What hurts the most!

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Originally Posted by Hallo

You are obviously fascists.

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DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

This isn't a tea party. We're not all going to place nice and say everyone can do what they want and build what they want and play whatever race and personality makes them happy. This is Utopia. Kingdoms are run by monarchs.

Son, we play in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by provinces with offense. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Hallo? Monarchs have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Grime, and you curse Grace. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Grime no longer being in Grace, while tragic, probably saved acres. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves acres. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, acres, networth. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent waving something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very charts that I dominate, and then questions the manner in which I dominate them. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you get a trade code and play a province. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

as if by magic, TheRock becomes TheRant

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Originally Posted by Grime

boring blah blah blah, and this jibba jabbba, end of the day, this is only a game, there are many more important things in life, like getting laid??? Any of you gracers understand what that is??? ............

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Game should not be excuse for not getting laid mate, get a better one :)

WolfDGrey.

If you don't know what fascism is, kindly say so... I'm certain the "international club of people who want to time travel" will be happy to put you on the list of "people who don't believe fascism ever existed"... after they build a toilet paper time machine.


Contracts are inherently undemocratic. They constrain the actions of an individual for the benefits of another. In fact, it seems odd that you would choose that, of all things, to pose an argument against this being fascism. If I were to sign a contract that said I hence forth have no rights, would surrender my individualism, and thus forth adopt an ideology that is inherently fascist... have I democratically become a fascist? Is the contract even reasonable? Are your implications that the power of a contract is greater than the power of an individual? And that if an individual were to enter a contract that is potentially harmful to him and others, that said contract should be abided by, regardless of consequences?
There are laws against such contracts... thereby making them unenforceable and void.


Does the church go door to door and ask "Are you a Member" and if you are not, pull out a shotgun and blast your head off? It seems, yet again, you completely miscomprehend the actions of fascists to suit your argument. The KD did force grime to adopt their ideology, but the church currently does not (yes, there was a time when the church did... that time is not now). Now, you might be "conditioned" in school to believe the nation is good... but will the nation come out and threaten to kill you if you don't stop your hate speech? Will the nation purposely attack (raze) you if you don't comply. Will the nation even Kill you? No. The nation would not.

Similarly, a sports team would never injure the members that "failed to score". nor would it physically punish those that were issued a penalty... a sports team will protect its weakest members. Take American Football, you have all those big meaty guys... and then that little scrawny guy that they could snap like a twig. It makes no sense that those big guys would protect the little one, but they do... they do because he can perform a function they can't, even though their function may be seen as inherently superior to his function. Nor does a business eradicate itself of weaker members. If you fail to come to work on time, does said business place a bomb in your car the very next day? No, it does not.

And your comment about the international red cross? Please. The red cross cares very much what happens to it's members, laymen... like yourself... may see it as a great danger, but the reality is the danger has already passed, or is far enough away to allow safe travel. Note also that it is not the red cross that decides what its members do, but the members themselves. If they say "no, I do not want to" they don't have to... the red cross acts in the best interest of it's members, and aims to protect them. But the red cross, under no circumstances, is going to be seen throwing people out of a plane to "rescue" the people 10 feet away from a lava flow (note that said people would already be dead). And if one person lands in said flow, they're not going to say "oh well, hey, your turn now".



It would seem to me that you, WolfD, are either a troll, or actually have little knowledge on fascism. Take my advice, the "international club of people who want to time travel" is quite unlikely to build a working time machine... instead, pull out a history book, and read.

Wow, plz take this to GT :)

can we at least agree that fascism > democracy, and communism > fascism? therefore communism > democracy, go pinkos


*Edit* so on topic, that was totally messed up on the player's behalf

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I support Grime! Good job for sticking to your morals and depriving the KD of their crown.

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Grace? Crown??

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Originally Posted by Hallo

Contracts are inherently undemocratic.

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That vomiting sounds like Bakunin and because of that all your post is a big blurb. What you describe is anarchy and has nothing to do with democracy. Wake up.

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Originally Posted by Fates Warning

He can defect his province if he wants to. It's his account not the kingdoms. Deal with it like the rest of us do.

Guy defects his province and you all think it's a reason to kill of a player. Nice.

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Yea because he intended to quit playing, not keep the province. This makes him a douchebag, and you a moron.

:)

I have proven my point.


When an opponent refuses to acknowledge another's argument as debate worthy over having different ideological views... then said argument has enough merit such that said opponent may look foolish if he (or she) were to attempt to debate it. As a result, said opponent will often limit his response to a conclusive statement that does not refute said argument but has an "aire" about it that gives the impression to others that something of great importance was said.


If this statement is about unlawful contracts, realize that imposing restrictions on liberty, regardless of consent, is against the very notions that the united states was founded upon. Now, are you right in stating that it, by no means, correlates to democracy? Yes. What we're actually talking about is the social structure of an organization... not its method of governing. Fascism presents a small problem though, fascism is self governing, meaning that not only is it a social structure, but also a system of government. This is where the inherent problem of "democratic" and "anarchy" came about.

But, is it anarchy to allow a person to say no? Someone who refuses to pay taxes can be evicted from his home, given the government still owns the land it was built upon. Someone who maims another person can still be imprisoned for his actions. The consequences still exist, yet the person retains the right to do it.

In addition, none of what I specified actually falls into the category of anarchy. Anarchy is the belief that without a controlling body, individuals would act in accordance to their own immediate best interest. The essence of anarchy is not mass chaos or global destruction, though the media tend to portray it as such, but that the actions without consequences would lead to people performing said actions regardless of morals. Now, anarchy can lead to fascism, just as anarchy can lead to democracy... but the core of anarchy is that "people do what they want because of no fear of consequence"... if people wanted to all become farmers and live a peaceful life... heck, still anarchy! Not everyone is a serial killer at heart, nor is everyone a thief or rapist...


But it seems we have drifted from the point.


The point was, Grime performed an action that the KD did not like, because the method of setting a dispute with any KD is "Kindly pack your bags, and leave". What the KD should be asking is "what can we do to make things better". If he had not left, they would have just as likely destroyed his province anyways... which is what I wanted to illustrate. He did something to show his frustration for the KD where as you all wish to indicate that there is nothing a KD can do that would warrant a member hurting it.

And I merely wished to explain, that that IS fascism...

Hallo, you're confusing someone conceding your point with someone ignoring it.

Of course it's fascist. Top kingdoms are NOT democracies. When a monarch says jump, the players don't ask questions, they jump as high as they can and ask if it's high enough. If you can't jump or can't jump high enough, you trade out of the province and go on with your life. That's the agreement you make when you join a good kingdom.

Don't like it? Don't join.

Grime broke his word. Everyone knows not to trust him anymore. Life goes on.

Hallo this is Utopia, not a RL political arena, get a clue. He knew what he was signing up for when he applied for Grace.

I didnt apply to grace i was approached by grace may i point out..i havent played the game in years, i posted a topic on forum askign for a kingdom not knowing i was being approached by a top kingdom, tbh i didnt know what to expect and being the greenhorn would of liked to be let loose a bit of slack, seeing the first age is in my eyes a gettng to grips with how the kingdom works but after being pushed away in my eyes, i felt the need to inflict hurt into a kingdom to which i believe i just wasted a age with. Now if i wish to play again i have to start all over.

So yea doing what i done was my way of saying thanks for a wasted age, and if anyone wants to argue with that..... sue me because i find that fair.

So basically you are an immature child who throws a tantrum instead of simply trying to work it out or moving on peacefully.

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Originally Posted by DHaran

So basically you are an immature child who throws a tantrum instead of simply trying to work it out or moving on peacefully.

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Thank you for making my point.

The reason I called KDs fascist was not some political statement, nor a presentation of alternative ideology. It was because you cannot "work things out" with a fascist regime. Thus far, all I've heard people preach "it is what it is, and if you can't handle it, you can leave".

"It is what it is, and if you can't handle it, you can leave." Where is the room for negotiation? For compromise? How could Grime EVER work things out if the KD was unwilling to conform to HIS needs? Grime was given a single choice, "leave our kd". It's not a discussion, a negotiation... he was told to leave, and what everyone expects is for him to leave.


You want to claim he was under some formal oath? Go right ahead. Claim that what he did was rude, selfish? I have not disputed that.
But what he did is what you can expect of an individual being confronted by fascists. He stood up, drew in his breath, made a small submissive gesture ... then, with his last dying breath, bellowed "FREEEEEDOOOOOOOM!!!"

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Originally Posted by Carniverous

Ok I can actually comment from a standpoint of someone who knows what happened.
1. No one was trying to push grime out of the kd. We asked him why he didn't make waves and he defected.
2. The reason we wanted him to hit at 2-4am in the morning is because he was late for the previous wave so thats when his armies were home.
3. If he had have said "I will be late because..." He wouldn't even have been asked what was going on.
4. The first time he was asked why he was late for EVERY wave was the time he defected.

Therefore it was a lame move. We wanted to findout why he was late all the time and try to work out a better situation for everyone. So we could have everyone hitting on time and so he could have a life AND army in army out in war situations.

Feel free to comment on that all you will but those are the facts.

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Hallo, apparently you lack the ability to read. He was asked about his tardiness to waves, and he defected like a little kid. He never made an attempt to make anything work, and I can tell by his attitude that Grace is telling the truth here.

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Originally Posted by Allanon KT

Somewhere, whenever you plan a wave, it's going to be 4am for someone, or it's not going to suit someone. Kingdom waves are planned for the best time for the majority of the players. The rest need to either conform to those times, or inform the kd leadership they cannot make the wave time, which usually leads to the player being politely asked to leave

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Yep... but it does not refute my claims that as fascists, an individual is likely to act out.

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Originally Posted by Hallo

Yep... but it does not refute my claims that as fascists, an individual is likely to act out.

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Fascism wins crowns.

Democracy gets farmed.

Nothing else matters.

Nobody holds a gun to your head and makes you join the fascists, but if you do, you follow the law.

Hallo, you seem to be missing one very important fact: It doesn't happen often.
To say that an individual is likely to act out, that it is more likely than not, is an obvious lie. Or skewing of facts, however you wish to look at it.
There is a general feeling of outrage that a player would take this path, that outrage stemming from the fact that it doesn't happen very often.
Utopia is like the military, there is a chain of command. If you don't do what the leadership tells you to do to their satisfaction, their recourse is to replace you.
You as a player in a kingdom, have an ability to suggest change, to express discontent, and come to a compromise. You are not morally entitled to defect. Yes, clearly Grime had the ability to, and in fact did defect, but the main problem is that it's simply not right. It's akin to a member of an army platoon running out to surrender and giving away his platoon's position. It's undeniably a dick move. That is all.
Your argument, if I understand, is that the mere structure of a kingdom, that element of fascism, causes people to engage in these dick behaviours. You are wrong. It rarely happens, which is the reason for this outrage. I thank the stars that the majority of the world understands hierarchy and the need to respect the chain of command. I shudder to think what kind of world we'd live in otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Grime

I didnt apply to grace i was approached by grace may i point out..i havent played the game in years, i posted a topic on forum askign for a kingdom

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That is same, you asked to play in a kingdom. They told you the requirements. You agreed. You didn't kept your word. You're a reliability.

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Originally Posted by Grime

tbh i didnt know what to expect

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That part... I believe you. That doesn't mean you can do with the kingdom's asset whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by Grime

i felt the need to inflict hurt into a kingdom to which i believe i just wasted a age with.

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So... they told you the requirements, you failed to keep your word, they asked you about the reason of the problem, so you go hysterical... pfffff

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Originally Posted by Grime

Now if i wish to play again i have to start all over.

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Next time you search for a kingdom, you should know that you're a ghetto player, and you will allways be, so you avoid this kind of idiotic behavior.

stop the train kids. how did grace talk and crown talk find its way into the same thread?

Hallo, you are fantastic as vomiting the definitions of facism, anarchy and what not. None of which as any relevance to any sort of discussion that has taken place. You threw facism into the hat as a tag for the way the kingdom was acting in behalf to the apparent events that took place, that lead up to grime defecting the province. Within a small fact of what facism is, it can be used as a basic definition of how top end kingdoms are run within the game. Single strong leader (monarch), everyone following that single leader, to the requirements, specifications and orders of that leader.

You have run off on a complete tangent about the theory itself, which isnt even remotely the issue. Your above point about a contract and the restrictions on the individual being unamerican, this isnt america, this isnt even remotely a country or nation state in any fashion. Its a very clear cut situation, grime joined a kd, he was told the requirements, he failed to meet them, he was asked why he was failing to meet them and threw a hissy fit and defected a province, which wasnt his in the fist place. It was a petty and really childish act, given the fact that he accepted to be part of that kingdoms. No one is putting a gun to anyones head, no families are being threatened, you either do your job or you are replaced.

just ignore hallo, as he ignores what is said in this thread unless it helps him troll. In not responding to DHaran's reasoning about the subject, Hallo stays off subject and quotes something unrelated and doesn't address what was said to him and asked to refute; multiple times.

octobrev, Grace is trying to play for top 5, and with a month left at least has a chance still to get top 1, the crown. Moreso than a rank 50 kingdom, by comparison. That is how it got brought into the thread.

However, this thread is supposed to be about Grime. It's a big deal to people who organize kingdoms, because they know not to trust Grime in the future with the same trust given to him by Grace. We have moved on; there really isn't much we can do other than say it was a dick move, but we hope his life goes well, since life > game. Sadly, we at Grace are nerds, and are unable to follow his noble example, dictated to our leader with his parting words =)
<3 Grime, <3 Danne, mercy FTW and such.

<3 Nuriho

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Originally Posted by Hallo

"It is what it is, and if you can't handle it, you can leave." Where is the room for negotiation? For compromise? How could Grime EVER work things out if the KD was unwilling to conform to HIS needs? Grime was given a single choice, "leave our kd". It's not a discussion, a negotiation... he was told to leave, and what everyone expects is for him to leave.

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He was not told to leave. They simply approached him with a PM asking him why is he ALWAYS late for waves and his attacks. Then all of a sudden he just defects.

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Originally Posted by Sashdev

He was not told to leave. They simply approached him with a PM asking him why is he ALWAYS late for waves and his attacks. Then all of a sudden he just defects.

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just wanted to say hello sashdev!

long time no see ;)

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octobrev, Grace is trying to play for top 5, and with a month left at least has a chance still to get top 1, the crown. Moreso than a rank 50 kingdom, by comparison. That is how it got brought into the thread.

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im willing to bet any rank 50 kd has an equal or greater chance at crowning than grace. prove me wrong!

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Originally Posted by Nuriho

Sadly, we at Grace are nerds.

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Nuriho, we're going to have words about this!

Btw hi sashdev you noob.

Its just a difference between the mindset of a Top KD and someone who has never played in one. I agree that it can be harsh at times, but its been proven that Facism > Democracy. Look at the ranks if you have time, thats how the top KDs does things so if you don't like it, don't be part of it.

You can think that your political ideals are correct, but we are talking about efficiency and what works here.

I am not refering to Grace but as a general point of view, I would think that how the leadership/council bring their message forward is also very important. I know of this ef-up monarch in one of the top KD i was in being so hot-tempered he just keeps *****ing about every single thing, it just makes you want to bash him up or get back at him. For the player, you don't care if you screw his age. For the monarch, you sow what you reap. The top KD I was in looks pretty lousy now, though still in chart.

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Originally Posted by raviy

Hallo, you seem to be missing one very important fact: It doesn't happen often.
To say that an individual is likely to act out, that it is more likely than not, is an obvious lie. Or skewing of facts, however you wish to look at it.
There is a general feeling of outrage that a player would take this path, that outrage stemming from the fact that it doesn't happen very often.
Utopia is like the military, there is a chain of command. If you don't do what the leadership tells you to do to their satisfaction, their recourse is to replace you.
You as a player in a kingdom, have an ability to suggest change, to express discontent, and come to a compromise. You are not morally entitled to defect. Yes, clearly Grime had the ability to, and in fact did defect, but the main problem is that it's simply not right. It's akin to a member of an army platoon running out to surrender and giving away his platoon's position. It's undeniably a dick move. That is all.
Your argument, if I understand, is that the mere structure of a kingdom, that element of fascism, causes people to engage in these dick behaviours.

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I feel this was in good intentions... But let me explain a little.
Fascism is a social structure deprived of individuality. "The Individual" thus cannot fit within fascism, and in turn is likely to act out. I know, and understand, why people are responding as such... but a pseudo-democracy, where people feel that they have an "opinion" in how the KD is run, even if they don't, can greatly reduce these occurances.

And I'm happy you brought "the military" in... because they are, actually, fascists (well, "controlled" fascism... they're conditioned only to a certain point). But look again at how "the individual" responds when put in training... he acts out, strives to be "unique"... and is punished for that. Do note, that people who initially join the military undergo "conditioning". They're not actually being trained, they're being stripped of individuality such that they respond in accordance to protocol.

From my interpretation of KD politics, they follow a structure even more pronounced than the military, which is what causes the problem. Do you know, that fascists actually feel good about doing morally wrong actions? A reference to fictional material, but "A Few Good Men" actually was about fascism in the military. The "Code Red" actually is an example of what happens under fascism... and note how the Cadets felt that they had done right! That they were justified in their actions. I think other studies showed that even after being unconditioned, fascists actually could not understand what was wrong with their past actions, but could understand the wrong in present actions.

So you see, fascism is far more complex than a simple dictatorship, a monarchy or oligarchy... there is a level of complexity here that creates something truly fascinating. But am I wrong to proclaim that an individual will unconditionally resist becoming a fascist? No. This problem actually occurred because a KD took an "Individual" in before conditioning him to work within the KD. The same happens with military (and even transfers of "good men" [though I'm uncertain of the extent]) these transferee's undergo reconditioning to operate within the new unit.

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Originally Posted by raviy

You are wrong. It rarely happens, which is the reason for this outrage. I thank the stars that the majority of the world understands hierarchy and the need to respect the chain of command. I shudder to think what kind of world we'd live in otherwise.

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One of the interesting things about fascism is there IS no "chain of command." Seriously. Fascism is very hive minded, people act in accordance to appeasing their "leader," but their leader is more a symbolic representation than an actual leader. While the leader does give orders, and the people do follow them to the letter... if the leader were to give orders that conflict with their conditioning doctrine, they would begin to question their leader and eventually denounce him as a "false leader" and one of their own would become the new leader. (notice, the change in leadership does not bring an end to the regime.)


One might make a remark that they would never disobey their monarch, or even refute my above claims of military fascism. What if the Monarch, mid war, were to give orders for every prov to release all offense? If your response isn't "Hallo you're an idiot" then you're not a fascist. But what if that were to happen? Would you do it? What if you were about to win the war, everyone knew this, and because of that order you lost? (given that your intention was to win). What if a series of equally poor decisions lead to further failures?

Or if your superior officer had turn chicken mid war, and was planning to defect. What, do you assume, would happen if his platoon were to discover this? Do you assume that they'd obey his orders to defect, that it was in their best interests? Or do you assume that they'd string him up by his entrails and leave him to be feasted upon by animals? Fascism is very hive minded, so if your CO were to order you, as an individual, to do something, it's not the same thing.

In a dictatorship, that simply would not matter. People make actions based on their fear of contesting them. You'd be terrified to disobey your superior, if he wants to defect, even if you know that its wrong, you'd defect with him... and no one would try to stop him because they don't actually realize that NO ONE except him, wants to defect.... and thus that they are all alone in their discontent.


So, drawing this minor deviation to a close... You wouldn't disobey your boss because your boss is a dictator... you fear the repercussions of your actions, and feel alone in your grievances (a.k.a why employers hate unions). But you would disobey your commanding officer, were the circumstances proper.


*that really was much longer and broader than intended*

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Originally Posted by Nuriho

just ignore hallo, as he ignores what is said in this thread unless it helps him troll. In not responding to DHaran's reasoning about the subject, Hallo stays off subject and quotes something unrelated and doesn't address what was said to him and asked to refute; multiple times.

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A) I don't avoid a discussion about a topic, I expand upon it, divulge myself into its intricacies, and expose the inherent flaws.
It is true, that to do this, I must often divert the discussion... but what use would having a discussion be if the very best anyone could expect of me was a minor statement denouncing you all without explanation thenceforth?

But, if you're referring to my activity as of late... I've been doing "opinion" posts, not debates. I don't respond to said posts because, well... they bore me. In fact, I pretty much forget about them because the arguments are rather mundane.

This, however, is interesting.


B) DHaran was fully addressed. He claimed "yes, KD's are fascists... but that is the best way"... my claim was simply that "when you use a fascist social order, the individual is likely to act out in unpredictable ways". He has yet to respond.

C) Simply because you are unable to follow my parallels does not mean they're non-sequitor. Take Socrates as an example. He would introduce a parallel on a non-related subject, such that his opponent does not recognize the correlation; secure a statement of accord from his opponent, and then reveal the correlation thereby demonstrating his opponent had refuted his own argument. Now, not everyone could follow said parallels, but that doesn't mean he was "off topic" it only means he saw things in a much grander scope.

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Originally Posted by Sashdev

He was not told to leave. They simply approached him with a PM asking him why is he ALWAYS late for waves and his attacks. Then all of a sudden he just defects.

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From what I had read, I was under the impression they were doing exactly as I specified. Not that he had merely left with no plausible reason. Granted, I had only taken in a quarter of said posts, weighing more to those over 1 paragraph... but this is the first I had read that the KD had simply inquired about his tardiness, rather than requested him leave as a result.

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Originally Posted by Mad_Scottish

Hallo, you are fantastic as vomiting the definitions of facism, anarchy and what not. None of which as any relevance to any sort of discussion that has taken place. You threw facism into the hat as a tag for the way the kingdom was acting in behalf to the apparent events that took place, that lead up to grime defecting the province. Within a small fact of what facism is, it can be used as a basic definition of how top end kingdoms are run within the game. Single strong leader (monarch), everyone following that single leader, to the requirements, specifications and orders of that leader.

You have run off on a complete tangent about the theory itself, which isnt even remotely the issue. Your above point about a contract and the restrictions on the individual being unamerican, this isnt america, this isnt even remotely a country or nation state in any fashion. Its a very clear cut situation, grime joined a kd, he was told the requirements, he failed to meet them, he was asked why he was failing to meet them and threw a hissy fit and defected a province, which wasnt his in the fist place. It was a petty and really childish act, given the fact that he accepted to be part of that kingdoms. No one is putting a gun to anyones head, no families are being threatened, you either do your job or you are replaced.

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A) Comprehending a political structure is crucial to debating the implications of it. Are you thus saying, if someone were to portray a complete absence of basic utopian knowledge, your solution would be to simply call them a noob and carry on? You would not attempt to explain their misconceptions, their wrong doings? What if the community were to agree with this person you had called a noob, and thence lashed out at you? Would you not make an attempt to justify your response?

B) ""Single strong leader (monarch), everyone following that single leader, to the requirements, specifications and orders of that leader.""
Ignoring the inherent flaw, that fascism is neither monarchy nor dictatorship. I ask this: What is your intent? You admit that my argument is concise and comprehensible by reiterating that which I said, thus leaving me with the perplexing notion that you're indicating that the only social order a KD can have is fascism.

Certainly, you did not mean to say this. I would believe, that anyone who took the time to digest my vomit would have found it quite delectable...

What of a pseudo-democracy?
A central figure still leads, but rules by "favor of the people".
He encourages people to question his judgment, will make gestures to give people the impression that he's considering it, when he's really just ignoring it. (This does not mean he does not punish persistent dissent... only that he tolerates it's existence)
And, to regain the faith of the people, will do occasional grand gestures to instill a feeling of appeasement.

Look at Chavez, the "elected dictator", there's plenty of dissent... yet he stays in power, not with threats, but by getting the people to believe he actually cares.


C) I certainly did not say it was unamerican. I drew a parallel to a social system that advocates liberty. This was very finely said, to minimize the effective use of "american" as my reasoning. A social structure can exist anywhere, regardless of government... and a government can exist anywhere, regardless of boundaries.

D) True, the KD is unable to physically harm Grime. But they can do psychological damage... they can demean him or bring him to ridicule... they can continually op his province, they can have an alliance join in and help destroy his will to go on. Torture needs not come in the form of a gun, there are small subtleties that can have similar effects.

E) Given how much you seem to detest theorizing, you'll likely hate me for calling Utopia a Nation! Ask yourself this question, what defines a nation? Is it it's borders, or it's people? Can a nation exist without borders, without these physical constraints, and simply present itself as the collection of people it unites?

You issue these definitions as determinants, as if they have meaning. They do not. You may strive away from ideological discussions, yet you must acknowledge that our comprehension of reality is little more than the collection of our individual speculations and theories. You cannot issue summations that only state "this is how we saw the world before you came, this is how we shall see the world ad infinitum"; it's not objective! It doesn't even attempt to justify itself.

So thus, I ask. If your singular point is that "before hallo" the typical manner in which people who performed actions similar to grime was mass ridicule and insult... and that I do not have enough influence to change it... then what point do you really have?

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Originally Posted by Hallo

And I'm happy you brought "the military" in... because they are, actually, fascists (well, "controlled" fascism... they're conditioned only to a certain point).

One of the interesting things about fascism is there IS no "chain of command." Seriously.

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Right there. That shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

Obviously I raised the point about the military because it is a fascist system. You'll also note that fascism is the most efficient and effective system. Notwithstanding discontent, fascism is also the only system the military could possibly effectively operate under. Similarly in Utopia, kingdoms must necessarily be fascist. So if you can't see that, there's nothing more to say.

In the military, you don't disobey your CO, not because you fear the repercussions, but because you know that there is no other way. There must only be one plan. Similarly in a kingdom, I may want to run 0 thieves, or 120 DPA, but if my leadership tells me to run 20 DPA and 2 tpa I do it. Why? Because if I don't, there won't be a cohesive plan, and that'll create a point of weakness which the enemy kingdom can exploit. If I want to run prop ops for honour while my leadership gives me a nightstrike target, running my prop ops anyway would be irresponsible, selfish, and ergo morally wrong. If my leadership tells the kingdom to chain the monarch and I want to max gain, I do what the leadership says regardless. That is the only way a kingdom in Utopia can function effectively, and that is the only way the military can function effectively.

You bring up examples of defection, which is not in the general aim of the military, and thus your example is irrelevant. Notice how in my first post, I said it was morally wrong. By subverting orders, you threaten every man in your platoon, every man in your kingdom, when in fact there is a much easier way to resolve differences, in a way that no one would come to further harm.

I welcome dissent. Dissent is integral for the leadership to form a solid plan, generally with popular support. But when the leadership makes a decision, I expect everyone to sit down, shut up, and do as told. As I've shown above, there can be no other way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DjTeddySpin

Its just a difference between the mindset of a Top KD and someone who has never played in one. I agree that it can be harsh at times, but its been proven that Facism > Democracy. Look at the ranks if you have time, thats how the top KDs does things so if you don't like it, don't be part of it.

You can think that your political ideals are correct, but we are talking about efficiency and what works here.

I am not refering to Grace but as a general point of view, I would think that how the leadership/council bring their message forward is also very important. I know of this ef-up monarch in one of the top KD i was in being so hot-tempered he just keeps *****ing about every single thing, it just makes you want to bash him up or get back at him. For the player, you don't care if you screw his age. For the monarch, you sow what you reap. The top KD I was in looks pretty lousy now, though still in chart.

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To try and clean up this big mess I've made... let me explain.
I feel the way Grime acted was perfectly normal... and thats why I support him.

All of this explanation of what fascism is, how it works... the point is simply to get you all to understand something that many keep indicating that they do not. My alternative of a "pseudo-democracy", while it does not have many of the added benefits of fascism, does allow people to be easily admitted into a KD... while fascism inherently resists their admittance from both the KD and the individual admitted.

And those are truths! I can keep explaining on and on, exposing the flaws in your logic or explaining your misconceptions... and you STILL WON'T GET IT.


People will persist in the idea that what Grime did is unacceptable BECAUSE THEY'RE CONDITIONED TO! And I can issue argument against argument compounding upon how it is exactly what will happen, yet they will continue to refute it because, they're conditioned to!

*err, make a note. This doesn't mean what he did wasn't bad... but the severity of the backlash indicates a very high level of intolerance.*

It's a really awesome situation. My extensive repertoire against your simple conditioning... which will win out... well, we both know that one.



But, if you want me to say "fascism is okay, because people... secretly... want to be fascists" then you will not get it. I know that the efficiency of a fascist society cannot be competed with, but I also know of the people that it hurts, and how unstable it actually is. I know that my proposed pseudo-democracy has inherent flaws... and I know that said pseudo-democracy is just as likely to revert back to fascism. There's not much you can actually do.

But, oh well... this has been fun!

Oh bother!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raviy

In the military, you don't disobey your CO, not because you fear the repercussions,

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Please re-read said quote.
I clearly specified that Dictatorship and Fascism are NOT the same system. I explained the differences between the two, and I explained what would happen if the Military were a Dictatorship. There is no reason you should be making this sort of response.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raviy

but because you know that there is no other way. There must only be one plan. Similarly in a kingdom, I may want to run 0 thieves, or 120 DPA, but if my leadership tells me to run 20 DPA and 2 tpa I do it. Why? Because if I don't, there won't be a cohesive plan, and that'll create a point of weakness which the enemy kingdom can exploit. If I want to run prop ops for honour while my leadership gives me a nightstrike target, running my prop ops anyway would be irresponsible, selfish, and ergo morally wrong. If my leadership tells the kingdom to chain the monarch and I want to max gain, I do what the leadership says regardless. That is the only way a kingdom in Utopia can function effectively, and that is the only way the military can function effectively.

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The efficiency of fascism doesn't come from the "chain of command", if you'd take a gander at what I wrote, you'd understand that. It comes from the fact that all these people are acting as one. The whole "Hive Mind" effect, it makes it so they do your orders before you even give them.

This is actually one of the most difficult things to explain... but they know what you expect of them, and they know how to do it... such that you only need say "destroy that province" and all the cogs and gears will start turning and within a matter of moments said province will be destroyed. You don't need to assign task-leaders, you don't need to tell anyone what to do... they all know what to do, and they do it... very systematically. The only thing you need to do is sit there and watch it happen, and give praise where praise is warranted. You really have to see it from the outside to understand how beautiful it really is.


A small note, you're attempting to portray "the individual" as an inherently selfish person. But the fact is that the monarch is not all knowing... "the individual" may actually know better than the monarch. Lets take that order to "destroy that province"... what do you imagine would happen if they failed to destroy it? They'd get all gloomy and ask the monarch what they did wrong. But an individual may actually have noticed an inherent flaw with the plan and devised a plan, that if were implemented, said province would have been destroyed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raviy

You bring up examples of defection, which is not in the general aim of the military, and thus your example is irrelevant.

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I offered that example along side a second example to illustrate differences. I'll skip all the jabber and get to the point.

Fascism: Hive Mind, Has a "Figure Head" Leader, Persists Without Leader Due to Unionization
Dictatorship: Isolating, Has a Strong Leader, Can Fall Apart If People Unionize

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raviy

Notice how in my first post, I said it was morally wrong.

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Which is why I thought that, instead of simply raving about it, you'd agree that the platoon would reject said leader and establish a new one. It really is very simple and you're just restating what I had said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raviy

I welcome dissent. Dissent is integral for the leadership to form a solid plan, generally with popular support.
But when the leadership makes a decision, I expect everyone to sit down, shut up, and do as told.
As I've shown above, there can be no other way.

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Then you're... not fascist. Not completely anyways. You're actually following the pseudo-democracy I had proposed.
where there is dissent, there is individualism. Thats is the entire point of letting people express their views.

But, if this is a pseudo-permittance where you "say" you tolerate it, but really don't care and will tell said person to shut up if "it is not the right time" then allowing people to voice their dissent is actually a meaningless gesture that makes you far closer to an authoritarian dictator...


w/e really...


Wow...

I think I broke a personal record for sheer amount of text written over a singular point "one after another"

1. So earlier I quoted you saying that (a) The military is fascist. (b) There is no chain of command in fascism.
You have not provided anything to reconcile those two points, for as far as I can see, there is a chain of command in the military, and you have thus stated something that is contradictory.

2. Your label of pseudo-democracy, if I understand from the definition of "pseudo", being false, has little merit insofar as the mere title suggests an appearance of democracy without it actually being democratic. My understanding is that your "proposed" system is a subset of fascism. In fact, the distinctions you're drawing between fascism and dictatorship is inherently flawed. Go back to political theory 101. Fascism is an authoritarian hierarchical government. Dictatorship is a government where there is a single person with ultimate authority. These two are not mutually exclusive, and from what I can see, you are making inferences based on flawed premises.

3. No, the platoon would not simply reject the said leader. You're simplifying a complex theory of revolution. I suggest you read some Marx and Durkheim.

4. You failed to understand what I meant about following the leadership's directions being the only way. Even if the individual has a better plan than leadership. Not having the entire kingdom executing the leadership's plan and having stray provinces run the plans of that individual severely diminishes the effectiveness of both. If province A is a much better chain target than province B, and leadership orders the kingdom to chain province B, it is grossly unhelpful for myself and/or several other kingdom mates to chain province A instead.

You, in supporting Grime, are supporting the idea that those in the armed forces need not obey their COs due to the nature of the hierarchical structure. That I have a problem with. Soldiers knew, or should have known, what they were signing up for, and to subvert the authority to which they pledged obedience, is an inexcusable moral wrong.

I've been at this too long... so lets cut to the chase.

1. I said that the military had a "controlled' facisim... I then further edified you by telling you that the hierarchy was imposed, rather than inherent.
It's there if you read it.


2.
Fascism HAS NO Hierarchy!
Seriously, where do these kids come up with this?

Read up on what you're arguing from veritable sources (Wikipedia is not a veritable source).
Fascism is very very different from a dictatorship... just as a dictatorship is very very different from a monarchy, and just as a monarchy is very very different from a democracy. You're blatantly ignoring everything about them with the exception of "Has a central leader... he rules".

So, READ what I wrote, or READ A BOOK! I cannot educate those who will not help themselves.


And a Pseudo-Democracy is VERY different from BOTH a dictatorship and a Fascist Regime! You simply don't understand WHY... and the reason, I guess, is because you know absolutely nothing about psychology. If you can't understand my argument's components, then I certainly can't bring you to enlightenment!



3.
So you're saying that Marx was a "revolutionist" and that what he wrote about was... "revolution". Oh the hilarity! You could easily argue you're right, but "revolutionist" is just a broad term that heck, even SOCRATES was a revolutionist, he wanted to induce mass change! Bill Gates! Revolutionist. Isaac Newton! Galleo! Einstien! Name one person who HASN'T inspired change.


Nope, this is no revolution, this is MUTINY! Revolution invokes change, where as mutiny simply invokes a change in leadership.

And would it happen as I said? Given the soldiers were properly conditioned, I can guarantee it.
It's all there under "fascism"... and "conditioning" and even "puppet leaders"... if you'd read it.


4.
And you had intentionally set a situation to demonstrate that the individual is the weak point.
I know exactly what you mean. You don't know what I mean.

And, in fact... if you, as the individual, managed to get everyone to chain B instead of A... you would have demonstrated you uberness and won the game!



5.
I am supporting that Grime acted as an individual... he acted the way anyone would have acted
You don't support him because you're a fascist. You hate individualism and you want people to act as one.

Nothing you can ever say will hold more weight than what I just said.

1 & 2. Again, you stated that fascism has no hierarchy. You stated that the military has a controlled fascism. I'm assuming that this "controlled fascism" of which you speak is a subset of fascism. It is thus possible for fascism to have a hierarchy. Hey look, you fail. Hmm. By your definition, Nazi Germany, Italy under Mussolini, were not fascist, since there was a hierarchical system as military service was required and social classes were set by those means. I think the vast majority of historians would disagree with you. Also, you're suggesting that fascism and dictatorship are mutually exclusive, which suggests that a fascist dictatorship does not exist. Maybe you need to get a clue.

3. Marx wrote about a great many things. One of which was the means by which governmental structure can be changed. Stop being dense.

4. I'm assuming the leadership themselves wouldn't listen to the individual, so clearly there would necessarily be a lack of unity in that situation... which was my point.

5. Anyone would have acted the way Grime acted? As clearly he is not indicative of the population of Utopia, as top kingdoms don't have people defecting every other day, and in fact it is a rarity, I don't see how you can make that assertion. You still have not dealt with "You, in supporting Grime, are supporting the idea that those in the armed forces need not obey their COs due to the nature of the hierarchical structure. That I have a problem with. Soldiers knew, or should have known, what they were signing up for, and to subvert the authority to which they pledged obedience, is an inexcusable moral wrong."

raviy, you're arguing with somebody who's philosophy is that the internet makes no money... LOL.

After you read that blurb, you will understand that he lives in a completely diferent world than ours. So no wonder he has that mentality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hallo

To try and clean up this big mess I've made... let me explain.
I feel the way Grime acted was perfectly normal... and thats why I support him.

All of this explanation of what fascism is, how it works... the point is simply to get you all to understand something that many keep indicating that they do not. My alternative of a "pseudo-democracy", while it does not have many of the added benefits of fascism, does allow people to be easily admitted into a KD... while fascism inherently resists their admittance from both the KD and the individual admitted.

And those are truths! I can keep explaining on and on, exposing the flaws in your logic or explaining your misconceptions... and you STILL WON'T GET IT.


People will persist in the idea that what Grime did is unacceptable BECAUSE THEY'RE CONDITIONED TO! And I can issue argument against argument compounding upon how it is exactly what will happen, yet they will continue to refute it because, they're conditioned to!

*err, make a note. This doesn't mean what he did wasn't bad... but the severity of the backlash indicates a very high level of intolerance.*

It's a really awesome situation. My extensive repertoire against your simple conditioning... which will win out... well, we both know that one.



But, if you want me to say "fascism is okay, because people... secretly... want to be fascists" then you will not get it. I know that the efficiency of a fascist society cannot be competed with, but I also know of the people that it hurts, and how unstable it actually is. I know that my proposed pseudo-democracy has inherent flaws... and I know that said pseudo-democracy is just as likely to revert back to fascism. There's not much you can actually do.

But, oh well... this has been fun!

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Hi,

i didn't say anything about grime being right or wrong o.o
I was merely enforcing on the fact that fascism is practised, and its shown an efficiency greater than democracy or any other ideology people have comed up with. I get where you're coming from, but I seen both side.

To the top tiered KDs its like running a Grand Taxi company. You rent out Porsche Taxis. For the Drivers its never really their car, but the company's.