer me this... Are they lucrative? Do they experience cheaters? Do they come up with ways to resolve the problems? The answers; all yes.




Any how, have you read Sharaf's solution?

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Originally Posted by Sharaf

in my work place, we have 2 old time utopia players and 4 ppl that wanted to try the game.
atm non of them play, the last one that tried to play got himself (and me) deleted in the past.
so all in all, that's 6 players lost - and who know how more ppl they could have talked into join the game if there was a way for them to play...

utopia need more players, those of us who play have wifes\co workers\friends and so on that we can talk into join the game, but when we do those ppl find out that they cant attack\aid or do other things that other players can.

so, what can be done?
the way i see it, you can take a small amount (few $ a year) from every person claim to be white list. you make sure the same credit card is'nt being used and here you go - you can make sure that it's not the same person playing few provs.

that way, game will even get a little more money and you can get some extra players that can pay for the game but atm dont want to join becuse of the white list problems.

it wont fix all the problems (if 1 out of 10 agree to pay, it's still 9 players not playing) but it's a start and an option.

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This is a competitive PVP game. If you want to play 10 characters simultaneously on CoD away with you, I'm sure activation will welcome the 10 copies of the game you will buy and I'm sure your own 10 man team will be really effective :/

browser agent is trivial to spoof.

Sharafs post means we charge you each and every time you log in, and you can only log in when staff are available to verify you.

You wouldn't necessarily have to have staff available to verify them. Since the accounts are already linked, there would be no need to have verification from staff, other than the usual login. So as opposed to being an unknown, it would be a verified known.

The charge could be made just like the premium feature of sitting. You don't pay every time you login to sit. The system would be a twin to sitting, but longer in duration (an age). Just an option or potential solution. This also raises funds to promote Utopia, as opposed to strangling it. Compound that with people paying to go to be in kds with their friends...

To me, CoD is not a PvP game solely, it's also a TvT. If your team cannot communicate successfully in a game of TDM and the other team can, you will most likely lose.

And poop on browser agent. I didn't know it was easy to spoof.

There is no point in having a conversation if I, as a representative of staff, tell you something and you deny it. Every single login of a whitelisted player would have to be verified by staff in order for it to be fair.

You do not get a benefit by running 10 account in CoD and activision do not lose out. In utopia this is not true. It is a bad comparison and not relevant or useful here.

Then rid us of sitting. It's the same concept but a paid matter.

I do not see the "why" as to how you would have to verify WL players every time they login. I figured that the issue would be absolved due to a tie with account login and the whitelist (similar to sitting in setting).

How does utopia lose out if players are paying to be whitelisted? The difference and point I am making here is that the funds received from paying customers are renewable each age. The more whitelisted in this case, the more that funds can go back to development and getting you guys paid.

Sitting is not under discussion here. Move on.

We have to verify who it is that logs into a whitelisted account to ensure that the person logging in is who they say they are - otherwise you just paid to allow your partner to xlog you. You think the complaining for the IP block is bad, wait until you see what would happen if we went down that road.

The point you are making is not realistic, it is not scalable and it doesn't help the issue. Apart from the fact that it is a full time job maintaining the whitelist, to make cash off it we need to charge ~150usd to be whitelisted, maybe you think that is ok, I suspect the majority of our users would not.

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Originally Posted by Palem

lol @ a PR thing.
I'm the nicest mod here. Ask anyone.


You tell me to not compare apples to oranges, then you compare limes to potatoes. Even being in the same kd, you're going to have differences in how you experience the same war. It's no different than playing in another kd. Most wars play out the same way, just the same way a quest has a definite story but can be experienced in different ways.

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Psht, DHaran and Bishop are both much more amiable than you Palem ;)

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Originally Posted by Ordray

Psht, DHaran and Bishop are both much more amiable than you Palem ;)

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Me and Bish have to xlog his forum account and ban people so he doesn't look so soft.

On topic tho, paid whitelisting is paying to xlog, I don't see it ever happening. Sitting has restrictions to prevent abuse, and those options are equally available to all. Whitelisting does not compare whatsoever to sitting.

*bans DHaran for flaming a mod