AMA vs sanct round 2

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Originally Posted by jdorje

Ceasefire was resecured 4 days ago, and Sanc and Mom were ceasefired for that duration. This was shown on your kd page, and should have been pretty evident to you. That logic does not hold, as it would imply that you would never be able to fight another kingdom this age since you're never going to ceasefire Sanc. However I now do understand why you never asked us for a ceasefire (which we'd happily have done), since you were trying to abuse your fake clause to claim that Havoc could never notice you until you ceasefired us, even though we weren't in declare range and hadn't fought in 4 days.

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We are in declare range. Just get max meter and we will war again.
Accuse us in "run from havoc" is nonsense. WE didn't start ops/hits vs you to can run. We was ready to CF you, if you drop dragon project vs us.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

Ceasefire was resecured 4 days ago, and Sanc and Mom were ceasefired for that duration. This was shown on your kd page, and should have been pretty evident to you. That logic does not hold, as it would imply that you would never be able to fight another kingdom this age since you're never going to ceasefire Sanc. However I now do understand why you never asked us for a ceasefire (which we'd happily have done), since you were trying to abuse your fake clause to claim that Havoc could never notice you until you ceasefired us, even though we weren't in declare range and hadn't fought in 4 days.

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That's some interesting spin, I see you guys have been thinking about how to sell this for a while. First off, it's not a fake clause, it's pretty clear. The fact that it might contain a loophole that could keep Havoc from ever giving notice is just them being sloppy. MA clearly intended to resolve with you, get notice, and fight Havoc. If you weren't trying to powerplay, MA would not be 'dodging' as you claim.

Sanc has the button. Question is, will they push it again?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWesQ-GHVoE

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Originally Posted by goodz

As for allies its not like absalom is the only alliance. We just tag. AMA as far as I can tell is allied with Simians/Ghetto cats?/beastblood/ex nihilo? I was told at start of age it was beastblood/simians/AMA/ex nihilo/bio? but not sure who is actually helping with that and who is just rumour. We were waved early by simians who stated they did it to help AMA for example. That is more coordinated effort to delay KD's then any abs did this age. I assume beastblood was likely asked to delay rage also. We just won both wars so now we are biggerish still. Anywho I have done my best to be fair all age. I think absalom in my first age here in general goes over the top to promote fairness. If I was solo I would have nap broke AMA ages ago for intel leaking me! But I in past have generally played a bit loose.

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Or they just hate Absalom enough that they would rather see anyone else win regardless of who that is.
IF abs was all about fairness you would have disbanded long ago, Abs is about being "fair" to Abs and only about being "fair" to Abs, don't try to convince yourself of anything else and don't insult the intelligence of anyone else by trying to delude them that Abs is about being fair to anyone other than Abs.

That's a bold claim, if you were solo you wouldn't have the protection Abs provides so breaking nap would probably be a really bad idea since it would ensure no one would ever trust you again meaning you would be a pariah and people would likely vulture you left and right.

Remember the old saying, the enemy of my enemy is a friend, regardless of whether MA/Simians/ghetto cats/beastblood/ex nihilo are allied or not they would seem like they were to abs because they are in the "everyone not Abs" category. If there were no Abs everything would be a lot more fluid but because there is Abs it will always end up being Abs vs everyone else, especially when viewed from within Abs.

Both sides trade dragons now.

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

If the CF expired YR8 I don't think the notice comes as a suprise to anyone, what is suprising is that sanct started to op MA right out of EOWCF according to elit, that is a clear intention to continue hostile activities.
Sanct can't possibly have been unaware that Havoc would notice and being in the same alliance and all it's a pretty safe assumption to say that Havoc knew what sanct was up to.
If your cf agreement with MA says anything about not noticing during EOWCF or hostilities then you should have made sure your alliance mate Sanct stay away from MA, if they intended to continue hostilities they would have told you so the only assumption one can make is that you intend do double hostile MA which is an utterly lame move, much more so than any target stealing could possibly ever be.

A technicality, MA didn't necessarily have to be watching you, they could just has easily have been watching the guy you accuse them of farming, targets are relatively scarce and any big target loosing land and/or nw is bound to be noticed.

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I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

I asked elit to go try to cf them and he waved them instead. I do believe they had no intent of cfing them. I see no where in the clause that I have to wait until they re CF. In our week 4 cf he said that after we came to terms. It was never accepted. In our YR8 re CF it was never even mentioned. the only line in diplo was:

[17:42] <Elit> you cant give us notice if we got/give alredy notice from another abs/hoh kd before hostile/war/post war end

we gave them notice when hostile/war/post war ended.

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Originally Posted by DM_Benjamin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWesQ-GHVoE

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I think this one is more fitting :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdDZ34f7jM8

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Originally Posted by Elldallan

I think this one is more fitting :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdDZ34f7jM8

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More befitting just with less swagger. These days its all about half naked women banners and comparisons to the NBA, namely Phil Jackson and/or the Jordan era.

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Originally Posted by goodz

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

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He isn't claiming the robbing was a hostile act (although under the circumstances it was clearly a powerplay move, which may be considered inherently hostile), but that relations between the 2 KD's (sanc and ma) clearly haven't closed, and your CF agreement has specific requirements in that regard. And whatever your beliefs are, the reality is that it was Sanctuary's decision to re-initiate.

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for you and Havoc... you have been waiting patiently a long time. Would that I could, I'd bake you a cake.

Edit: If you knew the cf was not resolved post war, and that Sanc had intentions to rob MA, how can you 'fully believe' that was MA's secret evil plan? Was a cf offer rejected by MA? And just because someone isn't your ally, it doesn't make them your enemies ally. Coming from someone in the only real alliance around that could come off a bit absolutely retarded.

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Originally Posted by goodz

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

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I have nap only with rage, so pre-age nap claim is wrong.
Rob is hostile action and i never told other. I dont controll server and cant tell one or another kd/prov to rob or not rob you. There is main difference in this situations. Every one know we are going to hostile/war soon and your ally decide to rob us, send dragon now for give you advantage. Giving notice few min before/after they start it dont change fact we are in hostile. Refusing reset notice just show you planed it together.

haha ....this gonna be a situation similar to last age Beastblood stalling Rage for crown competition.

I think I've seen this strat before... once upon a dream.

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Originally Posted by goodz

I fully believe they decided not to CF sanctuary at any point because they intended to go for them after eow rather then go for us. Although I have no way to prove. Their alllie (although perhaps not formal but pre age nap) robs us constantly. We do complain because it is lame. But elit himself said robbing is not a hostile action.

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hmm if Elit thinks hostile is not a hostile act then why would he targetshare(altho the taunt banner might have been there first) why wouldn't he just take the gc himself? The ingame cf is just a mere formality

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Originally Posted by goodz

I asked elit to go try to cf them and he waved them instead. I do believe they had no intent of cfing them. I see no where in the clause that I have to wait until they re CF. In our week 4 cf he said that after we came to terms. It was never accepted. In our YR8 re CF it was never even mentioned. the only line in diplo was:

[17:42] <Elit> you cant give us notice if we got/give alredy notice from another abs/hoh kd before hostile/war/post war end

we gave them notice when hostile/war/post war ended.

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I have to admit that it's quite possible they intended to go for sanct first, only Elit and possibly others in MA can know whether that's true or not. But I doubt they intended to avoid you for long, unless sanct would push the button(and I don't see how sanct would do that unless dorje suddenly went insane) there is no way they're gonna steal enough acres from sanct to pull away from you so they knew you were coming for them sooner or later.
Be a nice guy and let them play out their little spectacle with sanct and give notice after that, unless it's some long notice(like 72h+) they'll still be depleted after sanct and you would potentially win more acres, besides if you win then no one can claim victory was gained unfairly. :)
If you double hostile them there will be massive whining on the forum for ages to come which gets tedious rather quickly.

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Originally Posted by Syntico

I think I've seen this strat before... once upon a dream.

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I cant believe its was done before :P

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Originally Posted by Elitbg

We was ready to CF you, if you drop dragon project vs us.

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And we was ready to CF you. But neither side asked for a ceasefire.

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Originally Posted by CJay

Sanc has the button. Question is, will they push it again?

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We do not have the button. If we did, their fat cow would be dead. We've always been very careful of waving kingdoms who are not in war range, since there's no exit strategy for either kingdom and unless you have an overwhelming advantage there's a good chance it won't end well. Mom made a major mistake in waving a kingdom not in declare range who has more military.

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Originally Posted by ZodZilla

I see you guys have been thinking about how to sell this for a while.

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Yeah, we've had 8 hours since you didn't train anything in postwar and then waved us, to think about what we'd do if you didn't train anything in postwar and then waved us.

Don't break CFs, then I'm sure people will be ready to ask nicely.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

And we was ready to CF you. But neither side asked for a ceasefire.



We do not have the button. If we did, their fat cow would be dead. We've always been very careful of waving kingdoms who are not in war range, since there's no exit strategy for either kingdom and unless you have an overwhelming advantage there's a good chance it won't end well. Mom made a major mistake in waving a kingdom not in declare range who has more military.

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y u mad tho?

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Originally Posted by jdorje

We do not have the button.

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Care to further explain to the good people exactly why you don't have the button, and how you and your alliance buddies feel about this situation with regards to waving into a 'hostile'?

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Originally Posted by ZodZilla

Care to further explain to the good people exactly why you don't have the button

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From the war page:

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We are not currently at war.

When hostilities are high, and certain conditions are met, it is possible to declare war. Only the less hostile of two kingdoms has the right to declare war. Currently, there are no kingdoms that you are permitted to declare war on.

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Maybe you could do some sleuthing and see if you can figure out why. But I'm guessing since your cow left a defense that most of our kingdom can easily break, you already know.

Odd, I asked you to explain to everyone but me (i.e. the 'good' people), but instead you just dodge, then target share like a hypocrite. It's almost like you've done this before.

Oh, the GOOD people! Most of them probably don't need an explanation though, since they know you can only declare between 75% and 133% of your networth.

Alright, we're halfway there :)

I mean, don't get me wrong... it's not like I'm saying a statement like "We don't have the button" is both accurate AND purposefully misleading... I'm just silly about the details and such.

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Originally Posted by Darkz Azn

i guess telling elf to ops/steal from sanc during the war was hardy intentional :)

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:-|

I do as i choose, ive never spoken to anybody in Mothers Advice. I never opped into their War. I have never stolen gold coins from abs (my tpa is too low unfortunately).

Why do you talk bullocks?

It is in no way misleading to say we don't have the button. We cannot declare. The checkbox-and-button ("the button") that allows war declaration is not available to us ("we don't have it").

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Originally Posted by ZodZilla

He isn't claiming the robbing was a hostile act (although under the circumstances it was clearly a powerplay move, which may be considered inherently hostile), but that relations between the 2 KD's (sanc and ma) clearly haven't closed, and your CF agreement has specific requirements in that regard. And whatever your beliefs are, the reality is that it was Sanctuary's decision to re-initiate.

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for you and Havoc... you have been waiting patiently a long time. Would that I could, I'd bake you a cake.

Edit: If you knew the cf was not resolved post war, and that Sanc had intentions to rob MA, how can you 'fully believe' that was MA's secret evil plan? Was a cf offer rejected by MA? And just because someone isn't your ally, it doesn't make them your enemies ally. Coming from someone in the only real alliance around that could come off a bit absolutely retarded.

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I told them to re CF sanc and I would restart 48 from then. They did not make any attempt to CF them. They did threaten some sort of alliance action...

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Originally Posted by ZodZilla

Odd, I asked you to explain to everyone but me (i.e. the 'good' people), but instead you just dodge, then target share like a hypocrite. It's almost like you've done this before.

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How long have you been warring you dont know the war range needed to declare?

And contrary to belief, there is an aabs alliance every age. A few ages ago it was filled with Pulse, Bio, Inso & OS/Tivoli. You can add in Simians on per age basis since they are barely tolerable even for aabs. I don't know if Tivoli is still in because I was pissed off that despite a kd merger we had to receive backlash for baka's/flogger's actions to SPGC and we've never been that friendly with Elit's kd when I was in it but that could have changed since I've left.

Obviously that would have changed this age to reflect current kd's which can affect the crown race. To purely state that there isn't an alliance of some sort by aabs is a lie. :)

Btw Elit you steal from multiple kd's all the time 1 incident being my kd when you were supposed hostile with another. So if you currently say stealing is a hostile action why was it right during that period but wrong in this period? I'm just looking for consistency here and it's been hard to track since what you say and do change every age.

Also if you received a notice from Havoc you can't run off and wave Sanc to runaway. That's the same situation Simians got themselves into when they noticed 3 kd's.

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Originally Posted by jdorje

Maybe you could do some sleuthing and see if you can figure out why. But I'm guessing since your cow left a defense that most of our kingdom can easily break, you already know.

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Not like your cows have much more def :P
When both kds have max meter war will start. I believe sanctuary is active enough to make it.

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Originally Posted by goodz

I told them to re CF sanc and I would restart 48 from then. They did not make any attempt to CF them. They did threaten some sort of alliance action...

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There is no point to CF them after they robed us. Its not like they lack gold. This was direct action to weak us before our incoming hostile with you. Give us 200 mill gold and we can cf Sanctuary soon.

this is way too much already.
i played long time with Elit but now i cannot keep my mouth shut, the utopian community must know.
Elit and jdorje are both nicknames of one guy. Elit is the biggest cheater in the utopia for the last
decade for sure and i dont know why Bishop doesnt act!
Sanctuary is actually the landfarm of all Elit Projects, dont u realise this?
Nexus, Dreams, now AMA, even his smaller projects like Random Friends of whatever it was - always they
win by harvesting their FARM! THey dont farm out Simians or Fratzia or Mercy or Jerks - no, back to back
they farm only SANC and now they are scared that havoc are too close and they want 20-30k more acres.
Come on guys, think - none can prove that Elit=/=jdorje
its same guy i tell u
cheater he is
farmer he is
Bishop - delete, have balls!

shush, now i released that burden from my arms...

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Originally Posted by Vivic

this is way too much already.
i played long time with Elit but now i cannot keep my mouth shut, the utopian community must know.
Elit and jdorje are both nicknames of one guy. Elit is the biggest cheater in the utopia for the last
decade for sure and i dont know why Bishop doesnt act!
Sanctuary is actually the landfarm of all Elit Projects, dont u realise this?
Nexus, Dreams, now AMA, even his smaller projects like Random Friends of whatever it was - always they
win by harvesting their FARM! THey dont farm out Simians or Fratzia or Mercy or Jerks - no, back to back
they farm only SANC and now they are scared that havoc are too close and they want 20-30k more acres.
Come on guys, think - none can prove that Elit=/=jdorje
its same guy i tell u
cheater he is
farmer he is
Bishop - delete, have balls!

shush, now i released that burden from my arms...

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Proteus is under my control too :P

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Originally Posted by tak3shi

How long have you been warring you dont know the war range needed to declare?

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You misunderstood.

Goodz, you say we are allys with a bunch of kds. I ask, did you see any action fro AMA, or did anyone from AMA told you we are allys with those kds? Cause from what i see you tell us X number of kds told you they help us, X number of random noobs try to mess with Abs and you assume we have something to do with it despite the lack of any actions from us supporting those kds? It will not be the first nor the last age some attention seekers will try to ruin Absalom and i think Uto doesnt require AMA to exist to have it. So i suppose it is quite safe to assume we have nothing to do with them nor we are target sharing.

Second of all it is a bit too late to cf sanc as they took couple of hundred millions+some land. How would you go away from the "alliance powerplay" accusations if we simply let them do that and then war you? For everyone is better if we finish our quarrel with them first.

As for the old school saying "you had millions with 0 thieves". I already said any other situation it would be ok. I mean, i agree it is not right in general, but knowing your ally will notice asap makes the act pretty immoral. Not to mention Havoc have billions atm and I don't see them complain an "ally" kd of AMA is robbing them heavily...

So I'd say double hostile will be a pretty ****ty thing to do so let us resolve our differences with Sanctuary and there is enough time this age to war you.

This kingdom comes out of war with zillions of gc, no thief protection and they don't have CF in place with every threat.

Then they complain for being robbed.

Odd.

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Originally Posted by Elitbg

Not like your cows have much more def :P
When both kds have max meter war will start. I believe sanctuary is active enough to make it.




There is no point to CF them after they robed us. Its not like they lack gold. This was direct action to weak us before our incoming hostile with you. Give us 200 mill gold and we can cf Sanctuary soon.

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I offered you a cf for 50m gold earlyier.

but as i said you owe me 1500 acres and 50m gc. I don't really care how i get it.

As the late grate kernal sanders once said. "I'm to drunk to taste this chicken"

But in honesty this post is silly since im just drunk

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Originally Posted by csarmi

This kingdom comes out of war with zillions of gc, no thief protection and they don't have CF in place with every threat.

Then they complain for being robbed.

Odd.

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Multi post!

Csarmi! just put up a cow and lets let you win age? makes for more fun!

The most interesting part in here is how Sanc actually did intra-ally-farmed gold from their alliance mate imo.

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Originally Posted by tak3shi

And contrary to belief, there is an aabs alliance every age. A few ages ago it was filled with Pulse, Bio, Inso & OS/Tivoli. You can add in Simians on per age basis since they are barely tolerable even for aabs.

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Stupid statement and made up from tak3shis mind.

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Originally Posted by Soul_Hunter

Goodz, you say we are allys with a bunch of kds. I ask, did you see any action fro AMA, or did anyone from AMA told you we are allys with those kds? Cause from what i see you tell us X number of kds told you they help us, X number of random noobs try to mess with Abs and you assume we have something to do with it despite the lack of any actions from us supporting those kds? It will not be the first nor the last age some attention seekers will try to ruin Absalom and i think Uto doesnt require AMA to exist to have it. So i suppose it is quite safe to assume we have nothing to do with them nor we are target sharing.

Second of all it is a bit too late to cf sanc as they took couple of hundred millions+some land. How would you go away from the "alliance powerplay" accusations if we simply let them do that and then war you? For everyone is better if we finish our quarrel with them first.

As for the old school saying "you had millions with 0 thieves". I already said any other situation it would be ok. I mean, i agree it is not right in general, but knowing your ally will notice asap makes the act pretty immoral. Not to mention Havoc have billions atm and I don't see them complain an "ally" kd of AMA is robbing them heavily...

So I'd say double hostile will be a pretty ****ty thing to do so let us resolve our differences with Sanctuary and there is enough time this age to war you.

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Yes. Depending on formal requirements of alliance. For example people say HoH is allied with absalom. The requirement being that we have a NAP. If a NAP is the requirement then yes I would contest that Beastbloost/Simians/others are allied. I was told leaders of those kingdoms as well as some others idled in a channel. Their goal being to compete with absalom. They would work together to create favorable but still 1v1 match ups. Which as far as I am concerned is fair.

Denying the existance of a revial group of kingdoms to me seems silly. I played for a long time in "anti absalom" alliances. Be it Brute/Playboys/Heretics/ED or later with Covenent. The formality of tagging doesn't really matter. It is like if absalom didn't tag this wouldn't seem obvious to the casual viewer. You think I don't get robbed all the time. I think I can find 200m gc lost in the last 2 week without issue going through our paper. The game is what it is. The dirtiest age I ever played of utopia was in Cov competing against abs. This age if anything we put up with too much garbage. When I was in tics (mind you it was lead by realest and verm and they don't really compromise) if a KD behaved the way AMA has we would have nap broken and waved them weeks ago. But instead I just gave them like 4 weeks of notice letting them know I am breaking my CF with them as soon as possible as they are s****s.

Then the moment comes that I can finally break it and they wave my allies right after I notice them and claim I can't. I just don't really care. People can argue one side or the other until the end of times. I will go out and drink and our Kd will continue to float. But we will not float indefinitally will you wave a KD way smaller then you and explore up more big provs. :)

Also I am quite easily the worst leader in the top 10 so just leave me alone!

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Originally Posted by csarmi

This kingdom comes out of war with zillions of gc, no thief protection and they don't have CF in place with every threat.

Then they complain for being robbed.

Odd.

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We don't complain and its was result from some ppl drink so much and forgot to train up :)
There is one huge difference in all this story. Sanctuary had much more gold before rob us from now. Its clear they cant gain from it and this only help his alliance mates. Sanctaury started it and havoc send notice same time. Its clear 2vs1 don't matter how you define it. Havoc spend 7 weeks for pump and need this help make them (abs) look like bad losers. Sanctuary still make all what don't favor them but help havoc in long term. We will see how this will end but ABS prove again they cant compete 1vs1 and abuse deals when they meet strong opponent just to can win on any price.